Jews, Christianity & The Bible

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posted on Mar, 9 2005 @ 06:10 PM
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Question...

If Christ, God, and the Holy Ghost are 3 versions of the same being, why would Christ/God want to rule the earth? Surely the Almighty has better things to do than to rule over a small planet in the vast universe...




posted on Mar, 9 2005 @ 06:15 PM
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Originally posted by truthseeka
Babloyi, LMMFAO!!!

Christianity is the 1st religion???
I guess you never heard of Ancient Egyptians, Sumerians, Akkadians, Babylonians, etc., who ALL predate the Israelites generally credited for starting the whole OT thing.

What about the people of the Stone Age? I'm sure that as long as modern man has been on the planet (100,000 years according to the Out Of Africa model), people have been wondering what else bigger than them is out there and have been worshipping something.

But I guess your right...Christianity is the 1st religion. Hell, it even predates Judaism...


What about the Phoenicians? They have been almost wiped off the history books even though they contributed with the Roman Alphabet and the fact that they live where the jews claim to be ancient Israel. Plenty of evidence for their existence. Is this political or just outright fraud to protect religion?



posted on Mar, 9 2005 @ 06:17 PM
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Originally posted by truthseeka
Question...

If Christ, God, and the Holy Ghost are 3 versions of the same being, why would Christ/God want to rule the earth? Surely the Almighty has better things to do than to rule over a small planet in the vast universe...


The premiss that God is not involved with His creation is not true. He created it, has been overseeing it and will never be uninvolved with it throughout eternity.

So why doesn't that make people feel better knowing that God cares about us?



posted on Mar, 9 2005 @ 06:19 PM
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Just for clarification, Jesus was Jewish until he die, the Christian movement started out of Jesus, not Jesus made the Christian movement.

When Jewish and Christians could not agree on the believes of the messiah that is when they split up and the Christ was born, and the whole story of his life was written.



posted on Mar, 9 2005 @ 06:28 PM
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Originally posted by babloyi
I don't think Jesus "started" a new religion. Christianity is supposed to be a continuation of Abraham's/Moses religion. If one believes in Christianity, then one would also believe that it is the 1st religion, as God told Adam how to behave, what to do, and how to worship Him.


This is true. If you are going to believe the Bible then you have to believe all of it. So when Adam and Eve(the first people ever)fell and sin entered mankind. God made coverings of animal skins for them. God instituted the first sacrifice, the transferring of their sin to the animal who then received the death sentence that they deserved. That animal took their place. This was a foreshadowing of Christ who would come in the future and be the final sacrifice that would forever remove the sin of an individuals.

Cain and Abel both brought their offerings to God at the appointed time. Adam and Eve had taught their son's what to do. Abel listened and obeyed, Cain didn't. Abel's offering was as God prescribed. Cain's was not the correct offering for his sin. Since then you have people who follow God rightly and those who don't. My guess is Cain if he even sought God continued to try to come to God on his own terms.

[edit on 9-3-2005 by dbrandt]



posted on Mar, 9 2005 @ 06:33 PM
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"What about the Phoenicians? They have been almost wiped off the history books even though they contributed with the Roman Alphabet and the fact that they live where the jews claim to be ancient Israel. Plenty of evidence for their existence. Is this political or just outright fraud to protect religion? "

Its Fraud.

The Phoenicians were seafaring traders, and are probably more responsible for how the world is today than most cultures. Their alphabet was the ancestor of Hebrew as well as Roman. Their trading ranged the world over and carried the stories of one culture to the next. I would present that just as modern day air traffic used english as a standard language, Phoenician was used to trade at the ports.
Having a common language spread fables, and stories, and myths. Tales about Eden and the Great Flood, and angels and demons. They carried the stories of one culture to another, Until Gilgamesh Became Noah, and the corn mother became Eve, and Atom became Adam.
Its Religious fraud, because the truth would decimate the foundation of many world religions.



posted on Mar, 9 2005 @ 06:45 PM
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How does someone just misplace an entire civilization and replace it with a myth? Why no questions and correlation with present day Palestine? It's the origin of the alphabet, for god sakes!!! Not to mention a certain town called Byblos, the very origin of the word bible!



posted on Mar, 9 2005 @ 07:25 PM
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Originally posted by Justanotherperson
How does someone just misplace an entire civilization and replace it with a myth?


