Jews, Christianity & The Bible

Originally posted by jake1997
Jew and christian pretty much have the same religion in the manner that the RCC and christians are the same religion.

How is it the same if Jesus says the only way to get to the Father is through me (excepting he's God's son, the Christ, etc.) and Orthodox Jews disagree?

Originally posted by jake1997
(most, but NOT all) Jews think Jesus was a fraud.
If Jesus is real, the Judaism is a sect of Christianity.
If not, then Christianity is a sect of Judaism.

Brain...hurts...must try to keep thinking... Can you re-position this please? I'm not sure I understand the meaning here.



[edit on 10-3-2005 by saint4God]

saint,
All I was saying was that Christianity is jewish. (I tried to put it from a neutral POV tho.) Jewish people have erred from the faith.

Catholics and jews alike have erred from the faith for their own reasons.
Both are related to true™ christianity, but are off the mark.

If jews had not missed their Savior, then Israel would be the only christian nation in the world instead of the only jewish one.

Dbrandt, LMMFAO!!!

No, that's not enough...HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!

So, the influential Phoenicians don't matter because Adam and Eve were created in 4004 BC. LMAO, I can barely stop laughing to say what I gotta say.

So, because Adam, I mean, 4004 BC...LMAO!

My bad, I think I'm laughed out now. Here we go, I'm going to use your own logic against you...

The Phoenicians, despite their alphabet, seafaring, wealth, and other cultural aspects had NO influence on the Bible because Christianity started around 4004 BC? Well, I guess the Sumerian religious beliefs render the Bible useless, since they were practicing them since at least 7000 BC. (It can be argued that the actual date is between 9-8000 BC) And like I and others have said before, various forms of nature worship have been present much longer. But I guess you'll argue that these don't count because they aren't organized religion. Seems to me like Christianity, with all its sect, can't be considered an organized religion as well.

Thanks for a good laugh, though, I needed it. BTW, if you respond to this, please tell me how old the earth is, I enjoy humor on this site when I find it.

Originally posted by mwm1331
Ahhh yes an "earth old" form.
Which basically means you make it up as you go along?
Its like the guys in the UK who claim to be druids despite the fact that noone actually knows exactly what the druids worshipped or what rituals, practices etc. they actually did.

Is it their fault Romans came and converted everyone to Christianity by force then the Church destroyed other histories?

This is what's so funny to me. White people are druids. At least you used to be. It's all so muddied now though from the Christian onslaught. Saxons, Druids, pagans... whatever.

You're not neo-jews.

Originally posted by mwm1331
Ahhh yes an "earth old" form.
Which basically means you make it up as you go along?
Its like the guys in the UK who claim to be druids despite the fact that noone actually knows exactly what the druids worshipped or what rituals, practices etc. they actually did.
You may gfee its an "earth old" form and as long as you are happy with it thats fine, but do you honestly believe that you worship the same things, way, etc. that our pre hstoric ancestors did?
Now I have no doubts wicca is based on earlier forms of relgon, but you and I both know there is no unbroken chain of worship that connects wicca to earlier pagan religons, there is no direct lineage, wicca is based on what we think we know about those earlier religons, we aren't nor can we be sure because they didn't leave written records, detailed explanations of thier rituals etc. All we have is the folk knowledge passed down which may or may not be accurate. Hell most of what we know about early pagans is based on the writing of ther enemies, so how can you lend it any creedence?
Everything we know about the keltoi for example comes from the wrtings of romans.

Well oddly enough, you can find Wiccan beliefs in the bible and other religious beliefs..eg.. the corn goddess becomes Maria. bla bla bla. Shows how intertwine and well traveled old beliefs becomes melded and repackaged into new or newer belief system.

A person must assume than that belief system that is written is actually a newer version of an older religion. Unless you believe that written proof is somehow affirmation for a belief.

And it is mighty arrogant to assume that another person's belief is less legitimate than yourself, based solely on no written proof of existence. Before the written word, most beliefs were transported by word of mouth. And I must say that Christianity was responsible for the destruction of a lot of so called "pagan" religion through countless wars and causes like the inquisition.

