Jesse Marcels seniors diaries found by his family

originally posted by: Blue Shift

Charles Berlitz and Bill Moore?

No, it comes from one of the people Brazel talked to, someone who asked him about little green men.
Because it was a quote, it may be in "Witness To Roswell".

originally posted by: Blue Shift
Charles Berlitz and Bill Moore?

July 6, 1947. While playing a record during his radio show, Frank Joyce called Sheriff Wilcox for any new news items. “Wilcox put Brazel on the telephone and Joyce interviewed him off the air. Joyce then suggested to Wilcox that the military be contacted.”

As we know later, base commander Blanchard wrote out a press release and gave it to Walter Haut who then gave it to radio announcer Frank Joyce. Joyce put the release out on the wire for the world to see.

Frank Joyce was first interviewed by Bill Moore in 1982.

“Moore asked Joyce if Brazel had mentioned bodies to him on the phone. Joyce's cryptic response was, I can't go into that. I don't want to say." Moore pressed for more, but Joyce concluded by saying, "I think I've said all I want to on that. I made up my mind a long time ago that I would only go so far with that part of the story. That rancher apparently died with what he knew.... Whatever that thing was, the rancher saw it all, and it didn't originate on this planet. What I heard later about the Air Force having bodies of little men from space... was totally consistent with what I had heard at the time."

Frank Joyce was interviewed again by Kevin Randle and Don Schmitt in 1989.

Joyce told them the same thing and also two other details. One, that there were several military men waiting in the lobby. And two,

“As he was leaving, Brazel turned and said, ‘You know how they talk about little green men? Well, they weren’t green.”

originally posted by: spiritualarchitect
a reply to: IMSAM

Brazel was interviewed at least 4 times. The Daily Record, the Joyce and the Whitmore are the consistent ones. After that Brazel was placed in military custody. As he says he was “put in jail” for “doing a good deed.”

The fourth interview on July 9th was done after he was released by the military jail. This is where his story changes. He was told what to say by a military that was trying to cover up the recovery of a crashed alien ship. That is why he found the wreckage earlier, as it had to coincide with their used balloons. And it had to be material that was NOT alien.

Common sense should tell you that the military would not be threatening civilians with death over items that were readily available at a dime store. Nor would they have their soldiers out at two separate sites picking up all the wreckage they could find and threatening civilians who had any of it.

The fourth interview was the cover-up interview so it is basically the hoax interview, where the military is hoaxing you into believing nothing happened.

As you have well noticed over the years, there is an ATS alien agenda here which attempts to divert the seeker from any belief in an alien presence on earth.

It is up to you to pick out which of your fellow posters are deceiving you.

You're spreading misinformation, not supporting disinformation, and need to research the entire event yourself a little deeper rather than allowing other people with a $ agenda make your mind up for you. This military escort portion was created after the fact and is hearsay with no supporting evidence. Read Brazels entire interview:


Now apply a little common sense yourself. It was said Brazel was seen around town with a military escort to make sure he was supporting the militarys version of a crashed weather balloon, including waiting outside for him during this interview. Then you have to ask yourself, if this was true, then why would Brazel make the following statement during his interview:

"I am sure what I found was not any weather observation balloon."

That goes against the military escort influencing Brazel to support the balloon story, doesn't it? This interview is all we have to go on as far as a first-hand recollection by Brazel at the time and "debunks" the military escort portion itself. It's only more garbage spread by those writing books or making money and those that unfortunately believe it without doing their own reseach or using their own common sense and logic.

originally posted by: spiritualarchitect
“As he was leaving, Brazel turned and said, ‘You know how they talk about little green men? Well, they weren’t green.”

Yes, it's fascinating hearsay and opinion, likely pumped up by the authors to make it sound like more than it was. I'm sure it was more compelling than, "I don't want to talk about aliens, because that whole crazy idea got way out of hand."

a reply to: Ectoplasm8

Yes I have read that and yes he did admit in the end it was not a balloon.
But the rest was what the military wanted him to say. It is a cover-up that goes against the interviews that went before it. The military seized the Whitmore interview and would not let him put it out. They then destroyed it.

It is the military that has the agenda and the resources and will to cover it up. And some of those on ATS support it.

Some people act like if you make money it must be fake. Some people want all UFO seekers to write books for free. It does not work that way. And it is not a crime to make money off of the truth.

a reply to: Blue Shift

As I said, the rest of you who have never seen one might want to start paying attention and stop discounting everything.

