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Right, that is quite enough, stop all this nonsense. Jesus supports homosexuals in Scripture.

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posted on Jul, 16 2019 @ 05:45 AM
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I think we've all heard the arguments 'against' a thousand times. It's time we heard what Jesus actually said, though in wisdom he said it with a veil of subtlety which many literalists have failed to recognise, in the sense that there is most probably a reward for recognising the validity of His statements.

The reason that so many within the homosexual communities have rejected Christ & the faith, is that they have not heard this teaching exposited. It is time we applied fairness & justice to the matter, along with mercy & humility.

That, incidentally, was the entire point of the Judaic revelation - to promote justice, mercy & humility:


Micah 6:8
He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God.


The Christian tradition has emphasised this more than any other path in the world of religion - in a down-to-earth, non-navel gazing manner..

[ex[Matthew 23:23
“Woe to you, [self-righteous] scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you give a tenth (tithe) of your mint and dill and cumin [focusing on minor matters], and have neglected the weightier [more important moral and spiritual] provisions of the Law: justice and mercy and faithfulness; but these are the [primary] things you ought to have done without neglecting the others.

Further relevant emphasis can be found per the following quotes, which precede a small emphasis from myself immediately following each quote:


Psalm 25:9
He leads the humble in justice, And He teaches the humble His way.


Only the humble will be taught the ways of God in the deepest & most focused sense. Is it humble to judge an entire demographic as worthy of hellfire (which surely doesn't exist as any sort of eternal reality), when only a portion of them are in open rebellion against God, when most are perfectly decent members of society..?


Psalm 45:4
In your majesty ride forth victoriously in the cause of truth, humility and justice; let your right hand achieve awesome deeds.


God will have His truth revealed, and He will shame those who have used their faith to justify words of personal visceral hatred, and even the mere intolerance which should have been evolved out of our congregations by now - intolerance which still causes much pain to those who wish they could be accepted by all of the Western peoples, especially those who possess otherwise healthy understanding of certain (not all) spiritual realities


Zechariah 7:9
“This is what the Lord Almighty said: ‘Administer true justice; show mercy and compassion to one another.


Where is the sentence 'except for the eunuchs'..?


Hosea 6:6
For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings.


God will have His ways taught, and the world will know His truth. He desires mercy, for all, and an acknowledgement of His uppermost nature, that of justice, mercy & humility. Yes, there is 'judginess' in the OT, but as I have argued elsewhere, there was a lot more going on than at first meets the eye. God rolled out a program of spiritual teaching into a brutal & unjust world, one where false gods had decimated the natural order of things, claiming the obsequience of the peoples as their own, rather than overseeing the gradual evolution of Humanity & awaiting their own progress, they foisted elements of their superiority onto the peoples, and damaged the collective unconscious in innumerable & terrible ways. The Lord Jesus came to right the wrongs which were done to this world, and He could only enter a society which had been taught the mysteries of sacrament in ways which could be understood (though in Judaism, one can only fully understand by having had training.. The Qabalah is not taught to anyone under the age of 40, at which time of youth they all are deemed to have insufficient maturity to understanding & accept the teachings & their power..)

So with all of this in mind, what did Jesus actually say about homosexuality?


Matthew 19:12 [Full Chapter]
For there are eunuchs who have been born that way from their mother’s womb [making them incapable of consummating a marriage]; and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by men [for royal service]; and there are eunuchs who have made themselves so for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. He who is able to accept this, let him accept it.”


Bear in mind that 'eunuch' was a loaded term in Jesus' day. It most accurately refers to men who were castrated to ensure they did not steal the affections of the king's wife or his concubines, and his mind would be focused away from women by the removal of certain or all of the male genitalia, This would be done at a pre-pubescent stage of life, setting them aside for royal service by preventing the ordinary course of secual development, leaving the children incapable of developing the requisite sexual organs & hormones to enable them to be capable of desiring & being involved with women, in sexual terms, when they have grown to adulthood. There were almost NEVER natural eunuchs in this sense, just as there are almost NEVER cases of actual loss of genitalia in the womb. Therefore, the commentary of Jesus is simply weird & unrealistic if we are to take it as meaning that He refers to such natural loss of genitalia (which would be utterly unheard of in ancient times, we only hear of it now because of the internet). So what is Jesus referring to when He says that "..[T]here are eunuchs who have been born that way from their mother's womb"..?