Btw, merry christmas. A pagan holiday.



[edit on 10-3-2005 by Justanotherperson]

Thanks jake, that does help.

Originally posted by jake1997
If jews had not missed their Savior, then Israel would be the only christian nation in the world instead of the only jewish one.

I'd like to hear more on this alternate scenario. Why would they be the only Christian nation? Doesn't the text still say to go out to all nations?

Well, I dunno about the only Christian nation, but I do know that Israel is one of the newest nations in the world. I also know that it was founded under "funny" circumstances.

I personally don't see anything special about Israel. If they are the supposed "chosen" people of God, you would think they would set an example. All I see them do is dirt. Tanks vs. kids with rocks, anyone? White slavery, anyone? Threatening war on Iran, anyone? Hardly a Godly nation, if you ask me.

Originally posted by truthseeka
I personally don't see anything special about Israel. If they are the supposed "chosen" people of God, you would think they would set an example. All I see them do is dirt. Tanks vs. kids with rocks, anyone? White slavery, anyone? Threatening war on Iran, anyone? Hardly a Godly nation, if you ask me.

The Israelites are the 'chosen' people of G_d in the following sense, and this is somewhat simplistic, so forgive me:
All mankind is descended from Noah, after G_d had to punish mankind yet again for disobedience leaving only Noah and his family. After some time had elapsed mankind once more left the path that G_d had set for man. It was patently obvious that the nature of man is such that he will not follow the path that G_d sets out for him. G_d therefore set a people asside, he chooses them, to keep his laws and teachings so that they, (the laws & teachings), would not be lost from the face of the Earth.
So, while the bulk of mankind has gone it's own sweet way, the Israelites, the chosen of G_d, have kept the Law safe.
It is interesting also to note that the Israelites are supposed to be the teachers of the rest of mankind so that mankind can be brought back to G_d and know his laws. I honestly cannot remember the last time an Israeli tried to help my understanding. But such is life....

Bowyer, thanks for the info, but I already knew that. I was being sarcastic in my post (sadly, most people miss my sarcasm. I find this ironic since I'm such a sarcastic person.:puz.

My point is that since Israel is supposed to house the chosen ones, they should do a better job of promoting God's word...not that I'd believe it anyway.

any israeli on the street who will engage you in such conversation will tell you that most Israelis are secular...not religious. They have long since given up that stuff about judiasm and are not practicing as in devout. They are somewhat like englishmen..you wont find them at church..find them at the pub. They are h owever loyal to the nation of Israel and will fight for it.
Furthermore ..Judiasm is a newer , younger religion than Christianity ..it came to the forefront it is under today with the destruction of the temple in 70AD when the Pharisees took over as the ruling power. What people think is Judiasm is the Law of Moses..as practiced back in the time of David and Solomon. This is not what is happening today ..in Judiasm. Check out the Jewish Encyclopedia...where it states that modern day Judiasm is nothing more than Phariseeism. This is not the Law of Moses. Any reading of the bible in the time of the walk of Jesus will clear this up. Jesus rebuked the Pharisees often for not keeping the Law of Moses..while they claimed to be doing exactly that. The woman caught in adultery is a textbook example of this double standard practiced by the pharisees.
There is something very peculiar about the founding of the nation Israel..though it seems to be covered up somewhat...in history.
One more thing you need to know ..truth seeker..as it has some applicability today. In "occult studies...any serious student of the occult will eventually study "Kaballah" It has its origins today in the Hebrew culture. In its book form it is refered to as the Greater Mysteries and the Lesser Mysteries. Another term for it is Magick. This is one of the core philosophy books of the Mystics. It is not taught in Christianity. This is not taught in the Law of Moses. This is very telling to those who do a study of the Ancient Mystery Religions and thier origins and fingerprint going back centuries. It is obviously fashionable today and making a comeback by famous showpersons. Its origins are occult. Something not known by most peoples...especially Christians. The amount of ignorance among Christians in this area or even bible areas is astonishing to me.
Furthermore ..someone posted about how olde the other religions are ...from ancient times..non Judiac and non christian religions. They are quite correct about this pedigree. Religions of Pagan origin are the dominant religions in this world..always have been and always will be. Nothing new here.
This begs a question and exploration of a concept often overlooked when promoting relgion..especially religions of Pagan origin. Paganism ...with all its pedigree..and history ....had time on its side to change the world...to a better place..to make the ordinary peon to live at something other than a basic substance level...anywhere in the world..yet it did not...Why?? Anywhere you go in the world...you saw dominantly feudal pagan religions practiced..and the people lived in poverty ..and at a basic substance level ..all over the world. There were only a few nations which did not and they too fell to this rampant pagan practice as they fell mostlly from within. This is recorded in history. A few people...royalty and the priesthoods lived well at the expense of most of the populace. The dominant religion did nothing to change this ...nothing. It was in fact a part of this system. This is a concept never told either to pagans or most christians.
Something to think about ...truth seeka...thanks

