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If faith was blind belief, why would it be of such importance?

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posted on Jun, 22 2019 @ 04:45 PM
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originally posted by: Deetermined
a reply to: Woodcarver


If you are talking about probability, then yes. It is highly unlikely that a god exists. I get to that position by examining all of the evidence that gods exist.


There's evidence in nature itself. How did soil, trees, plants, and flowers originate? Where did their original seeds come from and how did they know that living organisms in soil, mixed with water would allow them to grow and reproduce into their own separate forms?
when i look into nature i see organisms that reproduce themselves. Those organisms are made of self reproducing molecules, rna/dna, those molecules are formed through natural chemical reactions.

All i see are natural chemical reactions. That is demonstrable, and reproduceable.
edit on 22-6-2019 by Woodcarver because: (no reason given)




posted on Jun, 22 2019 @ 04:52 PM
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originally posted by: OccamsRazor04

originally posted by: Mach2

So, it's your position that there could be a teapot orbiting Jupiter, without life evolving on earth?

If life was created on Earth then there could be a teapot orbiting Jupiter.

I have zero problem with you thinking it is more likely life evolved through some unknown as of yet mechanism that will be eventually found. I disagree with you, but I completely respect your opinion. I can only go on what we know, and what we know currently has no answer for that.

Let's say 5 years from now an answer is found. Does that prohibit a Creator from creating a universe with the exact set of rules to facilitate His creation?


It would absolutely not prohibit the possibility that god created the universe. I would assume ppl of faith would attribute any scientific explainations to being the mechanism which god used. You would actually be able to put me in that catagory.

You see I don't really have a problem with faith. The fact is I don't know, and I'm not afraid to admit it.

I do have reservations about religion, and the moral judgements that usually come with them.

I also don't subscribe to the bible being the inerrant word of god, or the young earth nonsense.

I believe faith is something personal to every individual, and it is between that individual, and their own percieved construct of a "creator".



posted on Jun, 22 2019 @ 04:58 PM
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originally posted by: Woodcarver

originally posted by: OccamsRazor04

originally posted by: Woodcarver

originally posted by: OccamsRazor04

originally posted by: Woodcarver
If you are talking about probability, then yes. It is highly unlikely that a god exists.

Give me the numbers. Probability is measurable. If you can't give me numbers you are talking belief, akin to faith, not probability.


In order for me to present the numbers, you’ll need to present your evidence. Then we will calculate it’s validity based on it’s merit.

Until you present evidence for the existence of a god, that number will be zero.

The same as if i claim there is a magical dragon in my garage. Without evidence, that claim is unlikely. Right?

I don't need to present anything. YOU are the one talking probability. That requires numbers. If you have none then you are making a false claim, instead say you have faith there is no God.


You are going around in circles. If you don’t present evidence, then how can i judge how likely your extraordinary claims are? If you are going on faith, then the numbers are zero

You aren't. You are supposed to explain how you reached your conclusions and the numbers involved in the math that led you to your probabilities. My claims have zero bearing on the math involved in YOUR probabilities which you have already conducted and concluded according to you.



posted on Jun, 22 2019 @ 04:59 PM
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a reply to: Woodcarver


when i look into nature i see organisms that reproduce themselves. Those organisms are made of self reproducing molecules, rna/dna, those molecules are formed through natural chemical reactions.


Where and how did the chemicals originate to form these molecules?



posted on Jun, 22 2019 @ 04:59 PM
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a reply to: Woodcarver

Show me the demonstrable and reproducible origin of life. Life from non-life.



posted on Jun, 22 2019 @ 05:01 PM
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a reply to: Mach2



No qualms from me on that.



posted on Jun, 22 2019 @ 05:15 PM
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a reply to: Out6of9Balance

Faith is the action of utmost trust.

Same as when you were just a little child and had complete faith in your mother or father. You just knew they would take care of you. And, you didn't question provision.

If i have not been exposed to the Bible, or any had any person tell me about how God operates and Biblical history I will know that he loves me, that he created me and I put my "blind" faith in him. And, God knows my heart and I am his for always.

I really do think it is that simple.



posted on Jun, 22 2019 @ 05:25 PM
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originally posted by: hiddeninsite
a reply to: Out6of9Balance

Faith is the action of utmost trust.

Same as when you were just a little child and had complete faith in your mother or father. You just knew they would take care of you. And, you didn't question provision.

If i have not been exposed to the Bible, or any had any person tell me about how God operates and Biblical history I will know that he loves me, that he created me and I put my "blind" faith in him. And, God knows my heart and I am his for always.

I really do think it is that simple.