Of course, He is referring to those men who (perfectly naturally) DO NOT possess a desire for consummation of the sexual union with a woman. We must all understand that - as 'Game of Thrones' made us widely aware - the Eunuchs of royal service would more likely develop an effeminate manner & a desire for contact of a sexual nature with men, in the sense that they derive pleasure from contact with men rather than with women, whom they are not permitted to have sexual contact with, in terms of the royal service prerogative. Jesus is using the euphemism of His times to express that there is a section of the community who naturally do not possess any desire for women, and thus that they desire contact with men instead. And this is perfectly natural, in Jesus' eyes. Furthermore, the last part of the quotation is of course not intended to say that people in the church are called to have affection for the same gender - but rather, that no matter the natural sexual inclination, the switch to celibacy (which was enforced, vis a vis contact with women in the royal household) would be something admirable, and difficult to achieve, even if done on behalf of the Kingdom of Heaven...

Continued below..




posted on Jul, 16 2019 @ 05:48 AM
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Thus, Jesus is also referring to the fact that NO MATTER what orientation you naturally possess, enforced celibacy is intolerable & even voluntary celibacy is incredibly hard to cope with & succeed at.

NB - celibates in the Kingdom of Heaven would include members of the priesthood & laity who were committed to working for God over & above serving their own household. Jesus said regarding celibacy for the Kingdom - “THIS IS A HARD TEACHING”. Why would He say that? Because He knew that the scripture would be manhandled & misinterpreted to preclude the involvement in church life of all homosexuals in future times, because the same conditions of prejudice against them have existed since the Fall. He knew that the priesthood would fall into disrepute because of the scandals that would rock His church when the failures of men became a scourge on the very institutions that their short-sighted policy decisions were said to have been made for, particularly concerning the priesthood & celibacy.

Not even the prophets of ancient Israel, neither the priests, were celibate - they had wives, they had children. Only in the Christian faith are many priests living with enforced celibacy, and as the Catholicism scandals have shown, when natural desire for connection with a spouse is denied them, even priests can develop unhealthy desires, and as we know, that leads to suffering children, the only ones the priests can 'get away with' abusing, at least for a number of years, until the children are adults & are no longer scared of what will happen when they tell others about what the priest did to them.

So overall, what is my conclusion? That Jesus did not condemn homosexuals, and that He would merely have asked the same of them as He would ask of heterosexuals – be committed to upholding justice, mercy & humility within your societies, maintain relationship purity in as far as you can – marriage is an ideal which must be protected, and so on (though clearly He would have foreknowledge of how much injustice would accompany these teachings even if homosexuals were 'tolerated' within the church). Rather than mere tolerance, we should be asking the question of each person individually, within or not within the bounds of any relationship to others – what is holiness, and discipline, and purity? Surely the answers to these questions are within every human heart, and we are adjured to seek out these answers as the highest & most noble of human endeavours.

Jesus acknowledged & accepted homosexuals, even if He had to speak in the slightly (but only very slightly) veiled language of the day in order to make His acknowledgement & acceptance obvious to the masses. The trouble, is that the modern church has failed to recognise His clear & open teaching on the matter. Linked to this question of sexual identity, with the counterpoint of relational purity no matter what your innate, from-the-womb sexual preference may become, is that He made it ABUNDANTLY clear that no matter your orientation, the matter of sexual self-discipline “..[I]s a hard teaching”, and thus MERCY reigns over the question of justice (justice, in matters of the heart, is not ours to render anyway...)

So there you have it ATS, and there you have it World – Jesus accepted homosexuality as a natural & innate state of being which is innate & unchangeable under ordinary circumstances (not going into MK-Ultra style trauma conditioning/programming, which blatantly can alter one's sexual identity as well as many other features of the personality, if it is insidious enough over a long enough period of time). Jesus also frequently & sternly rebuked the Pharisees & Sadducees for their literalist, punitive & hardline stance on almost all matters of the Torah, stating repeatedly that they just didn't get it, at all. The Torah was given to demonstrate that there is a fundamental problem with the world we live in, in terms of our human nature being in some way bonded to sinfulness, by which we might envision our soul being caught in the gravity well of a black hole, the abyss of death which was brought into the world through a rebellion which still echoes today. The details we have are sketchy, but the war, it seems, was universal in some sense, or at least galactic – it was 'War in Heaven..'


The Angel, Michael
7 And war broke out in heaven, Michael [the archangel] and his angels waging war with the dragon. The dragon and his angels fought, 8 but they were not strong enough and did not prevail, and there was no longer a place found for them in heaven.



