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Should all women be believed???

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posted on Jul, 18 2019 @ 12:39 PM
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So “should all women be believed?? “

It is the rallying cry for the conservative rebuttal to the “metoo” movement, so obviously their opinion is “No”, which is not the same as “no women should be believed “, make no mistake.

I’m not really sure that “all women should be believed” is fairly called the rallying cry for liberals, but it is something you can find a quote from more than one bigwig liberal saying it..



After watching a Prager U ad concerning a “#meniether” blog, it has forced me to reevaluate my position..

Normally I would be squarely in the “no all women should not be believed “ category, but after further examination. I don’t think there is a way where someone is not getting screwed either way...


Because if you DO NOT give the accuser the benefit of the doubt, then you are inherently giving the accused the benefit of the doubt...


The vast majority of sexual assault criminal cases are a zero sum situation..

Because of the fundamentals involved, such as...
the fact it is almost always “he said, she said” you have to give someone the benefit of the doubt, and if it is the accused , no one ever gets prosecuted for rape..


That means you have to believe any woman who comes forward... you don’t have to keep believing her if her story falls apart, but YOU ABSOLUTELY have to believe them all at the onset..


I don’t see any other way around it..

If you give the accused the benefit of the doubt, then your assuming he DID NOT rape her.. well if your assuming it did not happen, how are you gonna solve a crime where it is he said, she said?!?!!



You can’t..



So once again the conservative talking point is just something that sounds good, but means nothing.. and honestly, due to my lack of deeper introspection, I fell for it too..


Obviously some women lie about everything, so without deeper digging it seems ridiculous to believe them all, but when actually playing out the average rape case, there is no other way to make it work.


Really, deciding which party should be initially believed comes down to one stat imho...


Do you believe more women are raped, or that more women lie about being raped??? And I do not mean reported stats, I mean whatever people feel the real numbers are..


I do not doubt that the real number of fake rape allegations would be uncomfortably higher than aloe of people think, but I don’t think it out paces real rapes AT ALL..


Even if we assume 10% of rape allegations are fake, which is probably very high, that still means that 9/10 times YOU SHOULD have given the accuser the benefit of the doubt..

So In conclusion, Yes all women should be believed initially...I just don’t see any other way around it



edit on 18-7-2019 by JustJohnny because: (no reason given)




posted on Jul, 18 2019 @ 12:41 PM
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Is any woman incapable of telling a lie, is any man? How do you know?



posted on Jul, 18 2019 @ 12:44 PM
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a reply to: JustJohnny


Ummm...NO...


Next question...







YouSir



posted on Jul, 18 2019 @ 12:46 PM
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a reply to: JustJohnny

Should all _____ be believed?

No, fill in that blank with any large group and the answer remains the same.



posted on Jul, 18 2019 @ 12:47 PM
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I don't think the question:




Do you believe more women are raped, or that more women lie about being raped???


can be answered one way or another until we agree on a definition of rape that actually makes sense. Consensual drunk sex is not rape, for example. Neither is sex to advance one's career (though it might be harassment, depending on the context).

Very little of value has been gained by the growing hyperemotional "rape culture" movement, and the waters have been muddied more than ever before. Groupies who voluntarily seek sexual contact with celebrities and who perform like an academy award nominee are now mostly victims, as are women who enjoyed the sexualized and hyper-feminine role of being the (potential) partner of a hyper-masculine male.

We've gone over the rainbow. If we ever want to find our true north again, we must first define our terms (and shut down the most ridiculous arguments).
edit on 18-7-2019 by 0zzymand0s because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 18 2019 @ 12:50 PM
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If anyone makes a criminal accusation, then it's up to the legal process to ascertain truth.

The default to "believe" any accusation is the road to ruin. The #metoo campaign has highlighted some very serious issues, but it must not be above the law, otherwise it's mob rule. Mob rule results in injustice.



posted on Jul, 18 2019 @ 12:53 PM
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a reply to: Nickn3

I’m guessing you didn’t bother to read the post???



posted on Jul, 18 2019 @ 12:54 PM
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a reply to: YouSir

A) again I’m guessing you didn’t bother to even read the post....

B) a counterpoint requires that you actually make a point..



posted on Jul, 18 2019 @ 12:55 PM
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a reply to: CriticalStinker

Again... is it par for the course for conservatives to just respond without reading the OP or actually providing a counterpoint?!?!


I mean it fits and would explain why such bad logic is so wide spread... but damn



posted on Jul, 18 2019 @ 12:58 PM
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Each case should be judged on its own merits. I know some of it is tough when time passes and there is little evidence around either way. Sometimes we just have to live with things we cannot be fully certain about. Sometimes the truth does eventually come out in the end with enough digging.



posted on Jul, 18 2019 @ 12:59 PM
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a reply to: JustJohnny

I read the post and no, all _____ should not automatically be believed. People have motives for lies at times, and other times, they are victims who are in tough situations where the accused is powerful and the charges will disappear. So for anyone to be forced to accept all or nothing is so far beyond idiotic, it's frightening.