What if you were born to Hindu, Islamic, or Taoist parents?
Do you believe that you would have rejected the tenets of that faith, for your god that you have now?
(Hypothetical, of course).
edit on 22-6-2019 by Nothin because: changed 'indoctrination', to 'tenets'.



posted on Jun, 22 2019 @ 08:31 PM
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There are people who awaken and integrate information from soul and body with consciousness and increase awareness regardless if they are religious or not. Going outside Plato:s cave.

The more I hear from the other side of the veil the more I see how insane/illogical the Dualistic thinking of the Abrahamic religions are. The more awareness/wisdom the less ability to have to opposite ideas to be true at the same time and easier to take apart the idea in it's elements.

ESP Synchronicity and Energetic body states, nocebo and placebo effect is real. Quantum phenomena that can be measured. Laying of hands can be done regardless of name of Idol.

Faith in ideology without critical thinking makes a consciousness blind.



posted on Jun, 22 2019 @ 09:53 PM
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originally posted by: OccamsRazor04
a reply to: Woodcarver

Show me the demonstrable and reproducible origin of life. Life from non-life.


Self reproducing molecules have been known about for decades now. www.sciencealert.com...


Also, it is pretty common knowledge that all life is made of non organic material. You are made from the same stuff on the periodic table. You are made of chemicals.
edit on 22-6-2019 by Woodcarver because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 22 2019 @ 10:10 PM
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a reply to: Woodcarver

LOL! That's a real stretch there, Woodcarver! Do you even understand what you just read?


To be fair, these were highly controlled laboratory conditions. It's a leap to go from tweaking proteins to generating life.

But the principle stands - short peptide sequences shaped like amyloids have what it takes to speed up the generation of similar amino acid sequences.

As with most things in biology, the origins of living chemistry are unlikely to be simple. Metabolic processes, RNA generation, and amyloid replication all could have been competing, clashing, and blending to form the first life in a primitive biochemical tango.

"We will never be able to prove which is true – to do so, we would have to turn back the last 4 to 4.5 billion years of evolution," says Riek.

"However, we suspect that it was not one, but multiple molecular processes with various predecessor molecules that were involved in the creation of life."


In fact, the research I've seen shows that humans and animals also share some of the same LIVING ORGANISMS that are found in soil life, meaning that science is closer to proving that we really were created from the dust of the earth, just like the Bible told us we were.



posted on Jun, 22 2019 @ 10:18 PM
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originally posted by: Nothin

originally posted by: new_here

originally posted by: Nothin

originally posted by: new_here

originally posted by: Woodcarver

originally posted by: new_here
a reply to: Mach2




While i realize "faith" and religion are not the same thing, they are inseparable.


To you, perhaps. To many others as well. And horrid things have been done in the name of religion, yes.
But faith in God is a stand-alone concept. No 'religion' required. You could grow up on an island away from civilization and still commune with the Higher Power, without anyone saying a word about It. Religion is man's bastardization of faith, as a means of controlling the masses. Jesus didn't come to start Christianity. At all.
You are still relying on faith that you are not just talking to yourself. And as soon as someone else shows up, they will disagree on some point of your claim.


If I am just talking to myself... who is this wise Self who advises me? How do YOU know that what you call your Conscience is not the Holy Spirit. Does the name really matter that much, if the result is the same? Why reject the concept of a Higher Consciousness in the universe so vehemently? Is it fear? I'm asking seriously, not combatively.


Hola Nuevo Aqui!
Long time no see! Hope you are well.

How do you know that the holy spirit that you are communing with, is not just another aspect of your complex mind?
Or perhaps it is the hive-mind consciousness of the hundreds of trillions of gut bacteria, whom are directly connected to your brain via the vagas-nerve?

Don't nobody know, me thinks.

Don't nobody know nothin.


Hey Sweet Nuthins (LoL)
These are great questions. I don't know exactly the nature of God, only a knowing sense of a Loving, Benevolent voice (not literally audible, but like the zap of a message appearing in my Inbox/Mind.) It is similar to the inner dialogue we all have, but.. different. Like flashes of insight/understanding when my mind is quiet and zoned into drawing or doing yoga or something. I've pondered what we refer to as the Collective Unconscious being an aspect of God, or that concept of each of us being a tendril of the Spirit of God experiencing existence in a "Hue Man" meatsuit, as neurons to one brain.

I only know that when I am 'plugged in' I know that I am. In those moments I am a better person, and happy or at least peaceful.



You have described your feeling of 'connectedness', rather well, me thinks.
Are you open to considering that many may have similar experiences, and then attribute them to something other than god, or the holy-spirit?
Or perhaps attribute them to a different god?

Personally do experience those types of seemingly ego-destroying connectedness, but don't ascribe them to any particular 'thing' that is outside of that experience.
Are they the same? Who knows, as these are sorta intangible, and so difficult to put into words.
From many explanations: they seem similar.
But perhaps that's as close as we can get to comparing them.

