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Nancy Pelosi Caves: Trump Wins Again

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posted on Jun, 28 2019 @ 11:22 PM
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originally posted by: scraedtosleep
a reply to: TheRedneck




The simple fact is that no matter how many facts are presented, those who advocate for open borders and free immigration


I don't advocate for ether of those things.

My position is that while those people are in the centers they should be treated humanly and with dignity.
They should not be treated like thugs and hardened criminals.

I would further say that even thugs and hardened criminals should be treated with humanity and dignity.


The only reason they weren't being treated humanely was because the Democrats you love so much held up the funding needed. And the same kind of conditions existed during Obama's presidency, the media just ignored it. This is all politics and pandering for votes from gullible people who didn't give two #s about these illegal immigrants until Trump took office. That's all.
edit on 28 6 19 by face23785 because: (no reason given)




posted on Jun, 28 2019 @ 11:52 PM
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a reply to: scraedtosleep

I don't necessarily disagree with you on treating people with dignity and humanity. I suspect we may differ on what that entails, however.

If dignity and humanity means having an easy life provided by taxpayers as a reward for heinous criminal activity, then I would strongly disagree. Thugs and hardened criminals cannot be released into society, and should not be rewarded for their behavior. Sufficient food, yes. Gourmet food? Hell, no! They should not eat any better than a law-abiding poor citizen. Access to things like TV and Internet? Only for lesser offenses, not for hardened criminals. Conjugal visits? Same thing.

Prison is not supposed to be easy; it is supposed to be hard. Otherwise it is not punishment and the law has no meaning.

Now, just crossing the border is a misdemeanor, and at the time of apprehension, most of these people are not known to be guilty of anything more. They should not be treated like thugs and hardened criminals. That said, they also should not be sitting in 5-star hotel suites at taxpayer expense. They chose to break the law, therefore the definition of dignity and humanity drops based on the severity of their crime.

Let's do a comparison. I have been inside a county jail before in my wild and crazy youth, for a minor offense. I was not allowed to go anywhere. I was brought food and water daily, but I had no say in what type of food; I could eat it or not. if I were to fall ill, basic medical care would be provided, as long as I was sufficiently restrained during the care. My toilet was a basic pot in the corner. There were thin blankets and a thin mattress on a raised metal cot and one small pillow. There was no other linen or toiletries, save a roll of cheap toilet paper. There was no TV, and this was before Internet. This was for a minor crime; I had not hurt anyone, nor had I even threatened anyone (and no, I will not elucidate on that farther).

So as long as these immigrants have somewhere to lay down, some semblance of toilet facilities, reasonable food, and the bare necessities of toiletries and linen, that is dignity and humanity for those who have committed a misdemeanor that requires detention. If you ask me, the thugs and hardened criminals you speak of deserve nothing but bread and water for food; that is my definition of dignity and humanity for them, based on their actions in society.

I was bailed out, so my stay was short. But bail can and is withheld where the person is a flight risk. I can think of no one who is a greater flight risk than someone with no ID and no ties to the area but others who are willing to hide them from authorities. Had I been caught for the same crime in another state, I doubt I would have gotten bail that could be made, and I would have had to stay there until my trial.

The situation here is that these immigrants are having to wait months and sometimes over a year for their trial, due to the fact that the system is overwhelmed. That is no one's fault but the immigrants'. I would be upset if I learned that the immigration judges were intentionally delaying hearings on asylum to keep people in detention, but that is not what is happening. What is happening is that so many are coming in that we cannot process them fast enough. We would need more immigration judges than we have applicants!

That's why I like the idea of returning them to Mexico. If they are serious about wanting asylum in the US, they will have to prove it before gaining admittance, and their living conditions will be better in Mexico since there is little chance of them disappearing into a Mexican sanctuary city. At the level of their crime, it is not as much about punishment as it is about not rewarding their behavior. It also forces Mexico to take some responsibility for allowing their own borders to be breached.

It should be that an illegal alien can claim asylum and be heard within a couple of months. I would love to see that time shortened to a couple of weeks. but that simply cannot possibly happen at this time because of the overload. Every illegal immigrant we release into the country who does not show up for their hearing increases the wait time of everyone else needlessly. Every illegal immigrant who does not meet the requirements for asylum is holding back those who do qualify. The situation is causing us to be unable to allow those who truly need asylum because we are literally catering to criminals and opportunists who have no legitimate claim to be here. That situation must stop.