But thanks for pointing out that I waste my time here trying to help you guys get up to speed.

a reply to: spiritualarchitect
What about Brazel's daughter? Did she allegedly also get threatened and forced to tell a lie about what she saw? Have you read what she said about the debris field in her affidavit? She has first-hand knowledge and was there with her father, before the military even knew about it.

Roswell Incident

Bessie Brazel Schreiber (daughter of W.W. Brazel; 14 years old at the time of the incident). Affidavit dated September 22, 1993 .. " .. The debris looked like pieces of a large balloon which had burst. The pieces were small, the largest I remember measuring about the same as the diameter of a basketball. Most of it was a kind of double-sided material, foil-like on one side and rubber-like on the other. Both sides were grayish silver in color, the foil more silvery than the rubber. Sticks, like kite sticks, were attached to some of the pieces with a whitish tape. The tape was about two or three inches wide and had flowerlike designs on it. The 'flowers' were faint, a variety of pastel colors, and reminded me of Japanese paintings in which the flowers are not all connected. I do not recall any other types of material or markings, nor do I remember seeing gouges in the ground or any other signs that anything may have hit the ground hard. The foil-rubber material could not be torn like ordinary aluminum foil can be tom ••• "

originally posted by: spiritualarchitect
a reply to: Blue Shift

As I said, the rest of you who have never seen one might want to start paying attention and stop discounting everything.

But thanks for pointing out that I waste my time here trying to help you guys get up to speed.

Stories of people saying what they saw are just that, stories, even if people tell them with good intentions of what they truthfully think they saw. Stories are interesting, but they won't convince skeptics of extraordinary claims because they are not extraordinary evidence; what's needed to convince skeptics is some kind of evidence, so at least a good photo or three or some video would be a lot better than just a story, and then it would not be a "waste of time" as you put it. I think a lot of people come here looking for some good evidence, maybe some good photos or video at least. The old excuse of "I didn't have a camera with me" is hard to accept now when most people have smart phone cams with them at all times.

Even better would be for an abductee to steal the ashtray or anything not nailed down from the space ship, so a lab can analyze the isotopes in the ash tray.

originally posted by: spiritualarchitect
a reply to: Blue Shift

As I said, the rest of you who have never seen one might want to start paying attention and stop discounting everything.

But thanks for pointing out that I waste my time here trying to help you guys get up to speed.

You can't seriously expect us to just take you at your word, or anybody at their word, for that matter. The best way for you to help us "get up to speed" is to produce some good, hard, solid evidence that will stand up to independent analysis that in some way at least proves that something extraordinary is afoot. If somebody came up to you and said they got to ride on a magic carpet to a hidden kingdom in Alaska where all the insects are edible and everybody wears golden cactuses for hats, what would you like to see? A picture maybe? One of the golden cactus hats, at least!

You're right. You're in the position to educate us. But we're not just going to believe you. We're not idiots! Prove it up, man. That's all we're asking. We want it to be true! Make it easier on us, and you'll be the hero.

Otherwise, it's just stories. And there are thousands of stories on TV every day. Sorry, but that's the way it works.

a reply to: spiritualarchitect

Like I've said, you have to understand, a military escort is hearsay told decades later with zero supporting evidence. Therefore you have no choice but to hang onto hopeful belief rather than actual evidence. What we can do is read Brazels 1947 interview which is the only first-hand recollection at the time from him. Then see if that is consistent with a military influence and cover up before Friedman's 1978 sensationalized alien spacecraft spin. It is not, because Brazel would have never have said he didn't believe it was a weather balloon.

What it is consistent with is Brazel being 100% honest with his story. The debris he found was foreign not like any other weather balloon because in reality it wasn't. I believe it was an in between research/service/test flight that were being launched in conjunction with actual Mogul arrays. Also, every single piece he described in that interview is human made. This interview and materials described by Brazel, which were obviously human made, caused a problem for those pushing books and so forth for the alien agenda so this military escort had to be created. But for anyone with a bit of sense who took the time to read the interview, it ultimately goes against military influence.

