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Teacher kicks student from class for saying there are only two genders

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posted on Jun, 20 2019 @ 08:00 AM
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originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: Gojira54

ETA: I'd also like to hear how you account for intersex people. You know people with atypical chromosome distributions?



46, XX INTERSEX

The person has the chromosomes of a woman, the ovaries of a woman, but external (outside) genitals that appear male. This most often is the result of a female fetus having been exposed to excess male hormones before birth. The labia ("lips" or folds of skin of the external female genitals) fuse, and the clitoris enlarges to appear like a penis. In most cases, this person has a normal uterus and fallopian tubes.

XY Intersex

The person has the chromosomes of a man, but the external genitals are incompletely formed, ambiguous, or clearly female. Internally, testes may be normal, malformed, or absent. This condition is also called 46, XY with undervirilization. It used to be called male pseudohermaphroditism. Formation of normal male external genitals depends on the appropriate balance between male and female hormones. Therefore, it requires the adequate production and function of male hormones.

XY intersex has many possible causes:

Problems with the testes: The testes normally produce male hormones. If the testes do not form properly, it will lead to undervirilization. There are a number of possible causes for this, including XY pure gonadal dysgenesis.

Problems with testosterone formation: Testosterone is formed through a series of steps. Each of these steps requires a different enzyme. Deficiencies in any of these enzymes can result in inadequate testosterone and produce a different syndrome of 46, XY intersex. Different types of congenital adrenal hyperplasia can fall in this category.

Problems with using testosterone: Some people have normal testes and make adequate amounts of testosterone, but still have 46, XY intersex due to conditions such as 5-alpha-reductase deficiency or androgen insensitivity syndrome (AIS).

People with 5-alpha-reductase deficiency lack the enzyme needed to convert testosterone to dihydrotestosterone (DHT). There are at least 5 different types of 5-alpha-reductase deficiency. Some of the babies have normal male genitalia, some have normal female genitalia, and many have something in between. Most change to external male genitalia around the time of puberty.

AIS is the most common cause of 46, XY intersex. It has also been called testicular feminization. Here, the hormones are all normal, but the receptors to male hormones don't function properly. There are over 150 different defects that have been identified so far, and each causes a different type of AIS.

TRUE GONADAL INTERSEX

The person must have both ovarian and testicular tissue. This may be in the same gonad (an ovotestis), or the person might have 1 ovary and 1 testis. The person may have XX chromosomes, XY chromosomes, or both. The external genitals may be ambiguous or may appear to be female or male. This condition used to be called true hermaphroditism. In most people with true gonadal intersex, the underlying cause is unknown, although in some animal studies it has been linked to exposure to common agricultural pesticides.

COMPLEX OR UNDETERMINED INTERSEX DISORDERS OF SEXUAL DEVELOPMENT

Many chromosome configurations other than simple 46, XX or 46, XY can result in disorders of sex development. These include 45, XO (only one X chromosome), and 47, XXY, 47, XXX - both cases have an extra sex chromosome, either an X or a Y. These disorders do not result in a condition where there is discrepancy between internal and external genitalia. However, there may be problems with sex hormone levels, overall sexual development, and altered numbers of sex chromosomes

edit on 20-6-2019 by WalkTheRingsOfSaturn because: (no reason given)

edit on 20-6-2019 by WalkTheRingsOfSaturn because: (no reason given)




posted on Jun, 20 2019 @ 08:04 AM
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originally posted by: continuousThunder
a reply to: WalkTheRingsOfSaturn

thanks for the extremely laboured analogy, good thing it's more useful than you know;



It wasnt labored at all, yours was..

Here is another... it is like calling 4 an odd number or 3 an even number or saying that 4 is neither odd or even.. and allowing no disagreement to any of these views.



posted on Jun, 20 2019 @ 08:06 AM
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originally posted by: daskakik
a reply to: ElectricUniverse

Where did anyone in the story force someone else to call them what they wanted?