TheRedneck



posted on Jun, 29 2019 @ 12:19 AM
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a reply to: TheRedneck

One thing that keeps getting ignored is that our facilities are overrun! We are handling a level of illegal immigration that these facilities were not designed to handle. We did not design the immigration system this way. All of the pictures are of a facility far above its intended occupancy/capacity. Shall we kick out the excess and have them sleep outside?

Furthermore, democrats have neglected funding of the border because they're so worried trump might solve the problem in a way they don't want it solved (honestly, they don't want it solved at all). They limited the number of beds because they wanted catch and release. They didn't expect trump to take the PR hit and it ended up backfiring on them as they are taking the PR hit as they struggle and fight about fixing the problem they created.



posted on Jun, 29 2019 @ 12:29 AM
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One of Above Top Secret's most talented members posted a summary of this past week that (IMO) every American needs to read, and let soak into the logical part of our brain.

Here is a link to CrankyOldMan's post: www.abovetopsecret.com...



posted on Jun, 29 2019 @ 12:37 AM
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a reply to: TheRedneck

Ahh yes, separating families, holding them for years at a time in substandard facilities, destroying paperwork so that the children can never be reunited. But it's for their own good because what if some of the people crossing could potentially be criminals?

Know the best way to end human trafficking? Let anyone who wants to enter the country do so. Then there's no illegal immigration to keep out, and no way for cartels to abuse it.
edit on 29-6-2019 by Aazadan because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 29 2019 @ 12:41 AM
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a reply to: carewemust

One of the best posts in ATS history.

Calling it now.



posted on Jun, 29 2019 @ 12:42 AM
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originally posted by: DorianSoran

originally posted by: Aazadan

We shouldn't be running concentration camps at all


Are you for real? Do you understand that people are being held because they BROKE THE LAW? (or their parents broke the law and we cannot have kids running around without parents, that would be irresponsible - just like bringing a kid along when you BREAK THE LAW!)

Here read up, educate yourself, grow some smarts, think for yourself and get back to me. PLEASE, we as country need you for our future - but we need the educated you, not the CNN watching, MSNBC, Nancy Pelosi parrot you are now.

"concentration camp - a place where large numbers of people, especially political prisoners or members of persecuted minorities, are deliberately imprisoned in a relatively small area with inadequate facilities, to provide forced labor or to await mass execution. The term is most strongly associated with the several hundred camps established by the Nazis in Germany and occupied Europe in 1933–45, among the most infamous being Dachau, Belsen, and Auschwitz."


Were currently at 1935 Dachau, not 1945 Auschwitz. That's still a concentration camp.



posted on Jun, 29 2019 @ 12:44 AM
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a reply to: Aazadan




Were currently at 1935 Dachau, not 1945 Auschwitz. That's still a concentration camp.





posted on Jun, 29 2019 @ 12:46 AM
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a reply to: face23785




Democrats you love so much


I don't love them.



And the same kind of conditions existed during Obama's presidency

Yep. And now it continues.



This is all politics and pandering for votes from gullible people who didn't give two #s about these illegal

True for both sides including trump.



held up the funding needed

proof? Because they put up the first bill the repubs wouldn't sign. Then signed a bill that they didn't like just because they knew it needed to get done.

Did repubs try to get money for these people before this week? Can you link to those bills that the dems voted no on?



posted on Jun, 29 2019 @ 12:46 AM
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a reply to: Aazadan



Know the best way to end human trafficking? Let anyone who wants to enter the country do so. Then there's no illegal immigration to keep out, and no way for cartels to abuse it.


Know the best way to end murder? Let anyone who wants to do it, do so! Then there is no murder to worry about and nothing to waste our time investigating.

You guys are geniuses.



posted on Jun, 29 2019 @ 12:50 AM
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originally posted by: Dfairlite
a reply to: Aazadan



Know the best way to end human trafficking? Let anyone who wants to enter the country do so. Then there's no illegal immigration to keep out, and no way for cartels to abuse it.


Know the best way to end murder? Let anyone who wants to do it, do so! Then there is no murder to worry about and nothing to waste our time investigating.

You guys are geniuses.


That is still murder. Illegals are only exploited by others creating an underclass due to the fact that they lack the same legal status as everyone else. As long as that is the case, you will always have people smuggle others into the US, and you will always have people willing to work under the table and undercut citizens.

Unless everyone in the country is on equal legal footing, a group of people will always be exploited. Do away with the concept of illegal residents, and you do away with what creates that underclass.



posted on Jun, 29 2019 @ 12:51 AM
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a reply to: TheRedneck




Now, just crossing the border is a misdemeanor, and at the time of apprehension, most of these people are not known to be guilty of anything more. They should not be treated like thugs and hardened criminals.


