Trump's Solution to the Census Debacle - GENIUS!

originally posted by: TheRedneck
a reply to: EternalShadow

What law that subverts the 5th Amendment compels one to answer this question in the first place?

Nowhere in the question does it ask if someone is legal or illegal, only if they are a citizen. It is not illegal to simply not be a citizen; people are foreign nationals all the time without breaking a single law. Therefore the 5th Amendment does not apply.

Please tell me that's not the best the DNC has got? I really expected better.

TheRedneck

Let me clarify:

Is anyone OBLIGATED, by law, to answer any questions as it pertains to a government census?

And yes, the 5th Amendment would apply since it is the government asking, and if you DO consent and answer said questions giving false information, you can be charged with perjury.

Sounds like an 'adhesion oath' without being sworn in to me.

I have told census workers that I do not consent to their questions by way of protection under the 5th Amendment.

They said thank you.

They left.

Nothing happened.

What's stopping anyone else from doing the same?

originally posted by: xuenchen

originally posted by: EternalShadow
What law that subverts the 5th Amendment compels one to answer this question in the first place?

5th Amendment might be one of those "said under oath" things.

Anybody can legally lie just about at any time and anywhere 😎

If you consent and give false or incorrect information, you perjure yourself without being sworn in.

This is the government, to which the Bill of Rights was written to protect against; not some cake store, or chicken sandwich restaurant, thee government we're talking about.

How does the 5th not apply to potentially perjurious government questions, applications or forms?

a reply to: EternalShadow

Well, first of all, let me thank you for being a total jerk to people simply trying to make a living, refusing to abide by the US Constitution, and for making sure those in need in your community are denied their full government benefits.

But to your query: technically, it is against the law to refuse to answer the US Census. That law is never enforced to my knowledge, because it brings up a couple of grey areas in the law concerning privacy and could cause less participation in future Censuses. However, the law against lying on the US Census, not technically perjury but related, is enforced in some cases, but not all. You can also refuse to answer any specific questions. Most of them are fluff for statistical purposes, but a few are actually very useful: full name, age, SS number, occupation.

What happens is: you should receive the Census form in the mail. If you fill it out and send it in, chances are nothing else will ever happen. Your PII (Personally Identifiable Information) is closely guarded and never released until long after you should be dead. There is no coordination with law enforcement for any reason (unless you hurt a Census Enumerator).

If you ignore the form, a Census Enumerator (usually someone who lives in the area like you) will show up at your home. If you aren't home, they will come back... and back... and back... it's their job to find you at home so they can get the forms filled out. If you manage to avoid them altogether or refuse to answer their questions (in which case, their instructions are to leave and note the form for a supervisor to visit), a supervisor will visit you. If you ignore them or tell them to leave, they will... but your representation in Washington for the next ten years will be decreased, government aid to the community will be decreased, and should any of your future relatives ever try to research their family tree, there's one more asset unavailable to them.

If you ever harm or even seriously threaten to harm a Census Enumerator, the procedure is for them to leave and then contact their supervisor. The supervisor will then contact the FBI, and you will be arrested. That's hard time in a Federal penitentiary. They may be temporary, part-time employees, but they are Federal employees of the DoC. You might as well attack a post office employee... same charge.

If you have more than one building on your property, chances are you'll get a visit even though you mailed the form in. All buildings must be verified to be empty or be counted. I have driven up little dirt trails that took me a half-day to even find to get to a hunting cabin that hadn't been used in years, just so I could report officially that it was vacant. The Constitution requires an accurate count, and the DoC takes great pains to give them as accurate a count as possible.

TheRedneck

a reply to: EternalShadow

The 5th Amendment protects you against self-incrimination. There are no questions on the US Census forms that answering would be considered a crime. Therefore, it is impossible to self-incriminate yourself on the US Census.

Even an illegal alien could truthfully answer the questions, including the question on citizenship, without incriminating themselves. The only way to incriminate yourself is to lie on the form, which is not protected by the 5th Amendment.

TheRedneck

Nevermind.

The U.S. Census Bureau mails the decennial census and the American Community Survey questionnaires to millions of Americans. Many people consider the questions either too time-consuming or too invasive and, as a result, fail to respond. However, responding to all census questionnaires is required by federal law.

While it rarely happens, the U.S. Census Bureau can impose fines for failing to answer their questionnaires or for intentionally providing false information.

According to Title 13, Section 221 (Census, Refusal or neglect to answer questions; false answers) of the United States Code, persons who fail or refuse to respond to the mail-back census form, or refuse to respond to a follow-up census taker, can be fined up to $100. Persons who knowingly provide false information to the census can be fined up to $500. The Census Bureau points out online that under Section 3571 of Title 18, the fine for refusing to answer a bureau survey can be as much as $5,000.

Before imposing a fine, the Census Bureau typically attempts to personally contact and interview persons who fail to respond to census questionnaires.

www.thoughtco.com...

a reply to: EternalShadow

I have never heard of anyone being fined for refusing to answer a Census, nor had my supervisor in 2010, and rarely have I even heard of anyone being fined for giving false answers. The few times I have heard of that it has been pretty severe lies, and never from anywhere close to me geographically: making up someone who doesn't exist, trying to get people counted twice, etc.

The DoC is not out to get you. Sorry.

TheRedneck

a reply to: TheRedneck

Yes, I found my answer to what I was asking specifically.