I'm sure you hold your tongue quite a bit around here to stay within the T&Cs. Same deal in classrooms. Not sure what you are arguing about when you continue to participate in a place that puts limits on your speech as well.
The difference here is that classrooms are supposed to be a place of learning, not a re-education camp.



posted on Jun, 20 2019 @ 08:08 AM
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a reply to: WalkTheRingsOfSaturn

There is more than one intersex condition you know? Though just that example alone shoots the idea that chromosomes determine gender dead in its tracks. So that's cool I guess.

ETA: I'm really not sure what you are trying to tell me here. I'm not asking for examples of all the different types of intersex conditions. I'm trying to get an idea how people who say that there are only two genders that rely on chromosomes to determine them account for the fact that intersex people exist that show through their existence that chromosomes can't determine gender in all cases.
edit on 20-6-2019 by Krazysh0t because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 20 2019 @ 08:21 AM
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originally posted by: daskakik

originally posted by: WalkTheRingsOfSaturn
Identifying as something doesnt make you that thing.. that is the issue.

Not in this case. As Blaine said, the issue here is a kid being a turd and being thrown out of class for it.

If it was history and the topic was the american revolution and some kid started saying that a bunch of the founding fathers were slave owners to the point of disrupting the class, he would get the boot as well. He would be right but that doesn't give him the right to be messing up everyone else's class time.

The only real difference would be those arguing here would probably switch sides.
The point is really that schools are becoming re-education camps on behalf of Progressive ideology, and no one is allowed to question that. The student is actually a natural born leader and is refusing to accept a dangerous ideology and status quo.
edit on 20-6-2019 by ThirdEyeofHorus because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 20 2019 @ 08:21 AM
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originally posted by: Krazysh0t
Though just that example alone shoots the idea that chromosomes determine gender dead in its tracks. So that's cool I guess.



No it doesnt. The chromosomes make it Female, overexposure to Male hormones before birth interfere with the normal development of the external sex charachteristics.. that doesn't make it Male or a third distinct gender. Our environment is full of hormones and hormone mimicking pollutants so it isnt surprising to me at all that we are seeing an increase in these types of abnormalitues/hormonal disorders and the subsequent deformation of sex organs and other sexual charachteristics. The attempt to portray all of these things as natural variation when much of it is almost certainly better described as disorder/disease/deformity often caused by phytoestrogens etc. in our water, food etc. makes me wonder if part of the motivation behind this agenda involves avoiding having to.pay damages in a giant lawsuit.
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posted on Jun, 20 2019 @ 08:30 AM
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originally posted by: WalkTheRingsOfSaturn
No it doesnt. The chromosomes make it Female, overexposure to Male hormones before birth interfere with the normal development of the external sex charachteristics.. that doesn't make it Male or a third distinct gender.

Sure it does. If chromosomes say the person is female and the person presents male than they are male. Why is that hard to understand?

Oh yeah, in your list of intersex examples, I noticed you briefly mentioned stuff like Klinefelter's Syndrome. When someone has XXY chromosomes. There's also Triple X syndrome (XXX) and XYY syndrome. So that clearly doesn't align with the chromosomes == gender argument either.

It's like you understand the science, but only enough to keep yourself ignorant. You are JUST on the cusp of understanding that gender is a spectrum but just can't bring yourself to remove your ingrained biases to confirm this.
edit on 20-6-2019 by Krazysh0t because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 20 2019 @ 08:32 AM
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originally posted by: Nothin

Then why not just call them what they want, or any number of generic terms: like 'person' ?

If they have laws like that: what makes them different from any number of other stupid laws?

Do you go through red-lights at midnight, when you see that all is quiet and safe?
What if that was against your personal beliefs about wasting time and fuel?


Well some get offended by being called a generic term...and there are a lot of reasons, such as perhaps it violates your ethics, honor or some other personal or religious tenet?

Someone else posted that they feel it's dishonest and does a diservice to people of the real gender. You should not be forced into violating tenents you hold dear because someone else wants you to.

These stupid laws are being enforced and abused by some people because we all don't agree how gender is not being used, essentially.

So your proposed example is apples to oranges.. Personal beliefs don't trump laws. Laws however, are not always reasonable or fair and those need to be changed - but the process for doing that is clunky, time consuming and difficult to do when your leaders are often corrupt or you are turned into an outcast if you try to go against the system.