All I want is for people to agree with this.



That's why I like the idea of returning them to Mexico. If they are serious about wanting asylum in the US,

Part of the deal trump made with mexico is that asylum seekers must seek it in the first country they come to.
I like that. In fact I like everything trumps doing to work with and get help from mexico.



We would need more immigration judges than we have applicants!

I don't know if the new border bill will fund more judges but it should. This has been an issue from the start.



posted on Jun, 29 2019 @ 01:16 AM
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a reply to: Aazadan

No it isn't. Murder is the illegal taking of life. If it's not illegal, it's not murder. Sure, there's killing, just like there is still border crossing in your scenario. My point is to illustrate that you don't seem to understand the reasoning behind illegal immigration being illegal. It's not just because we want more laws. It's because there are benefits associated with being in this country (citizen or otherwise), as well as the control of who we allow in and out as well as what we allow in and out. Under your scenario we would be bankrupt and overrun within a year or two.



posted on Jun, 29 2019 @ 01:33 AM
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a reply to: scraedtosleep


All I want is for people to agree with this.

I think if you'll look at the intent in what they say, you will find that most people do. When someone (like Aazadan above... I'll get to him) goes all crazy on the idea of no punishment whatsoever for breaking laws, then you will get others solidifying their stance as well. It's just human nature to push back when pushed.


Part of the deal trump made with mexico is that asylum seekers must seek it in the first country they come to.
I like that. In fact I like everything trumps doing to work with and get help from mexico.

All I want is for people to agree with this.




I don't know if the new border bill will fund more judges but it should. This has been an issue from the start.

I scanned through it and I think it does. I also think it won't be enough, considering the present backlog and influx we are experiencing. But, it's better than nothing.

At least Mexico is finally stopping the flow at the source... for now. If Trump relaxes pressure on them, though, expect things to heat back up. That's one reason the wall is so important: if there is a physical barrier, most of the immigrants form South America will be staying in Mexico no matter what happens with the trade deal. Good fences make good neighbors.

TheRedneck



posted on Jun, 29 2019 @ 01:41 AM
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a reply to: Aazadan


Ahh yes, separating families, holding them for years at a time in substandard facilities, destroying paperwork so that the children can never be reunited. But it's for their own good because what if some of the people crossing could potentially be criminals?

First of all, that's not what I said.

Second of all, if you're against separating families, you are automatically against enforcing any and all laws. No one goes to prison and gets to bring their family.

And finally, it's not that some of them might be criminals... all of them are guilty of breaking immigration law. That is a crime, and that makes them, by definition, all criminals. Not all hardened criminals and thugs, but all criminals.


Know the best way to end human trafficking? Let anyone who wants to enter the country do so. Then there's no illegal immigration to keep out, and no way for cartels to abuse it.

Making something legal does not stop it. This is not backwards-world. That's three doors down on the left, behind the door marked "Democrats." Or is it "Starcomed"? I forget. Oh,well, something like that.

I hear they saved you a reserved seat of honor marked "Aazadan." Or was it "Nadazaa"?

TheRedneck

edit on 6/29/2019 by TheRedneck because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 29 2019 @ 04:02 AM
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a reply to: TheRedneck




I think if you'll look at the intent in what they say, you will find that most people do. When someone (like Aazadan above... I'll get to him) goes all crazy on the idea of no punishment whatsoever for breaking laws, then you will get others solidifying their stance as well. It's just human nature to push back when pushed.


My frustration with people is because I know this is true. And when everyone is pushing I feel like i need to make people admit it.




At least Mexico is finally stopping the flow at the source... for now. If Trump relaxes pressure on them, though, expect things to heat back up. That's one reason the wall is so important: if there is a physical barrier, most of the immigrants form South America will be staying in Mexico no matter what happens with the trade deal. Good fences make good neighbors.

You probably know I think the wall is a waste of money. I'm hoping trump works such a good deal that we don't need it.
But right now were agreeing so lets leave that debate for another thread. I'm sure there will be a fresh one soon.

edit on 29-6-2019 by scraedtosleep because: (no reason given)

edit on 29-6-2019 by scraedtosleep because: (no reason given)

edit on 29-6-2019 by scraedtosleep because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 29 2019 @ 05:31 AM
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originally posted by: scraedtosleep
a reply to: TheRedneck




Almost all of them cross hoping to avoid CBP. Otherwise, they would be crossing at Ports of Entry


Can you prove that most that are in the detention centers are not arriving at ports of entry.