I have a very strong feeling that these prejudicial treatments of the homosexual population of the world, which is always around 2% of the total number of people at any one time – 160,000,000 people globally – are derived from lies told by the dragon at the very beginning, in order to draw newly devoted follower into the satanic covens. However, the scripture is clear – the law has passed away, in its most punitive restrictions, and we therefore should follow Jesus' example, and love all people, not discounting a section of the populace for the sake of ancient misinterpretations & deceptions concerning God's acceptance of them as homosexuals, but more fully & truly as men & women beloved by God as His children too, along with the rest of us.

We are to love mercy over judgement; and indeed, in matters of the heart, judgement belongs to God alone. “The heart wants what the heart wants” has been used to justify appalling perversions (see 'Pizzagate') but it most certainly doesn't translate that homosexuality is by nature any more perverse than ordinary sexual desire (though if it runs amok it is the same negative outcome & risks to one's inner life whichever side of the coin you are). We all must address issues of holiness, purity & devotion to God, for example through our outworking of the Great Commission (celibate people who are truly called on that path make GREAT evangelists..) Not everyone is called to celibacy, not everyone is heterosexual, but all are called to holiness & purity, with the most logical place to begin being a call to relational monogamy, idealised in marriage, but long-term partnerships should be legally & spiritually recognised as an equivalent, in terms of the values adhered to being the same.

It seems time that we should issue the same core proclamation in the modern Protestant churches.

Mercy over justice, mercy over sacrifice, mercy over all.


Zechariah 7:9
“This is what the Lord Almighty said: ‘Administer true justice; show mercy and compassion to one another.'


Amen brother, sister – now go & preach it!






edit on JulyTuesday1917CDT06America/Chicago-050014 by FlyInTheOintment because: tags, clarification



posted on Jul, 16 2019 @ 05:49 AM
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ETA - Double post because ATS is running remarkably slowly



edit on JulyTuesday1917CDT05America/Chicago-050059 by FlyInTheOintment because: per ETA



posted on Jul, 16 2019 @ 05:52 AM
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DP
edit on JulyTuesday1917CDT05America/Chicago-050058 by FlyInTheOintment because: (no reason given)


+18 more 
posted on Jul, 16 2019 @ 06:12 AM
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Nowhere does it say he supports homosexuality, your choosing to interpret his words in a way that suits your agenda.
Exactly like those who say homosexuals will burn in hell.

Live and let live, it’s none of your business.

You can be gay and be a normal person but if your a gay person ie you define yourself by your sexuality, then you are most likely a hedonist at best and a degenerate at worst.
Goes for anyone regardless of sexual preference or fetish, I’d say the same about someone who defined themselves as straight or a sub or whatever if it was not a necessary detail to divulge.

Are you gay and looking for solace or justification?
The thread would make sense if you were

edit on 16/7/2019 by IkNOwSTuff because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 16 2019 @ 06:16 AM
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a reply to: IkNOwSTuff

Your response demonstrates a lack of clear thinking & a misinterpretation of my post. I have no agenda - I am trying to point out an agenda. But hey that's fine, if you're content to sow division & misinterpretation, along with muddled thinking, be my guest.

And LOL at your attempt to cut down the thread by asking if I'm gay. Wow, really? I think you invalidated every comment you ever made just there. For your information no, I'm not gay - but I am angered at the way churches turn away gay people & drive them into a potentially hedonist lifestyle by exclusion. You really, really didn;t understand my OP did you? There, there, it's okay - go play in the sandbox with the others.


edit on JulyTuesday1917CDT06America/Chicago-050019 by FlyInTheOintment because: People be crazy...


+11 more 
posted on Jul, 16 2019 @ 06:25 AM
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Jesus also abhors sin --- "Go and sin no more" He told the adulterous women, not go and continue living in your adulterous ways, and it's clear that sex outside of marriage is sin, any sex, including homosexual sex. Jesus was also very clear on what a marriage was. He defined it quite clearly when asked what divorce is and if it was allowed. Jesus reiterated God -- marriage is between a man and a woman.

So homosexuals may not marry where sex is sanctioned, at least not a man to a man and a woman to a woman, in the eyes of God. They may marry a man to a woman.

If they leave behind sinful behavior, then they are capable of being saved just the same as the rest of us who accept what God said and later Christ.
edit on 16-7-2019 by ketsuko because: (no reason given)


+5 more 
posted on Jul, 16 2019 @ 06:27 AM
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originally posted by: FlyInTheOintment
a reply to: IkNOwSTuff

Your response demonstrates a lack of clear thinking & a misinterpretation of my post. I have no agenda - I am trying to point out an agenda. But hey that's fine, if you're content to sow division & misinterpretation, along with muddled thinking, be my guest.