People lie, both sides. So kind of like how people in general should be judged on their merit and the content of their character, rather than the color of their skin, this is part of life and as with most things, takes a little bit of thought rather than stupidity wrapped in guilt.



posted on Jul, 18 2019 @ 12:59 PM
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a reply to: JustJohnny

Most PEOPLE should be believed when they are telling you that something as horrible as rape has happened to them.

Only a small percentage of humans are dumb or crazy or evil enough to lie about that specific thing.

Just my opinion.



posted on Jul, 18 2019 @ 01:00 PM
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originally posted by: JustJohnny
a reply to: CriticalStinker

Again... is it par for the course for conservatives to just respond without reading the OP or actually providing a counterpoint?!?!


I mean it fits and would explain why such bad logic is so wide spread... but damn


That's cute, you called me a conservative.

I read your post, but there is no solution or point to counter.

The justice system is prove that someone is guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. Do you wish to change that? It's not benefit of doubt for the accused, it's saying that everyone has the same rights. It doesn't mean I like them, or even believe they are innocent, but their guilt must be proved, it's a court of law, not of public opinion.



posted on Jul, 18 2019 @ 01:00 PM
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a reply to: 0zzymand0s

I agree with you completely on the fact rape/sexual assault/whatever cannot be a subjective thing..


You have to draw a bright line that separates those with lesser infractions.

For example al Frankenstein taking a comedy pic while grabbing a drunk girls boob, isn’t right.. but it isn’t rape or sexual assault either..



That said by even the most conservative definition of rape, AKA the victim had to specifically say no and the accused refused to stop...


I don’t think fake allegations touch that number..

Like I said I wouldn’t be totally shocked if it is as high as 10%, but that still far out weights fake allegations.



posted on Jul, 18 2019 @ 01:02 PM
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Believe the accusation, investigate it and weigh the evidence. For any crime, really. I don't get the question really, it's leading.

Guilt or innocence should come from the outcome of the evidence and the accusation being properly investigated.



posted on Jul, 18 2019 @ 01:02 PM
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a reply to: paraphi

How does that work when the only evidence is both peoples statements... aka the vast majority of rape cases..

Most rapes are not the stranger kind..


They are the date rape kind or the passed out kind . and not some shady, “maybe it wasn’t rape situation “...


Due to the fundamentals of the case you can’t give the accused the benefit of the doubt.. because then your assuming the accuser is lying.



posted on Jul, 18 2019 @ 01:03 PM
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originally posted by: JustJohnny

If you give the accused the benefit of the doubt, then your assuming he DID NOT rape her.

...

So once again the conservative talking point is just something that sounds good, but means nothing.. and honestly, due to my lack of deeper introspection, I fell for it too..

...



First, it isn't a 'conservative' talking point...it's actually embedded in the US Constitution.

Second, real justice ALWAYS requires a rebuttable presumption of innocence. No exceptions. If you can't prove your case in a court of law, then tough, because the damage that can be done otherwise is literally the basis of this country's founding.


originally posted by: JustJohnny
That means you have to believe any woman who comes forward... you don’t have to keep believing her if her story falls apart, but YOU ABSOLUTELY have to believe them all at the onset..


I think you are very confused. No one is stopping rape accusers from bringing their claims to court. Yes, I understand why rape victims may not do so, but that has nothing to do the legal standard of proof required when one is accused of a crime.

You had it right the first time.

edit on 18-7-2019 by loam because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 18 2019 @ 01:04 PM
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a reply to: JustJohnny

Actual rape statistics are nowhere near as high as 1 in 10. Am I missing some context or fact here?

Regardless, the presumption of innocence is sacred in English common law and we do not assign "group" guilt to the actions of individuals.

Ergo, both parties are taken seriously and presumed to be rational actors until proven otherwise.

In the case of the accused, that standard is still (and should always be) "beyond reasonable doubt."



posted on Jul, 18 2019 @ 01:04 PM
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originally posted by: JustJohnny
a reply to: 0zzymand0s

I agree with you completely on the fact rape/sexual assault/whatever cannot be a subjective thing..


You have to draw a bright line that separates those with lesser infractions.

For example al Frankenstein taking a comedy pic while grabbing a drunk girls boob, isn’t right.. but it isn’t rape or sexual assault either..



That said by even the most conservative definition of rape, AKA the victim had to specifically say no and the accused refused to stop...


I don’t think fake allegations touch that number..

Like I said I wouldn’t be totally shocked if it is as high as 10%, but that still far out weights fake allegations.


if you recall, it wasn't the right that forced Franken to leave, it was his folks. They couldn't say one thing and do another, well, not that close together. They usually have a few days of cover fire.



posted on Jul, 18 2019 @ 01:05 PM
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a reply to: kwakakev

Screw time passes..

Take a case that happened yesterday..


Your average “ it started off voluntary, but she said no, forcefully and he wouldn’t stop”..

That is ALL he said she said..

That is all having to give someone the benefit of the doubt..




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