Are they similar to what other folks experience? Hindus? Jews? Buddhists? Christians? Dummies like me?


Yes, nuthin, I do feel that people do/have experienced this connectedness now and thru the ages, and name the Source differently. "God" is just a word we came up with to name the Source we connect to. In other cultures & languages, the name of Source varies, and the finite glimpse of the Divine varies, but there IT is. Omnipresent. Like an omniscient broadcast, ever-ready for us to plug in to. To learn, to understand, to find solace.



posted on Jun, 22 2019 @ 10:21 PM
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originally posted by: Deetermined
a reply to: Woodcarver

LOL! That's a real stretch there, Woodcarver! Do you even understand what you just read?


To be fair, these were highly controlled laboratory conditions. It's a leap to go from tweaking proteins to generating life.

But the principle stands - short peptide sequences shaped like amyloids have what it takes to speed up the generation of similar amino acid sequences.

As with most things in biology, the origins of living chemistry are unlikely to be simple. Metabolic processes, RNA generation, and amyloid replication all could have been competing, clashing, and blending to form the first life in a primitive biochemical tango.

"We will never be able to prove which is true – to do so, we would have to turn back the last 4 to 4.5 billion years of evolution," says Riek.

"However, we suspect that it was not one, but multiple molecular processes with various predecessor molecules that were involved in the creation of life."


In fact, the research I've seen shows that humans and animals also share some of the same LIVING ORGANISMS that are found in soil life, meaning that science is closer to proving that we really were created from the dust of the earth, just like the Bible told us we were.


And the Earth is made from star dust, but the Bible told us God created the Earth before he created the stars.



posted on Jun, 22 2019 @ 10:27 PM
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a reply to: Mach2


You get a gold star on your position paper!



posted on Jun, 22 2019 @ 10:46 PM
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originally posted by: new_here

originally posted by: Nothin

originally posted by: new_here

originally posted by: Nothin

originally posted by: new_here

originally posted by: Woodcarver

originally posted by: new_here
a reply to: Mach2




While i realize "faith" and religion are not the same thing, they are inseparable.


To you, perhaps. To many others as well. And horrid things have been done in the name of religion, yes.
But faith in God is a stand-alone concept. No 'religion' required. You could grow up on an island away from civilization and still commune with the Higher Power, without anyone saying a word about It. Religion is man's bastardization of faith, as a means of controlling the masses. Jesus didn't come to start Christianity. At all.
You are still relying on faith that you are not just talking to yourself. And as soon as someone else shows up, they will disagree on some point of your claim.


If I am just talking to myself... who is this wise Self who advises me? How do YOU know that what you call your Conscience is not the Holy Spirit. Does the name really matter that much, if the result is the same? Why reject the concept of a Higher Consciousness in the universe so vehemently? Is it fear? I'm asking seriously, not combatively.


Hola Nuevo Aqui!
Long time no see! Hope you are well.

How do you know that the holy spirit that you are communing with, is not just another aspect of your complex mind?
Or perhaps it is the hive-mind consciousness of the hundreds of trillions of gut bacteria, whom are directly connected to your brain via the vagas-nerve?

Don't nobody know, me thinks.

Don't nobody know nothin.


Hey Sweet Nuthins (LoL)
These are great questions. I don't know exactly the nature of God, only a knowing sense of a Loving, Benevolent voice (not literally audible, but like the zap of a message appearing in my Inbox/Mind.) It is similar to the inner dialogue we all have, but.. different. Like flashes of insight/understanding when my mind is quiet and zoned into drawing or doing yoga or something. I've pondered what we refer to as the Collective Unconscious being an aspect of God, or that concept of each of us being a tendril of the Spirit of God experiencing existence in a "Hue Man" meatsuit, as neurons to one brain.

I only know that when I am 'plugged in' I know that I am. In those moments I am a better person, and happy or at least peaceful.



You have described your feeling of 'connectedness', rather well, me thinks.
Are you open to considering that many may have similar experiences, and then attribute them to something other than god, or the holy-spirit?
Or perhaps attribute them to a different god?

Personally do experience those types of seemingly ego-destroying connectedness, but don't ascribe them to any particular 'thing' that is outside of that experience.
Are they the same? Who knows, as these are sorta intangible, and so difficult to put into words.
From many explanations: they seem similar.
But perhaps that's as close as we can get to comparing them.

Are they similar to what other folks experience? Hindus? Jews? Buddhists? Christians? Dummies like me?


