Donald Trump: S400-F35 tension between US, Turkey Obama's fault, not Ankara's

Heres a snippet from the article


"However, Trump used a softer tone over the issue after a meeting with Turkish President Erdogan on the sidelines of the G20 summit in Osaka, Japan, on Saturday. He blamed his predecessor Barack Obama for causing the current US-Ankara row by not selling US Patriot missile systems to Turkey.

“Obama administration said no, no, no to Turkey when they wanted to purchase Patriots and they [Turkey] bought S-400,” Trump said in a joint press conference with Erdogan, calling Obama administration's reluctance and failure to sell Patriots to Turkey a “mess.”

He also described his Turkish counterpart as a “tough guy”, with whom he can “get along”, while calling the whole issue “a problem.” The American president also criticized the Obama administration for not treating Erdogan “fairly.”



Nice flip flop from Trump towards the frenemies,Congress will be thrilled


Source

a reply to: IMSAM

It does raise a couple good questions.
Why did the Obama administration refuse a patriot missle sale to a nato country?

And also if the Russian missle system is not compatible with the f35, why would they want them?

I have a bunch of VHS players but I'm buying betamax tapes.....
Ok....

a reply to: IMSAM

I would appreciate an honest answer to one question, before I get into the actual issue.

Did you actually watch the presser where Trump was talking about this, in response to a specific question? It was in the middle of the night (US time).

I watched it live, and can tell you, he didn't "blame" anyone. He simply put the issue in perspective, as to how aTurkey was put in a no win position.

a reply to: Bluntone22

Turkey is one of those craphole places. They will always lay with whoever kisses their arse the best.

It must be such a diplomatic nightmare as we support the Kurds and the Turks try to kill them. The price one pays for being in a strategic location the Russia.

a reply to: lakenheath24

Your response didn't address Bluntone22s questions, or were you just bashing Turkey?

Like them, or not, they are a paying member of NATO.

Either throw them out, or respect them as other NATO countries are.

Can't have it both ways.

a reply to: Mach2



I care more about f35s being compromised more than anything else,said blame was "pinned" on the sidelines of this summiLink from a turkish source

originally posted by: IMSAM
a reply to: Mach2



I care more about f35s being compromised more than anything else,said blame was "pinned" on the sidelines of this summiLink from a turkish source

What does the F-35 situation have to do with the refusal to sell Turkey the Patriot missile system? That was the original problem. Are they a NATO ally, or not?

If you don't want to sell them the airframe, then dont take thier $, and don't give them a piece of the manufacturing responsibility. In this case, I believe they make landing gear components.

You didn't answer my question. Did you watch the presser, or are you just that confident in the media. Surely the media would never propagate a bias, and out if context opinion......lol.

a reply to: Mach2

What are you....the response police??? I answered it perfectly well. The Turks will buy from whomever. They have zero loyalty to anyone but Turkey. Have you not read about the Turk F35 pilot training program being suspended?

I mean how much more clear can it be? Turkey wanted F35's from the start yet bought a Russian anti aircraft missile? For real? Ergo why the problem selling them Patriots? Cuz...they hate the Kurds....and the US supports the Kurds.

originally posted by: lakenheath24
a reply to: Mach2

What are you....the response police??? I answered it perfectly well. The Turks will buy from whomever. They have zero loyalty to anyone but Turkey. Have you not read about the Turk F35 pilot training program being suspended?

I mean how much more clear can it be? Turkey wanted F35's from the start yet bought a Russian anti aircraft missile? For real? Ergo why the problem selling them Patriots? Cuz...they hate the Kurds....and the US supports the Kurds.

If that is the reason, it is a dumb ass one.

How could they plausibly use a Patriot air defense system against the Kurds? Do they have an air force?

Look, I'm not a big supporter of Turkey. I think Ergoden is a zealot, who represses certain groups, and directly harms others.

In this case, however, the US overplayed their hand, and then acted like little bitches when the Turks went a different direction.

They aren't saints, but neither are many of the regimes we support.

It's obvious to me that you didn't, and have no intention of watching the press conference, so you really can't speak to the context of what Trump said.

I wouldn't normally care, but you brought Trump into something that predated his administration, then accused him of a "flip flop", with no first hand knowledge of the question he was asked, nor the context in which he answered.

TDS is real

a reply to: Mach2

It has nothing to do with using them against the Kurds. It was the carrot and stick approach that's been used many times. If the Turkish government stopped trying to wipe the Kurds out we'd be happy to sell them Patriot batteries. If they kept trying to kill them, they don't get access to them. And as usual, it didn't work.

a reply to: Mach2

You must be confusing me with the op.. i never mentione Trump...nor do I have TDS. What I DO have is a bit of experience being stationed in Turkey.

You need to read up on Turkey, it sounds like you are ignorant in some aspects of international diplomacy. A NATO country buying Russian anti aircraft missiles????? Did you consider the implications of that????

originally posted by: lakenheath24
a reply to: Mach2

You must be confusing me with the op.. i never mentione Trump...nor do I have TDS. What I DO have is a bit of experience being stationed in Turkey.