Tell me what material Brazel described, which is basically the same as Marcel, would be exotic and alien:
Rubber
Tinfoil
Paper
Sticks
Scotch Tape
Eyelets

a reply to: Ectoplasm8

So, you believe the militery intentionally put out the story that it was a flying disc, or are you saying they really thought beams of wood, rubber and foil was a flying disc at first?

originally posted by: Jay-morris
a reply to: Ectoplasm8

So, you believe the militery intentionally put out the story that it was a flying disc, or are you saying they really thought beams of wood, rubber and foil was a flying disc at first?

I don't know why the military put out the story they did for sure, there are some ideas floating around, but here's my guess, and just a guess.

Brazel found some scattered junk, which he didn't think was too important, apparently remains of some kind of mogul-like balloon supporting some things, and his daugher clearly remembers the debris looking like a burst balloon and some other material that sounds a lot like Mogul type material, from her affidavit:

The debris looked like pieces of a large balloon which had burst. The pieces were small, the largest I remember measuring about the same as the diameter of a basketball. Most of it was a kind of double-sided material, foil-like on one side and rubber-like on the other. Both sides were grayish silver in color, the foil more silvery than the rubber. Sticks, like kite sticks, were attached to some of the pieces with a whitish tape. The tape was about two or three inches wide and had flowerlike designs on it.

Then Brazel mentioned it to some friends of his, and they suggested maybe it's one of those "discs" or the remains of it, and there was a $3000 reward for a disc, so he should try to collect the $3000.

So that is where I think the idea of "disc" came from, the reward mentioned by his friends for a disc, and it just snowballed from there with one party after another referring to it as a disc even though it wasn't exactly a disc.

I think the best evidence for my guess is the FBI memo, which says the Disc isn't even disc-shaped, it's hexagonal which I wouldn't call a disc, but again Brazel just called it that trying to collect some reward money for finding a "disc". This is the FBI memo, which describes the "disc":

vault.fbi.gov...


What that memo calls a disc and related materials sounds very much like a Mogul balloon array, and the same kind of material described by Brazel's daughter, so if the FBI can call that a "disc", why can't anybody else call it a disc too, including the military?

To put it another way, I think if there hadn't been a substantial reward offered for a "disc", that nobody would have called it a disc. But there was and Brazel did, and that's why, and others just followed Brazel's lead in what he called it, including in the FBI memo.

There are some theories about other reasons the military might have referred to that as a disc even if it matched the description in the FBI memo, and I wouldn't rule those out, but I think it could be as simple as what I just described.

a reply to: Arbitrageur

Do you think they could have put that story up, just to take it back down again, just to make other countries, esp countries like Russia, think that the US might actually have advanced technology?

Did the militery actually go to the site before the the fly disc story hit the paper? If so, there is no way in hell that they would mistake wooden beams, rubber and foil for a captured flying disc.

a reply to: Jay-morris

I agree with Arbitrageur above. The story begins with Brazel pushing aside the debris on June 14th having no meaning to him at the time and only returning a week and a half later after hearing of a reward being offered by newspapers and gathering some of the debris. Brazels disinterest in the beginning contradicts the properties of the material being built up to be fascinating and amazing. On June 14th, he had to physically pick up and move the material to another area because of the sheep he was herding. So any amazing properties would have been noted by gathering the debris. He didn't simply stand over and look at it. He never mentioned in his interview in 1947 anything about the amazing properties. And mentioning any exotic properties would have further set in stone the reward he was after.

So Brazel, not the military, begins the idea of a crashed disc. This is then taken to Roswell and told to the sheriff. The sheriff then calls Roswell Army Air Field and tells them Brazels story of a possible crashed disc. Marcel travels to the Foster ranch with the idea of a possible crashed disc. Upon seeing the crash, both Brazel (mentions previously) and Marcel seemed to be shocked by size of the debris field. It would have been foreign and unusual to them because they typically found small weather balloons with 1 or no radar target attached. Charles Moore was launching Mogul test flights NOT JUST full Mogul arrays at this exact time which he was testing balloons and their materials along with 1 to 4 radar targets attached to test ground radar reception. THIS would have left a large debris field upon crashing and something neither men had seen before.

I think the headline is the work of an overzealous small town newspaper writer and as Jesse Marcel put it:
"...meantime we had an eager-beaver public relations officer, he calls the AP about it and that's when it hit the fan"
Also, using the word "captured" in the headline, when nothing was captured, again shows how eager the newspaper was to make a story of this.