Orangetom

LavyV, Wicca has been around since the 40's of the last century, not 2,000 years ago.

Your question asked is answered in the Bible.

Christs followers were not only Jews, but also the gentiles. They accepted Him even more readily.

Yes, Christ was a Jew. As a matter of fact, LadyV, He is the WHOLE REASON for the Jewish bloodline. You are making a mystery out of something that is not a spiritual mystery.

Also, will we ever get it, this whole forum difference thing?

Originally posted by LadyV
Ok.....I've been thinking again. I know, but no matter what else I am doing, I am also thinking.

Jesus was Jewish, his followers were Jewish, the NT therefore, was written by Jews. Yet, the Jewish do not think Jesus was the Messiah, but a prophet....and the Christian faith (another whole thread....I mean "starting" a religion to me seems phony to begin with, but that's been hashed out here before) follows the NT. Maybe it's just my odd way of thinking...but this seems really all backwards to me somehow......

Most Jews dont believe Jesus(Yashua) is the Messiah because of one verse that says "...and a virgin shall ber a child, and they shall call his name Emmanuel..."... thats why they dont beleive Jesus is the Messiah.

"Emmanuel" means= God with us

"Yahsua" = Salvation

Scholars argue back and forth that Emmanuel is a title and other say its not...

Others argue that Yashua presentend himself and said "..I am Yashua Emmanuel.." .and thats why he was condemen to death for saying he was Emmanuel = God with us.


The fact that most Jews are waiting for "Emmanuel" is used by 99.9% of "Christian" chruches to spread anti-semetic hate, and false octrines that demonize the Jewsish ppl.

Nowaday there are groups called "Jews for Jesus", but you probabbly knew that already.

[edit on 23-4-2005 by BaastetNoir]

Originally posted by truthseeka
Thanks for a good laugh, though, I needed it. BTW, if you respond to this, please tell me how old the earth is, I enjoy humor on this site when I find it.

Guess I missed this from a while ago.The earth if one takes the days in Genesis as literal, and there's no reason not too, would be some over 6000 years. Also, since if Adam and Eve are the first people that would mean the phonecians came after them.

Roger that.
And since there were no Phoenecians before babel, that would mean that they came after that. In Genesis you will find the table of nations, and the in that list are the "people who settled the coastlands". In that you will find the Pheonecians. Its my opinion that they were many groups of people who banded together in their trade, and they had ports of call from china, to India, all around africa and the med, up to UK and Scandinavia, and over to South America

Originally posted by LadyV
Ok.....I've been thinking again. I know, but no matter what else I am doing, I am also thinking.

Jesus was Jewish, his followers were Jewish, the NT therefore, was written by Jews. Yet, the Jewish do not think Jesus was the Messiah, but a prophet....and the Christian faith (another whole thread....I mean "starting" a religion to me seems phony to begin with, but that's been hashed out here before) follows the NT. Maybe it's just my odd way of thinking...but this seems really all backwards to me somehow......

Hi LadyV.....
Its good this 'thinking'....