I did a search and it say the phoenicians lived between 1200 B.C. and 800 B.C., so what's the problem?



posted on Mar, 9 2005 @ 07:30 PM
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Thanks for pointing out that the Phoenicians predate the bible by a several centuries.



posted on Mar, 9 2005 @ 07:45 PM
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Phoenicia existed from the bronze age, roughly 3500 BCE. There is some evidence of earlier times, but not confirmed yet. They were highly experienced sailors that kept trade routes secret, so they could control the mechant traffic. Pretty smart. They had homeports all over, but the homelands were present-day Lebanon and coastal parts of Israel and Syria. They established commercial and religious connections with Egypt about 2600 BC and continued until the end of the Egyptian Old Kingdom and the invasion of Phoenicia by the Amorites (c. 2200 BC). This was the great age, and then they existed as a Minor world player as their culture was absorbed by invaders, and a changing world.

Its not hidden, but its not advertised either. They changed the world, and if religious scholars were to look deep enough, they helped write much of what we call the Bible, which was then translated into hebrew and Roman and Greek. It was their alphabet that started it all. They spread stories that became myths that became religions.

For the alchemists out there, Hermes was probably a Phoenician, known as Thoth in Egypt.



posted on Mar, 9 2005 @ 08:00 PM
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When you look at the Bible, you've got to realise that it is made up of two totally separate books for two totally different religions.
The Old Testament is the book for the Jews and the New Testament the book for the Christians.
The problem I see is that Christians take a book that isn't meant for them and then try and apply it to their religion. The Old Testament is a book of Jewish politics and religion - it doesn't apply to Christians. The way that they get around this problem is to state that Jesus changed a few things that he disagreed with in the OT and that it's now OK. They literally pick and choose the bits they want.
So why look to the Old Testament at all if you are a Christian? I'm afraid that this is force of habit. When Christianity began, it needed a base to build on and to be able to sell itself from. As Jesus was probably a Jew and as most of his followers were Jews, they needed something to back the new religion up with. They used the Old Testament as a booster to selling the religion. Because people back then were familiar with the Old Testament stories it wasn't such a big wrench to move from Judaism to Christianity if the whole thing came as a package. They were dealing with familiar material that was expanded upon in the New Testament. It's like upgrading your car - you may change to a newer model that is totally different from your old car, it has a new engine, new refinements, new paintjob, but you keep the make, you keep the badge. You've bought that make before and know it's a comfortable drive. The same goes with Christianity and the Bible. The early Christians said that they bought a new model of the religion, but they kept the badge of the old so that everyone would know that it was comfortable. The truth is, the new model was a different make as well - they merely took the badge off the old model and glued it onto the new.

Some Christians will obviously state that no, the whole Bible is the word of God and is pertinent to their traditions and religion. This is clearly not the case. Time and time again, the Old Testament condemns those who are not Jewish. Time and time again, it specifies that Judaism is the only way to go. Not only that, but the way any Christian lives his life is totally contrary to the Old Testament. If you follow the rules and the laws in the OT, you can only be Jewish!!!
It's worrying that people try to adapt this book to the later religion - it's what helps to create most of the contradictions within Christianity itself. Sometimes, if a Christian can't justify something through the New Testament, he'll go and justify it through the Old - even though that book wasn't written for him and the laws don't apply to him.
One example is the Judaic belief of an eye for an eye. A Christian will quite often use this passage for revenge. There is no eye for an eye in New Testament - there is only mercy, forgiveness and the offering of another cheek. But depending on the mood of the Christian and the nature of the offence committed against him, he will pick from either one and claim that to be the true law of his religion.
Once you start mixing the two you are in a no-win situation.

In my opinion, if you are a Christian, the Old Testament should only be used as a history book. It sheds light on how religion has evolved and how Christianity may have come about. But reading it as the word of the Christian god is dangerous. One must always remember that one is reading the word of the Jewish god - not the Christian god. His word may have been pertinent to the early proto-Christians because they came from the Jewish faith and from a Jewish background, but once the first generation of gentiles was born, free from the constraints of Judaism, the Old Testament became redundant to the Christian faith as a book of spiritual law.




[edit on 9-3-2005 by Leveller]



posted on Mar, 9 2005 @ 08:16 PM
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Originally posted by LadyV
Ok.....I've been thinking again. I know, but no matter what else I am doing, I am also thinking.


That's excellent! A lot of us are too busy talking to do such a thing
. Just kidding guys, I love you all.


Originally posted by LadyV
Jesus was Jewish, his followers were Jewish, the NT therefore, was written by Jews.


Yes.


Originally posted by LadyV
Yet, the Jewish do not think Jesus was the Messiah, but a prophet....


Correction please. Orthodox Jews said he was a prophet, Messianic Jews said he was the Christ.


Originally posted by LadyV
and the Christian faith (another whole thread....I mean "starting" a religion to me seems phony to begin with, but that's been hashed out here before) follows the NT. Maybe it's just my odd way of thinking...but this seems really all backwards to me somehow......