You need to read up on Turkey, it sounds like you are ignorant in some aspects of international diplomacy. A NATO country buying Russian anti aircraft missiles????? Did you consider the implications of that????

Yes, i do get the implications.

Do you see the problem with refusing sale of a missile defense system to a NATO ally? One that is closer to the hotspot that is the middle east, than any of the others?

a reply to: Mach2

Jeezus man...did I not say that? Turkey is playing both sides. Obama probably had a reason but who knows why.

Whatever happened to this proposed sale?

www.reuters.com...

a reply to: terrapincb

That's what caused the spat. It was approved, but like so many other deals under the previous administration it never really went anywhere. They began talks in March about it going forward, but it hasn't really gone anywhere yet.

Are we all going to ignore Erdogan basically sanitized and purged his country of any dissenters after the failed military coup? A coup that took place because Erdogan is a theocratic Islamic fundamentalist that is trying to become the next Ottoman Sultan, and it is in the old Turkish constitution for the military to defend the Turkish state from becoming a theocratic state and always maintaining their secular status. These are principles that were made by Kemal Atatürk in the Turkish constitution, he was the 1st president of Turkey after the fall of the Ottoman Empire.

Funny how so many people in this discussion ignore or forget that this has happened and probably played a big role in American foreign policy in regard to Turkey. There is no denying, Turkish-American and even Turkish-Western relations have been souring since the Arab spring, and Erdogan coming out of the closet as a Muslim Brotherhood pawn...

Or how about the fact that we ignore when Erdogan threatened to send 15,000 refugees from Syria to Europe every month if Europe didn't support the constitutional referendum started by Erdogan after the failed coup to oust him and subsequent purging of his political rivals...
www.businessinsider.com...

NATO ally or not, they are no longer the reliable ally we had that would hold missiles in their land to provoke the Soviet Union. They are soon on the path to becoming the Benedict Arnold of NATO, and siding with the east, whether officially or unofficially. I just hope Trump keeps his witts about them.

Keep your friends close but your enemies closer.

Laicism
Main articles: Secularism in Turkey and Islam in Turkey

The laicism (Turkish: laiklik) of Kemalist ideology aims to banish religious interference in government affairs, and vice versa. It differs from the passive Anglo-American concept of secularism,[14] but is similar to the concept of laïcité in France.

The roots of Kemalist secularism lie in the reform efforts in the late Ottoman Empire, especially the Tanzimat period and the later Second Constitutional Era. The Ottoman Empire was an Islamic state in which the head of the Ottoman state held the position of the Caliph. The social system was organized according to various systems, including the religiously-organized Millet system and Shari'ah law, allowing religious ideology to be incorporated into the Ottoman administrative, economic, and political system. This way of life is today defined as Islamism (political Islam): "the belief that Islam should guide social and political as well as personal life".[15] In the Second Constitutional Era, the Ottoman Parliament pursued largely secular policies, although techniques of religious populism and attacks on other candidates' piety still occurred between Ottoman political parties during elections. These policies were stated as the reason for the countercoup of 1909 by Islamists and absolute monarchists. The secular policies of the Ottoman parliament also factored in the Arab Revolt during World War I.

When secularism was implemented in the fledgling Turkish state, it was initiated by the abolition of the centuries-old Caliphate in March 1924. The office of Shaykh al-Islām was replaced with the Presidency of Religious Affairs (Turkish: Diyanet). In 1926, the Mejelle and shari'ah law codes were abandoned in favor of an adapted Swiss Civil Code and a penal code modeled on the German and Italian codes. Other religious practices were done away with, including the dissolution of Sufi orders and the penalization of wearing a Fez, which was viewed by Atatürk as a tie to the Ottoman past.

en.wikipedia.org...

If anyone would like to read up on the philosophy of the founding of the modern state of Turkey and their principles, the "6 arrows" of Kemalism.

On 5 June 2008, Turkey's Constitutional Court annulled the parliament's proposed amendment intended to lift the headscarf ban, ruling that removing the ban would run counter to official secularism. While the highest court's decision to uphold the headscarf ban cannot be appealed (AP 7 June 2008), the government has nevertheless indicated that it is considering adopting measures to weaken the court's authority.

What a free and democratic ally of ours. Guess we had a huge misrepresentation of what Turkey is today from what Turkey was yesterday. Do I like Obama? I think he's one of the worst presidents of all time. Do I agree with his position against Turkey? Absolutely. I think he should have gone as far as removing them from NATO after those purges, but we're playing our cards too, this is a chess game with Russia and we're not looking to give away pawns.

a reply to: Bluntone22

The US never refused to sell Turkey the Patriot system.

The truth is that Turkey wanted a complete technology transfer, the US refused. So Turkey never bought the Patriot.

Russia is not giving Turkey a tech transfer either. But Turkey is still going for the S400.