Yes, nuthin, I do feel that people do/have experienced this connectedness now and thru the ages, and name the Source differently. "God" is just a word we came up with to name the Source we connect to. In other cultures & languages, the name of Source varies, and the finite glimpse of the Divine varies, but there IT is. Omnipresent. Like an omniscient broadcast, ever-ready for us to plug in to. To learn, to understand, to find solace.


Well you seem to have easily put that into words, much better than myself thought it could be done.
It fits my idea, and am totally relating, and it is nice that you grasped my idea, and extended it so well.

It verily resonates with me as well, that there is some kind of accessible 'vibe', that we can all connect-to, albeit in sometimes wildly different ways.

As hard as it is to describe from a personal, experiential point-of-view: perhaps we can point to some other examples, and see the similitude?
But understand that an example for one, may not be the best example for another.
But maybe we can touch on one.

Try this on for size: (you'll probably find an example much better than mine, LoL)
'Observe' something in the essence of the performance of this song: not the lyrics, nor the imagery, nor the artist, nor the particular notes and chords. Ignore the loud shirt, and the sounds of children playing in the background.
Maybe 'spiritual', maybe not.
Deeper.
Just seems to me that there is something so 'connected' about this:




posted on Jun, 23 2019 @ 12:08 AM
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originally posted by: Deetermined
a reply to: Woodcarver

LOL! That's a real stretch there, Woodcarver! Do you even understand what you just read?


To be fair, these were highly controlled laboratory conditions. It's a leap to go from tweaking proteins to generating life.

But the principle stands - short peptide sequences shaped like amyloids have what it takes to speed up the generation of similar amino acid sequences.

As with most things in biology, the origins of living chemistry are unlikely to be simple. Metabolic processes, RNA generation, and amyloid replication all could have been competing, clashing, and blending to form the first life in a primitive biochemical tango.

"We will never be able to prove which is true – to do so, we would have to turn back the last 4 to 4.5 billion years of evolution," says Riek.

"However, we suspect that it was not one, but multiple molecular processes with various predecessor molecules that were involved in the creation of life."


In fact, the research I've seen shows that humans and animals also share some of the same LIVING ORGANISMS that are found in soil life, meaning that science is closer to proving that we really were created from the dust of the earth, just like the Bible told us we were.
Lol. You act like that is not amazing? Of course we are made from the same stuff as the earth. That is also not new information. It’s so obvious, middle eastern goat herders wrote about it in their fantasy sci-fi.

And i think you mean that we humans, who are also animals, share DNA with every other living thing on the planet, including grass and snails. Which proves beyond any doubt that life here evolved from the same process.
edit on 23-6-2019 by Woodcarver because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 23 2019 @ 12:13 AM
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originally posted by: Woodcarver


You are going around in circles. If you don’t present evidence, then how can i judge how likely your extraordinary claims are? If you are going on faith, then the numbers are zero


Nothing can be seen from your perspective.
edit on 23-6-2019 by Out6of9Balance because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 23 2019 @ 12:14 AM
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a reply to: Woodcarver

What spirit of life made us from the earth?



posted on Jun, 23 2019 @ 12:26 AM
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a reply to: Nothin



Just seems to me that there is something so 'connected' about this:


It is so effortlessly pristine & rhythmic. He's able to do this b/c he Believes he can do this. When you're connected to Source, doubt can't pop in and sabotage you. It is the same for me when I draw. I know that I can draw anything, if I want to badly enough. It has always been that way since I can remember. It is the one thing I do, where doubt does not enter. It cannot exist there, and I know this. It is a very freeing feeling, almost like the Divine takes over and I am just a conduit. I lose all sense of time, and go into autopilot while my mind receives the whatever insights are gifted me in that duration.

I believe this is what is meant by 'faith to move mountains.' If you believe it, you can make it happen. People often say they wish they could draw like me. I know that they can. They just don't believe they can. Doubt is like a stopgate in the brain. It short-circuits our abilities.

When I was little, I was determined to dive off the diving board. At the last second I doubted, and did a belly-flop instead. Because that's what doubt does-- it makes you belly-flop. Belief, on the other hand, while connected to the Divine, is magical.



posted on Jun, 23 2019 @ 07:01 AM
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a reply to: Woodcarver


And i think you mean that we humans, who are also animals, share DNA with every other living thing on the planet, including grass and snails. Which proves beyond any doubt that life here evolved from the same process.


Oh, so now you're going to brush off OccamsRazor04's claims that you can't create life from non-life by admitting that he's right even though you tried to counter him with some lame article about humans being made up of non-organic material? LOL! What science has proven, but only slowly admitting, is that the Bible was right and the organisms we share all come from soil life. Now if you'll only admit that science doesn't have a clue how they all came about originally, especially as it relates to humans having the special ability for critical thinking and expressing emotion.


edit on 23-6-2019 by Deetermined because: (no reason given)




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