And LOL at your attempt to cut down the thread by asking if I'm gay. Wow, really? I think you invalidated every comment you ever made just there. For your information no, I'm not gay - but I am angered at the way churches turn away gay people & drive them into a potentially hedonist lifestyle by exclusion. You really, really didn;t understand my OP did you? There, there, it's okay - go play in the sandbox with the others.



I read your op, twice in fact
Your saying Jesus teaches tolerance so it’s what we should practice.

That is completely different to “Jesus supports homosexuals” like your thread title claimed.

If it was a deliberate click bait title then fine but If not why single out homosexuals?
Same could be said of anyone or anything
Jesus supports murderers
Jesus supports people who kick puppies
Jesus supports people who piss on public toilet seats

I came here expecting to see scripture that explicitly supported gays and I was disappointed.

You deliberately mislead with your thread title or you are reaching with your conclusions


+3 more 
posted on Jul, 16 2019 @ 06:35 AM
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Supporting homosexuals and supporting homosexual activity are two entirely different things. You're trying to use the idea that Jesus would have accepted homosexuals as people as evidence that homosexual activity is condoned - this is not correct logic. Jesus also (according to the bible) accepted everyone else - rapists, murderers - who wanted to follow him. That doesn't mean Jesus would have supported the acts of rape and murder. Jesus supports people, not their wrongdoings.
The core of Christianity is living with love for other people - this DOES NOT mean living with a desire to have sex with those people and engaging in perversions. A man can love another man - in fact, that is encouraged - but love and sexual attraction are two entirely different things. When you love someone, it doesn't mean you want to have sex with them. It seems to me that homosexuals often confuse the two and think sexual lust is love.

This idea that someone being sexually attracted to someone else and wanting to have sex with them is love is disgusting and needs to stop.
edit on 7/16/2019 by trollz because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 16 2019 @ 06:42 AM
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That escalated quickly....


The sexual chackra is the most distorted if you have been raised in a Christian, or Muslim country, or basically every religion, that dictates any desired behavior.

You will feel it for yourself!

Disclaimer:
I enjoy intercourse with women

Honestly No Clue



posted on Jul, 16 2019 @ 06:59 AM
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a reply to: FlyInTheOintment

It almost certainly was not the case that anything written in the Bible is making reference to homosexuality. "tolerance" of that is a very, very new thing.



posted on Jul, 16 2019 @ 07:00 AM
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a reply to: FlyInTheOintment



Excellent OP!!! Very well thought out and beautifully said.

Thank you for saying it.



posted on Jul, 16 2019 @ 07:15 AM
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a reply to: FlyInTheOintment


NB - celibates in the Kingdom of Heaven would include members of the priesthood & laity who were committed to working for God over & above serving their own household. Jesus said regarding celibacy for the Kingdom - “THIS IS A HARD TEACHING”. Why would He say that?


Celibacy is a hard teaching because to stay pure one would have to practice abstinence. Focused on the spiritual rather than the sexual physical aspects of their proclivities. It is hard for all of mankind to abstain.

And others above posts are correct. Go forth and sin no more. It is as difficult for heterosexuals to learn as well and is a hard teaching. We should not be judges, but only speak the word as truth.


Edit add: Thus why many who followed Jesus teachings back then began to abstain from sex, even some married women. Their husbands were displeased with Jesus teachings. I will see if I can find the scripture regarding that. Jesus was very much an abstainer abdicator above all else.


edit on 7 16 2019 by CynConcepts because: (no reason given)


Edit add: I was wrong. It was Paul's teaching: 1 Thessalonians 4:3-8 ESV


For this is the will of God, your sanctification: that you abstain from sexual immorality; that each one of you know how to control his own body in holiness and honor, not in the passion of lust like the Gentiles who do not know God; that no one transgress and wrong his brother in this matter, because the Lord is an avenger in all these things, as we told you beforehand and solemnly warned you. For God has not called us for impurity, but in holiness. ...


It was the purity movement idea that when you accepted Jesus, your body became a vessel for the holy spirit and no longer your own. So one should walk in purity. Though his later teachings on marriage did clarify that sex in and of itself was not an impur act between a man and woman who were joined as one in holy matrimony.



edit on 7 16 2019 by CynConcepts because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 16 2019 @ 07:17 AM
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The word eunuch is never used to denote people with intact sexual organs. Neither intersex, transgender or engages in homosexual behavior.

In the old testament being a eunuch was not sinful and did not connote sexual or gender transgressive behavior.

INTERTESTAMENTAL REFERENCES SPEAK OF EUNUCHS HAVING HECTROSEXUAL NOT HOMOSEXUAL DESIRES.

Jesus does not affirm that eunuchs constitute a third gender option or a exception to maleness or femaleness.