There has always been only one religion. It just got off course and needed bumping back in line according to Messainic Judiasm. How Messianic Jews go changed to Christian is news to me. Is there an etymologist in the house? I'd suspect it occured when word spread outside of the Jewish circle. I'm interested in hearing more facts (not unsubstantiated theory) on how this came to be if someone is able to share. I'm thinking Rome got mixed up in here with Christus or something being the translated word. IT'S ALL PAUL'S FAULT!
Not really, just thought I'd say it before someone else did. If it's not God's fault, then it's Jesus and for some reason, Paul is next in line
. After that I think people start blaming the Catholic Church, then Baptists. Did I get the progression right?

Always interested in your topics LadyV. I hope they help someone reading about them.

Pray, train, study.
God bless.



posted on Mar, 9 2005 @ 08:34 PM
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Originally posted by Justanotherperson
Thanks for pointing out that the Phoenicians predate the bible by a several centuries.


My point is that some have gone through the Bible and gleaned stuff to come up with when, according to the Bible ,Adam and Eve were created. The date I've heard from a couple of sources is 4004 B.C.. So when they fell God instructed them on the animal sacrifice system. So for those who believe the Bible, we are informed that since they were the first people, that the first, "religious" way to know/follow/etc God would have started with them. So the phoenicians being around from 1200-800 B.C. isn't a problem. Adam and Eve predate them by alot of years.



posted on Mar, 9 2005 @ 08:37 PM
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Originally posted by Leveller
When you look at the Bible, you've got to realise that it is made up of two totally separate books for two totally different religions.


From a christians view they talk of the same thing.
The OT talks of a promise God has made. In the NT He fulfills that promise.

The OT is the NT concealed, the NT is the OT revealed.



posted on Mar, 9 2005 @ 08:42 PM
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Originally posted by saint4God

There has always been only one religion. It just got off course and needed bumping back in line according to Messainic Judiasm. How Messianic Jews go changed to Christian is news to me.


In the book of Acts it contains the verse that says the believers of Jesus were first called christians in Antioch.



posted on Mar, 9 2005 @ 08:49 PM
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Originally posted by Leveller
. Time and time again, the Old Testament condemns those who are not Jewish. Time and time again, it specifies that Judaism is the only way to go.


But if you chose to forsake the other "gods" and follow the God of the Jews you were accepted in. Rahab and Ruth are examples off the top of my head. The OT contained a mystery not revealed until the coming of Christ. Judaism was live a sinless life and God would accept you. Trouble is it can't be done. Christianity is place your faith in Christ and God looks through Him before He sees you and He sees you as justified.



posted on Mar, 9 2005 @ 08:52 PM
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Originally posted by dbrandt


From a christians view they talk of the same thing.
The OT talks of a promise God has made. In the NT He fulfills that promise.

The OT is the NT concealed, the NT is the OT revealed.


I assume the promise you refer to is the coming of Christ?
So the whole book is pertinent because of a couple of sentences out of how many thousands of others? And sentences that really are open to question as to wether they are actually fulfilled in the NT in the context of the OT? Jesus certainly doesn't free Israel as stated in the OT. His crucifixion put a stop to that.

Dude, that's simply not enough. It can't be stressed how minor and how tenuous the prophecy of Jesus' arrival is in the literary form of the Old Testament. And yet that makes all of the contradictions elsewhere in the book pertinent to the Christian religion? "They talk the same thing?" Apart from the prophecy connection, where else do they "talk the same thing"?

That just doesn't sell it for me. You really look like you've only glued the badge on again. I want the same make. You can give me a different model, but show me some evidence to prove that it's the same make.



posted on Mar, 9 2005 @ 09:01 PM
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Originally posted by dbrandt
In the book of Acts it contains the verse that says the believers of Jesus were first called christians in Antioch.


I sit corrected! So then ah, what's the dilly with Messainic Jews? I mean, Acts didn't start that far after the writings of the gospels, no?



posted on Mar, 9 2005 @ 09:05 PM
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About all I can add to this thread at this point is my favourite verse in the OT, which God, my God, the real God, is calling out to me to present once again

I, even I am the Lord, and beside me there is no other saviour
and ask; how can anyone believing those words to be true defy?

Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminsh ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I have commanded you


Of course the only way Christians had of nullifying the first verse was to declare that Jesus himself was God and so could nullify to his heart's content along with those who claim to have been given his blessing to keep nullifying.



posted on Mar, 10 2005 @ 06:52 AM
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Jew and christian pretty much have the same religion in the manner that the RCC and christians are the same religion.

(most, but NOT all) Jews think Jesus was a fraud.
If Jesus is real, the Judaism is a sect of Christianity.
If not, then Christianity is a sect of Judaism.

The fact that most jews dont recognize their own prophets words is sad. The part where God says He will goto the gentiles should be glaringly obvious today.





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