Border at ‘Breaking Point’ as More Than 76,000 Unauthorized Migrants Cross in a Month

www.nytimes.com...

They are not coming in at ports of entry. They are crossing in unauthorized areas and being picked up by border patrol.



posted on Jun, 29 2019 @ 05:33 AM
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originally posted by: Aazadan

originally posted by: Dfairlite
a reply to: Aazadan



Know the best way to end human trafficking? Let anyone who wants to enter the country do so. Then there's no illegal immigration to keep out, and no way for cartels to abuse it.


Know the best way to end murder? Let anyone who wants to do it, do so! Then there is no murder to worry about and nothing to waste our time investigating.

You guys are geniuses.


That is still murder. Illegals are only exploited by others creating an underclass due to the fact that they lack the same legal status as everyone else. As long as that is the case, you will always have people smuggle others into the US, and you will always have people willing to work under the table and undercut citizens.

Unless everyone in the country is on equal legal footing, a group of people will always be exploited. Do away with the concept of illegal residents, and you do away with what creates that underclass.

Why did no one think of that before. Let's make stealing inheritance legal, then no one will murder people for their inheritance money!

As long as there is a desire to be met, human trafficking will meet that desire.
edit on 29-6-2019 by OccamsRazor04 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 29 2019 @ 06:49 AM
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originally posted by: Aazadan

We shouldn't be running concentration camps at all, but the Republicans did agree to a 90 day limit on a childs time there, rather than the current indefinite detention, where kids are spending months to years in the camps (and the indefinite stay has been the main point of contention). And that is a very big shift in policy assuming it gets adhered to.


A policy put in place by the Obama administration. Where were your threads, and posts claiming that the Obama administration was running "concentration camps"?...

BTW, as to "children being separated from their parents... It was in 2015 after a court ruled that the Obama administration was holding illegal minors in their "cages" for too long, the court did rule that children could be separated from their parents...


...
In 2015, Flores moved to enforce the Settlement, arguing that it applied to all minors in the custody of immigration authorities. The district court agreed, granted the motion to enforce, and rejected the government’s alternative motion to modify the Settlement. The court ordered the government to: (1) make “prompt and continuous efforts toward family reunification,” (2) release class members without unnecessary delay, (3) detain class members in appropriate facilities, (4) release an accompanying parent when releasing a child unless the parent is subject to mandatory detention or poses a safety risk or a significant flight risk, (5) monitor compliance with detention conditions, and (6) provide class counsel with monthly statistical information. The government appealed, challenging the district court’s holding that the Settlement applied to all minors in immigration custody, its order to release parents, and its denial of the motion to modify.Although the issues underlying this appeal touch on matters of national importance, our task is straightforward—we must interpret the Settlement. Applying familiar principles of contract interpretation, we conclude that the Settlement unambiguously applies both to accompanied and unaccompanied minors, but does not create affirmative release rights for parents. We therefore affirm the district court in part, reverse in part, and remand.
...

cdn.ca9.uscourts.gov...

However, the agency that was going to take care of those children, the INS, no longer exists, hence ICE argued in court that the language was so vague in the settlement that it left ICE as the main custodian of illegal children, but ICE does not receive sufficient funding to attend to all the needs of illegal children, and that it should be the ORR whom would provide all those needs for illegal children.


...
The Obama administration is detaining an estimated 1,700 parents and children at three detention facilities, two in Texas and one in Pennsylvania.

In her 25-page ruling, Gee blasted federal officials, saying that children had been held in substandard conditions at the two Texas detention centers. She found "widespread and deplorable conditions in the holding cells of Border Patrol stations." In addition, she wrote that federal officials "failed to meet even the minimal standard" of "safe and sanitary" conditions at temporary holding cells.

"It is astonishing that defendants have enacted a policy requiring such expensive infrastructure without more evidence to show that it would be compliant with an agreement that has been in effect for nearly 20 years," Gee wrote.

...

www.latimes.com...

The Trump administration was left off with the mess the Obama administration started, and with the left, including democrats/liberals in power, demanding for the ban, or defunding of ICE, the DHS, etc, it only made it worse.




edit on 29-6-2019 by ElectricUniverse because: add comment.



posted on Jun, 29 2019 @ 08:56 AM
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originally posted by: ElectricUniverse
A policy put in place by the Obama administration. Where were your threads, and posts claiming that the Obama administration was running "concentration camps"?...


Obama was not keeping people in camps indefinitely as Trump is doing, and as this new bill is supposedly going to end. Indefinite detention is considerably different.



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