Accepting them for us as who they are is the message from Jesus but accepting them into heaven is quite another.

"Go forward and multiply" is gods desire for humanity. - impossible for those described in OP.

Rubbish.



posted on Jul, 16 2019 @ 07:18 AM
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originally posted by: hombero
a reply to: FlyInTheOintment

It almost certainly was not the case that anything written in the Bible is making reference to homosexuality. "tolerance" of that is a very, very new thing.


Another way to look at it is to examine the historical times Jesus lived in. Judea was part of the Roman Empire and homsexuality was common and reasonably accepted by the Romans. It would have been the easiest thing in the world to go with the prevailing social mores like Christians are under heavy pressure to do today and find a way to tolerate and suddenly find it acceptable, but instead Jesus preached counter to those social beliefs.



posted on Jul, 16 2019 @ 07:21 AM
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originally posted by: Boadicea
a reply to: FlyInTheOintment



Excellent OP!!! Very well thought out and beautifully said.

Thank you for saying it.


If not oblivious.



posted on Jul, 16 2019 @ 07:26 AM
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a reply to: FlyInTheOintment

FI just wanted to add this from the same chapter of Matthew, verse 11:

Not everyone can accept this word,” Jesus answered, “but only those to whom it has been given.

I don't pretend to fully understand what Jesus is trying to tell us, and honestly I don't think anyone can fully understand. But Jesus obviously knew that, eh? Jesus must also have known that His words -- and therefore His lesson -- would be garbled by man's limited understanding. Perhaps even by a limited capacity to understand, restricted as it were to the five physical senses.

We can think what we will, but there is absolutely no doubt that Jesus never told us to condemn or hate or judge or vilify anyone, including homosexuals.

Kudos for stepping outside the box and/or echo chamber, and looking at the bigger picture... the grander picture if you will. I very much appreciate your thoughtful and reasonable OP.



posted on Jul, 16 2019 @ 07:28 AM
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originally posted by: ketsuko

originally posted by: hombero
a reply to: FlyInTheOintment

It almost certainly was not the case that anything written in the Bible is making reference to homosexuality. "tolerance" of that is a very, very new thing.


Another way to look at it is to examine the historical times Jesus lived in. Judea was part of the Roman Empire and homsexuality was common and reasonably accepted by the Romans. It would have been the easiest thing in the world to go with the prevailing social mores like Christians are under heavy pressure to do today and find a way to tolerate and suddenly find it acceptable, but instead Jesus preached counter to those social beliefs.



Accepting they are who they want to be is one thing. (Acceptance)

Finding that acceptance acceptable is quite another.

"Go forward and sin no more" is a message to biologically sound males and females to accept them for who they are in order to sin no more- but not a message for them to continue their behavior unconditionally accepted.

edit on 16-7-2019 by CthruU because: 1



posted on Jul, 16 2019 @ 07:28 AM
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a reply to: CthruU

Oblivious to what exactly?

Perhaps I'm slow but I truly have no idea to what you are referring. You can spell it out for me or draw me a picture...



posted on Jul, 16 2019 @ 07:28 AM
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a reply to: ketsuko


Jesus also abhors sin --- "Go and sin no more" He told the adulterous women, not go and continue living in your adulterous ways, and it's clear that sex outside of marriage is sin, any sex, including homosexual sex. Jesus was also very clear on what a marriage was. He defined it quite clearly when asked what divorce is and if it was allowed. Jesus reiterated God -- marriage is between a man and a woman.

So homosexuals may not marry where sex is sanctioned, at least not a man to a man and a woman to a woman, in the eyes of God. They may marry a man to a woman.

If they leave behind sinful behavior, then they are capable of being saved just the same as the rest of us who accept what God said and later Christ.


Your entire post was respectful, educated & compassionate, thanks for contributing - much better than the first comment which rather ungraciously landed in this thread. I absolutely agree on the point of purity & sanctity, regarding the 'sin no more' and regarding the definition of marriage. I did try to be clear that long-term partnerships should be granted equal rights by law, but in the eyes of the church may not be called 'marriage', but I do retain the belief that only God can judge such matters, in terms of whether we accept & love someone who is doing their best to live right? We should love & accept them, and welcome them discreetly into the community. Everyone should be holding up an example of holiness & reverence for the innocence of youth, for the dignity of the elderly & so on, so really it seems not correct to say that they cannot be welcomed into the community, if they are respectful & seek God as much as the next person. It's tricky ground for people to manage, so we defer to God as the judge. But I maintain that Jesus advocated for their inclusion in the society named after Him.




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