-----

Look, don't misunderstand me. If people want to identify as something other than what their biology presents, I don't care. They can be Purple People Eaters and more power to them.

And a language that isn't dead, does change. Words and meanings change. But this process usually happens naturally and over time.

If you try to force that change though, people are going to be slow to accept it or resist entirely. To punish them for that is quite unfair when it's a social change and laws are being used push it. That IS an agenda when that happens and bad examples of that can be found through our history (look at all the moral laws that turned anal sex into a criminal activity).

Society should change. Laws should change. Especially if it's driven by a new and more enlightened generation. But the generation that got them there should not be forgotten, dismissed or oppressed.



posted on Jun, 20 2019 @ 08:51 AM
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originally posted by: Krazysh0t

Sure it does. If chromosomes say the person is female and the person presents male than they are male. Why is that hard to understand?


It just isnt the case.. extenal sex organs dont determine gender. Surgically putting a penis on a female does not make them male... nor.does.a male developing female charachtistics due to a.hormone problem.or.hormone therapy make him.a female...
edit on 20-6-2019 by WalkTheRingsOfSaturn because: (no reason given)

edit on 20-6-2019 by WalkTheRingsOfSaturn because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 20 2019 @ 08:59 AM
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originally posted by: Krazysh0t

It's like you understand the science, but only enough to keep yourself ignorant. You are JUST on the cusp of understanding that gender is a spectrum but just can't bring yourself to remove your ingrained biases to confirm this.


Gender is not a spectrum. You can say males have more.or.less.feminine traits or.inclinations etc. caused by hormonal differences, disorders, deformities, social influence etc. and i.suppose u can imagine a spectrum of.sorts, but they are still males.. no amount of "identifying as" female.changes that.



posted on Jun, 20 2019 @ 09:13 AM
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a reply to: WalkTheRingsOfSaturn

Gender is not a spectrum.


See. You keep saying that, but you can't prove it. Your entire "proof" was a list of intersex conditions that prove you wrong in fact. Though if you insist otherwise, how about posting some quotes from noted biologists confirming that mainstream science believes as you do? How about posting some studies showing that gender is a binary? What do you think about the source posted earlier in the thread (by someone on your side of the argument I might add) that's conclusion said that gender is a spectrum? Here's the study reposted by the way. I mean I don't even have to prove my point (not that I've ever laid out my position in this thread even once), it was done for me by someone else who didn't understand the science he was quoting.



posted on Jun, 20 2019 @ 09:34 AM
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originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: WalkTheRingsOfSaturn

Gender is not a spectrum.


See. You keep saying that, but you can't prove it. Your entire "proof" was a list of intersex conditions that prove you wrong in fact. Though if you insist otherwise, how about posting some quotes from noted biologists confirming that mainstream science believes as you do? How about posting some studies showing that gender is a binary? What do you think about the source posted earlier in the thread (by someone on your side of the argument I might add) that's conclusion said that gender is a spectrum? Here's the study reposted by the way. I mean I don't even have to prove my point (not that I've ever laid out my position in this thread even once), it was done for me by someone else who didn't understand the science he was quoting.


Can you quote where it concludes that gender is a spectrum? It seems like more of a semantic game than a science based conclusion. Sure if you define gender in such a way that the behavioural variation among individuals constitutes different genders (or spots on a spectrum) there will be an infinite variety, but that is pretty silly.

Like I said before, its obvious that hormonal differences and disorders, social influence etc. can result in greater or diminished masculine/feminine traits (both physical and behaviorial) that doesnt mean a Male ever becomes a Female or vice versa.. and it also doesnt mean someone can be neither male or female (they are always one or another regardless of how they identify or what sex.organs they do or dont possess).

In any case it strikes me that people are arguing that regardless of where someone falls on this supposedly observable "spectrum" they should be free to identify as entirely masculine or entirely feminine as they see fit, and expect that everyone else play along (to the point that we treat the most masculine person on this "spectrum" as if they are actually the most feminine.. if that's how they "identify"). Is that your view?
edit on 20-6-2019 by WalkTheRingsOfSaturn because: (no reason given)

edit on 20-6-2019 by WalkTheRingsOfSaturn because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 20 2019 @ 09:43 AM
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I've recently learned that a great number of people are born intersex, that is neither male or female, but having a mix of characteristics of both. An estimated 1.7% of the population in born this way. That adds up to a lot of people when looking at the global population. So, in this sense, gender is not black and white, so to speak.



posted on Jun, 20 2019 @ 09:50 AM
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a reply to: WalkTheRingsOfSaturn

Does the conclusion work?