Seems I quite possibly dodged a bullet, lol.

I can see your point as it is a federal crime for the Census Bureau or their employees to share or otherwise divulge your personal information for LIFE no less.

In this day and age however, I highly doubt that's "iron clad", but it is law.

With so much of our lives being tracked, monitored, recorded, and compiled, it's tough for some of us to consent to what is defined as a civic duty.

That resistance may derive from a consistent track record of Representatives not doing representing the actual will of the People, amongst other blatant disregard and shenanigans.

a reply to: EternalShadow

I understand all that completely. At one time I was hesitant to talk to a Census Enumerator, too. Why did they need to know so much about me?

Then I realized that Congressional apportionment and government assistance money are both tied in to the Census. if not for the Census, we would still have only representatives in Congress from 13 states. People are born, people die, people move... and once in ten years is a long way from heinous.

Then when I actually worked the 2010 Census, I realized just how important it really was and how many safeguards against abuse there are. In orientation we were all warned that any divulgence of PII (and yes, that's for life) would result in immediate termination, no questions asked, and could easily result in Federal prosecution. I saw one guy back then who just mentioned the name of one of his route to another Census worker over dinner, and our supervisor heard it. He was fired on the spot, his forms were all confiscated, and he was told to not come back. That was for a casual mention of a name!

I got some of his route... more money for me! Yay!

So it's pretty iron clad. I'm not going to say nothing ever slips through a crack, but I would say you have a better chance of being hit by lightning, in an airplane, over water, while dreaming about purple kittens than you do of having anything bad happen over giving Census information.

I may try to work for them again in 2020... good money and I set my own hours. Just doesn't last long.

TheRedneck

After having read some of this thread, i can safely say a few people expressed their thought of the brilliance of the op. Some did not. And i see little brilliance here

Yeah, it's well documented that Trump is a stable genius. It's difficult to watch sheep at play.

a reply to: EternalShadow

Let me clarify:

Is anyone OBLIGATED, by law, to answer any questions as it pertains to a government census?

And yes, the 5th Amendment would apply since it is the government asking, and if you DO consent and answer said questions giving false information, you can be charged with perjury.

Sounds like an 'adhesion oath' without being sworn in to me.

I have told census workers that I do not consent to their questions by way of protection under the 5th Amendment.

They said thank you.

They left.

Nothing happened.

What's stopping anyone else from doing the same?

Unfortunately, most Americans have a hard time getting past the 2nd amendment while there is still a large percentage who have absolutely no clue to even what the 1st amendment is and or does.

a reply to: TheRedneck

I wonder why trump doesn't know that the census bureau already draws data from both DHS and social security in compiling information on citizenship?

I worked for the US Department of commerce

I was an Office Operations Supervisor for the Census

I actually helped run a few field operations.


Donald Trump wanting a citizenship question is a HUGE issue. You all have NO idea.

Per the department of commerce the goal of the census is to COUNT EVERYONE. We had operations to Target homeless communities... We even sent people out into the woods, vast wooded areas canvassing the wilderness searching for encampments.

The notion of whether someone is legal or not... Was made very clear that it did not matter. It didn't concern us. We needed to count everyone, legal, illegal, homeless, apartment.. whatever..

If they got citizenship put on the census it would be a huge issue.

Our enumerators have a tough enough time as it is getting people to respond. Illegals are extremely difficult to interview because they are terrified they will be reported. They had to be constantly reassured that no one would know, and that their data is shared with NO ONE! Census data is some of the highest protected data our government has.

Putting citizenship non the questionnaire puts meeting the goal of the operation in jeapordy.

The goal is not to count citizens.. it's to count people living here.

originally posted by: Sillyolme
a reply to: TheRedneck

I wonder why trump doesn't know that the census bureau already draws data from both DHS and social security in compiling information on citizenship?

I wonder if Nancy Pelosi knows that and why she hasn't said so ? 😎

a reply to: Zelun

It is my guess that the Trump Team opted to use the Commerce Department instead of the DHS for info collection & Accuracy because the Trump Team knows full well that Muslim Brotherhood Agents are holdovers in many (but Not All) Agencies ~~~

Commerce is one of the least compromised Agencies...

so DHS/DOJ/State/FBI/CIA/NSA are all being ratcheted down in Status because of the Swamp creatures and Deep State Bad Actors running loose in the System






ETA


Passports require citizenship proof...

asking IF the respondent is going to apply for a passport or already has one issued to them would be a type of workaround in asking for proof of citizenship...or in perjury charges if necessary

a reply to: Sillyolme

This Executive Order ensures that all data requested is available. That's the difference. DHS, SS, etc. now are to share what the DoC wants to see, not just what they want them to see.

TheRedneck

a reply to: St Udio

I think it's simpler than that. DoC is the agency in charge of the Census already.

TheRedneck

a reply to: Lucidparadox

Just wanted to say thanks for pointing out how... dare I use the word?... sacred... PII is to the DoC.

TheRedneck

originally posted by: network dude
a reply to: TheRedneck

I am curious, if the illegals are no longer of use to the democrats, will they still care about them and their plight?

They're still useful. There will still be illegal voting.

originally posted by: network dude
a reply to: TheRedneck

I am curious, if the illegals are no longer of use to the democrats, will they still care about them and their plight?

I predict a swing back to the bathroom debate.