Turkey isn't getting the F35, when the new sanctions kick in Turkey will be cut off from all US military supplies. The majority of its military relies on US tech. That means, that even supplies or tech from Europe will be prohibited to be provided to Turkey as most of it relies on one US component or another.

Turkey has undergone a major shift, most westerners don't realize. It's not just a shift in government, the populace is massively anti-American, and massively anti-Israel. Israel has the F35. Turkey often talks about liberating Palestine. Do you really think the US is going to sell such advanced weaponary to a country threatening Israel?

On top of that, Turkey is trying to destabilize the Eastern Mediterranean.
The Eastern Mediterranean is currently the scene of an alliance between Israel, Greece and Cyprus that is overseen by the USA, centered on energy security.
Greece and Israel have just installed an over the horizon radar system on the island of Crete. Guess in which direction it is pointed and who it is monitoring? That's right, Turkey.

A few months ago, Turkey threatened to sink vessels belonging to Italian company ENI in Cyprus' EEZ. ENI backed off from that licensed block. The French responded by deploying their navy.

The USA has just lifted a decades old and pointless arms embargo on the Republic of Cyprus. At the same time, it's preparing to hit Turkey with sanctions that will impact it's military massively.

And yes, anyone can point out that Turkey has a defence industry. But what most people haven't realized, because Turkey conceals these facts, is that it has only excelled so quickly in that area because it is paying foreign corporations for their technology and assistance. It is not Turkish ingenuity. The Altay tank for example, along with the Firtina howitzer, are clones of South Korean equivalents. The T129 attack helicopter, that's just an Italian designed helicopter that Turkey bought the rights to. And many more examples if you dig deep your selves.

Trump can say what he likes face to face with other world leaders. But the reality is different, and even Trump knows that.


Even a change in government in Turkey wont bring Turkey back into the fold with the West, because even its opposition parties are as crazy as Erdogan.

a reply to: mortex

And I forgot to add that the US has already stopped the shipment of F35 related materials to Turkey and they are gearing up alternatives to the components made in Turkey for the F35.
Training of Turkish pilots in the US has also been suspended.

They are even exploring alternative customers for the 100 F35s turkey wanted..which will likely be sold at a discounted price its being alleged.
Among potential new customers for the F35 are Poland and Greece. Greece is considering buying a squadron. Poland is probably closer to buying some.

Ah well we will find out in a couple of weeks what happens..if the first s400 deliveries occur.

So the first parts of the S400 have arrived in Turkey, and Trumps aides have apparently prepared the first set of sanctions. Supposedly theyre waiting till after the fake coup anniversary to announce them to avoid the brainless accusations and connections between the two from the idiotic Turkish government and extremists there.
As you know they blame the US for the attempted coup, even though ir conveniently helped Erdogan solidify his grip on power.

I suspect the sanctions will be against individuals or groups involved with the S400 deal.

What the US needs to do is stop treating Turkey like an ally because it is not an ally but an enemy or the west.

Build a new base in northern Iraq, in Kurdistan, to replace Incirlik. Upgrade the British bases in Cyprus, and jointly use the Paphos airbase in Cyprus that Greece built (the French use it already). And go ahead with plans to build more bases in Greece. Install radars in Cyprus, Greece and northern Iraq, as well as Bulgaria and Romania to replace radars in Turkey. Relocate nukes from Incirlik to Bulgaria, and Romania and back in Greece as well.

Over 80% of Turks hate America and the west and viewthe western world as the biggest threat to Turkey. Do you think ita a coincidence someone like Erdogan who is anti west has remained in power so long?
They hate us. They are and always have been just another fanatical anti-western, anti-Christian Islamic # hole country. Go back 100~ odd years ago and they the Turks were massacring Christians by the millions. They committed genocide and ethnic cleansing. Mind you with the help of German overseers.

I believe the US has begun doing all of the above with regards to reposturing its forces in the region. Maybe not the Iraq base, but they should. Rumours are the nukes are in Bulgaria already. And Greece and the US are discussing new bases. The US does use the British bases in Cyprus.
And Greece and Israel have built a new over the horizon radar looking east at Turkey and probably Iran. A Greek owned north American company has stepped in and taken control of major ship yards in Greece and turned them around, with potential new navy ships soon. The US just sold 70 Kiowas to Greece, they are upgrading some of their F16s to the latest V model. And almost a dozen new navy choppers, armed, are being sold too.
They also lifted the embargo from Cyprus meaning Cyprus can be armed with US weapons.

Slowly slowly the US is sending messages to Turkey dont f$@^ around or else, but the Turks wont listen. So Turkeys enemies (od its own making) are and will be armed amf equipped and Turkey will be contained and isolated.
Same way the US is arming and equipping Asia Pacific nations to contain China, just on a smaller scale.

Lets not forget 2003 when Turkey tried to extort the US for tens of billions to allow access for a northern front in Iraq, that forced the US to change plans and cost them thousands of lives. And the many other transgressions from Turkey over the years.

Within a decade expect the decades old Security Council resolutions against Turkey to be enforced.