I've repeated this for years, there hasn't been a single piece of material described ever that is exotic and alien, not one piece. Every piece ever mentioned in 70 years of this tale is exactly what is used to construct radar targets and a supporting balloon. And this is the list of materials by the supporters of a crashed disc. I continue to shake my head in amazement that believers continue to believe this is only a coincidence, and an alien spacecraft is constructed exactly like human balloons and cargo during this exact time period and exact location of this crash. It's laughable, really.

originally posted by: Ectoplasm8
a reply to: Jay-morris

I agree with Arbitrageur above. The story begins with Brazel pushing aside the debris on June 14th having no meaning to him at the time and only returning a week and a half later after hearing of a reward being offered by newspapers and gathering some of the debris. Brazels disinterest in the beginning contradicts the properties of the material being built up to be fascinating and amazing. On June 14th, he had to physically pick up and move the material to another area because of the sheep he was herding. So any amazing properties would have been noted by gathering the debris. He didn't simply stand over and look at it. He never mentioned in his interview in 1947 anything about the amazing properties. And mentioning any exotic properties would have further set in stone the reward he was after.

So Brazel, not the military, begins the idea of a crashed disc. This is then taken to Roswell and told to the sheriff. The sheriff then calls Roswell Army Air Field and tells them Brazels story of a possible crashed disc. Marcel travels to the Foster ranch with the idea of a possible crashed disc. Upon seeing the crash, both Brazel (mentions previously) and Marcel seemed to be shocked by size of the debris field. It would have been foreign and unusual to them because they typically found small weather balloons with 1 or no radar target attached. Charles Moore was launching Mogul test flights NOT JUST full Mogul arrays at this exact time which he was testing balloons and their materials along with 1 to 4 radar targets attached to test ground radar reception. THIS would have left a large debris field upon crashing and something neither men had seen before.

I think the headline is the work of an overzealous small town newspaper writer and as Jesse Marcel put it:
"...meantime we had an eager-beaver public relations officer, he calls the AP about it and that's when it hit the fan"
Also, using the word "captured" in the headline, when nothing was captured, again shows how eager the newspaper was to make a story of this.

I've repeated this for years, there hasn't been a single piece of material described ever that is exotic and alien, not one piece. Every piece ever mentioned in 70 years of this tale is exactly what is used to construct radar targets and a supporting balloon. And this is the list of materials by the supporters of a crashed disc. I continue to shake my head in amazement that believers continue to believe this is only a coincidence, and an alien spacecraft is constructed exactly like human balloons and cargo during this exact time period and exact location of this crash. It's laughable, really.

See, this is where I have issues. So much is made of the fact that nothing exotic was found. Just foil, wooden beams and rubber. Items even back then, a person with half a brain would know this. Secondly, we then have to believe that Marcel mistook took this for some exotic flying disc?

It does not make sense, unless Marcel is lying. No way would he mistake rubber, wooden beams, and foil for an ET spacecraft.

I am not saying it's ET, but come on, something does not add up.

People say that Marcel was confused about what he saw because it was project Mogal, and he would not be used to seeing the properties that made up the balloon.

But here is the thing. People were saying the exact same thing when the explanation was a normal weather balloon, that he misidentified the properties.

I believe that what crashed in Roswell is still being hidden. I believe it's more likely to be a secret militery craft.

I just do not buy the project Mogal explanation, unless Marcel is lying.

But we will never know for sure.

a reply to: Jay-morris

Then it would have been the same coincidence of every bit of material ever mentioned matched an in between Mogul test flight, if it was "theirs" or ours. Far too coincidental for it to be anything else.

originally posted by: Jay-morris
a reply to: Arbitrageur

Do you think they could have put that story up, just to take it back down again, just to make other countries, esp countries like Russia, think that the US might actually have advanced technology?

Did the militery actually go to the site before the the fly disc story hit the paper? If so, there is no way in hell that they would mistake wooden beams, rubber and foil for a captured flying disc.

You call it a mistake. I say the "disk" term only started being used weeks earlier and nobody know what a "disk" really meant at that time, except that it was some kind of unknown airborne object. Even the "disks" or "saucers" that Kenneth Arnold reported were not shaped like a disk or a saucer, but they were still called flying saucers. Arnold described them as "bat-shaped" and "boomerang-shaped" and this is a model of what he says he saw:

badufos.blogspot.com...