Jesus Christ the Son Of God(LOGOS)meaning the WORD..........Was He prophesied in the Old Testament?
Yes.
And in order to understand Jesus Christ one must understand the Old Testament......
Why it is Necessary to Know the Old Testament ?

quote//In the Old Testament the reasons are given why salvation through the coming of the Son of God was essential for humanity.
The time would fail me,
writes the Apostle Paul,
to tell of Gideon, and of Barak, and of Sampson, and of Jephthae, of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets: who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness,
obtained promises,
stopped the mouths of lions,
quenched the violence of fire,
escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, waxed valiant in fight, turned to flight the armies of the aliens ... of whom the world was not worthy: they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth ... (Heb. 11:32-34, 38).

quote// Old Testament Wisdom

The didactic books constitute the third group of writings in the Old Testament. They teach man to organize his personal, earthly life in such a way that it will be blessed by God and by men, and may give him prosperity and peace of soul. The wisdom which proceeds from God imparts such a life.

When Solomon, beginning his reign, offered up his prayers and burnt sacrifices, God appeared to him at night and said: "Ask, what am I to give thee" (cf. 1 Kings 3:5).
And Solomon asked God only for wisdom and knowledge,
in order that he might rule the people of God.
And God said to Solomon,
"Because thou hast not asked for riches, property, glory, victories, or long life, but hast asked for wisdom and knowledge, wisdom and knowledge shall be given thee; and I shall also give thee such riches, possessions and glory as former kings have never had, nor will have after thee" (cf. 1 Kings 3:11-13).

sorry, I know this is a long read...but in order to understand .....there needs to be some reading...

Did the Old Testament Prophets foresee that Christ would not be accepted by His own People?
YES......
Quote///
Does the prophet foresee that the Saviour will not be recognized or accepted by the leaders of the Jewish people,
or by those people that follow them?
Yes, he makes an oblique reference to this in the great depiction of Christ's sufferings which he gives in Chapter 53 of his book, which is one of the greatest prophecies, if not the greatest of them all:

O Lord, who hath believed our report?
and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?
We brought a report of a Child before him; He is as a root in a thirsty land,
He hath no form nor comeliness,
and we saw Him,
but He had no form nor beauty.
But His form was ignoble,
and forsaken by all men; He was a man of suffering,
and acquainted with the bearing of sickness,
for His face is turned away from us; He was dishonored and not esteemed. He beareth our sins and is pained for us: yet we accounted Him to be in trouble,
and in suffering,
and in affliction.
But He was wounded on account of our sins, ........etc. (Is. 53:1-9).
read the rest....
www.orthodoxphotos.com...
Also....
A full explanation of the fact that it was principally people from the pagan nations who entered the Church of Christ,
and that the majority of the Jews remained in unbelief,
is given to us in the New Testament by the Apostle Paul.
In his writings, we find an exhaustive interpretation of the Old Testament prophecies concerning this. The Apostle writes:

"What if God, willing to show His wrath and to make His power known, endureth with much long suffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction, and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy,
which He had afore prepared unto glory,
even us,
whom He hath called,
not of the Jews only,
but also of the nations?
As He saith also in Hosea,
I will call them My people,
which were not My people; and her beloved,
which was not beloved.
And it shall come to pass,
that in the place where it was said unto them,
ye are not My people,
there shall they be called the people of the living God.
Isaiah also crieth concerning Israel: Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved........

Sorry for the long post....
helen....

Originally posted by Kriz_4
Confusing huh Lady.

The whole Jesus story is just a re-hash of other stories of religous figures. His birth way and date, his death are just repeats of stories told before. If you want I can supply you with a few snippets of info on other stories, which have their version of Jesus born on the same day, by a virgin, were crucified, were resurected, feed hundreds of people with just a few cakes etc.

Hmmm did you ever look into what eye witnes reports from that time have to say about Jesus?
Whatever makes you think the Jesus story is just bad fiction, there is enough research and investigations that allready proof that the Jesus story is at least partly true.

www.jesusfactorfiction.com...

To answer LadyV

The jewish religion IS the same as the christian religion, if it wasn't for the fact that Jewish people do not believe Jesus is the messiah. So this makes the whole NT false for jewish people, but other then this they are the same, and believe in the same God.

[edit on 24-4-2005 by Jakko]