So I think your mental imagery of what is or is not a disk is probably shaped by some modern bias, that wasn't in place at the time when Marcel recovered the debris, which according to his actual description was not very "disk-like" at all. So, maybe try to imagine the 1947 mindset instead and how the words used to describe UFOs were very loosely used and not accurate descriptions of the actual shape.

originally posted by: Jay-morris
I just do not buy the project Mogal explanation, unless Marcel is lying.

But we will never know for sure.

We do know for sure that Marcel lied at least once, or if you want to call it confused and unable to recall or convey the truth, you could say that, but effectively the only difference is in intent, not the result.

Marcel said the photo of him with the radar reflector debris in Ramey's office was some of the actual debris.
Marcel said the photo of him with the radar reflector debris in Ramey's office was not some of the actual debris.

Both of those statements cannot be true, so at least one of them is a lie.

Plus it's obvious Marcel's elevator didn't reach the top floor when he said he found a large debris field with lots of pieces of an indestructible material. For the people who can't see why that's an obvious self-contradiction, perhaps their elevator doesn't reach the top floor either.

The newspaper headline would be more interesting if any witnesses recalled a description of anything like a flying saucer or disk, but Marcel, Brazel, Brazel's children, and many others do not report anything like a flying saucer or actual disk shape, and even the FBI memo says the disk was apparently a hexagonal thing suspended by a balloon. So maybe the old headline was what we would today call "clickbait" except they didn't click back then, so maybe "attention-grabbing" would be more appropriate to the time, and as pointed out the word "captured" being thrown in there also doesn't fit Marcel's narrative, or at the very least it's extreme exaggeration or hyperbole. The Colonel who wrote the Air Force 1994 report on Roswell said that no documented reason could be found for the captured disk headline, though he offered his own speculation for the reason.

a reply to: Jay-morris

Yeah that's a huge question mark, calling balloon debris a flying disk, coming from a military man also. If it it was as markels daughter said, raised by another poster. To be sticks and tin foil how the hell does he come to a flying disc had crashed, just doesn't add up...
Had to be something other than a balloon, or that army guy was high as fck while on duty.

originally posted by: Rhombus101
a reply to: Jay-morris

Yeah that's a huge question mark, calling balloon debris a flying disk, coming from a military man also. If it it was as markels daughter said, raised by another poster. To be sticks and tin foil how the hell does he come to a flying disc had crashed, just doesn't add up...
Had to be something other than a balloon, or that army guy was high as fck while on duty.

That's why is does not make sense. So, basically we have people who witnessed it saying it was just foil, wood and rubber, and people saying that's because it was what they saw. But at the same time, they say the wreckage could have seemed liked alien to them.

Which one is it? There is no way that Marcel, and two officers confused foil, wooden beams and rubber as some unknown alien craft or material, no matter how big the debris field was.

It would not suprise me in the future, they come out and say it was a secret militery craft.

I am not even saying it's ET, but I believe we are still not being told the truth.

a reply to: Jay-morris

Sheridan Cavitt was with Marcel when they first arrived at the ranch. He was the other witness to the debris. He says he was interviewed for several books where he was misquoted and words taken out of context.

Cavitt's quote about the debris, taken from his interview:

...it was a small amount of, as I recall, bamboo sticks, reflective sort of material that would, well at first glance, you would probably think it was aluminum foil, something of that type.

I thought a weather balloon.

Research needs to be done before repeating false statements or beliefs.

This is the typical type of weather balloon Marcel and Brazel would have found during the period:

A single balloon, one radar target (if used), and a weather recording device. Landing on the property intact and in one piece many times.

This is the type of balloon TEST flights being launched out of Alamogordo 90 miles away and during this exact same time period:

Multiple balloons with multiple radar targets attached. Given the size, which would have been 5 or 6 times that of a typical weather balloon, it would have been susceptible to a violent crash, breaking up and spreading debris across the property.
So yes, walking upon a debris field that was broken up and scattered, possibly 5 times larger than anything they had seen before (an intact single balloon & radar target) would have been foreign and unusual to them.

Again, Brazel's 1947 newspaper interview is the only recorded information on the debris at the time that hasn't been subject to UFOlogist spin to this tale decades later. Brazel doesn't mention one time in this interview any amazing properties that the debris had. Why not?

A research/service/test flight launched on June 4th, 90 miles away to the south with winds carrying other flights in the same general area is likely what crashed.

a reply to: Arbitrageur
Found one
Horton Parabola Glider