In conclusion: In this paper I advanced the physiology-based view that there are probably as many different gender variants as there are sexually reproducing individuals, and this not only in humans. Hence, there is no need to make subcategories in the gender variants with the purpose to install a moral hierarchy as they are all physiologically equal. This does not mean that all gender variants contribute equally well to the well-being of the whole population. I hope that growing awareness that the Ca2+- homeostasis system which is a key signalling system in all eukaryotes, acts as one of the corner stones on which gender is based, may contribute to a better acceptance of the variability of in gender forms as a natural, largely genetic (inborn) system.


Like I said before, its obvious that hormonal differences and disorders, social influence etc. can result in greater or diminished masculine/feminine traits (both physical and behaviorial) that doesnt mean a Male ever becomes a Female or vice versa.. and it also doesnt mean someone can be neither male or female (they are always one or another regardless of how they identify or what sex.organs they do or dont possess).

Question for you. If you combine the colors blue and yellow, do you call it blue with diminished blue traits, yellow with diminished yellow traits or do you call it green?


In any case it strikes me that people are arguing that regardless of where someone falls on this supposedly observable "spectrum" they should be free to identify as entirely masculine or entirely feminine as they see fit, and expect that everyone else play along (to the point that we treat the most masculine person on this "spectrum" as if they are actually the most feminine.. if that's how they "identify"). Is that your view?

I've specifically said over and over I am not giving my view out in this thread and want to see people defend and prove that gender is a binary. So I'm not answering that question.

Saying gender is a binary is a falsifiable statement. So therefore, science can test it. Thus if it is testable, it reasons science has tested it. So why is it that no one is bringing forth any science demonstrating how gender is a binary and the ONE piece of science that was posted about this goes against this narrative? Everyone keeps telling me how it is obvious and common sense, but I can't think of a single other science topic where a scientist will appeal to "obviousness" or "common sense" to support his conclusions. So PLEASE prove your point. Please stop trying to pry my position out of me and do your due diligence like I've been politely asking throughout the thread.
edit on 20-6-2019 by Krazysh0t because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 20 2019 @ 10:03 AM
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Right.. like I said that is just a semantic game. Basically saying there are as many gender variants (notice she cant just say genders) as there are people, because everyone is a little different... wow that is so profound (insert big huge eye roll).
edit on 20-6-2019 by WalkTheRingsOfSaturn because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 20 2019 @ 10:08 AM
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a reply to: WalkTheRingsOfSaturn

Semantics? You are honestly chalking up a science paper's terminology to semantics? I mean if you know ANYTHING about how science formulates and expresses its concepts then you should know that the verbiage used is ALWAYS as precise as possible. The last thing you can ever do is chalk up a science's wording to semantics and saying so suggests you aren't arguing in good faith.

Also, where is the evidence I keep asking for? Why do you keep ignoring that request?



posted on Jun, 20 2019 @ 11:07 AM
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originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: WalkTheRingsOfSaturn

Semantics? You are honestly chalking up a science paper's terminology to semantics? I mean if you know ANYTHING about how science formulates and expresses its concepts then you should know that the verbiage used is ALWAYS as precise as possible. The last thing you can ever do is chalk up a science's wording to semantics and saying so suggests you aren't arguing in good faith.

Also, where is the evidence I keep asking for? Why do you keep ignoring that request?


If you think someone "identifying as" female makes them female regardless of anything else (ie. it's entirely subjective and up to each individuals whim) why on earth do you care anything about chromosomes and hormone disorders and sex organs etc. and continually ask for scientific evidence as if any of it would matter? If you make gender into something entirely subjective by definition you've removed it from the reach of scientific investigation... so yes it's a semantic not scientific argument at that point (insert more big eye rolls).
edit on 20-6-2019 by WalkTheRingsOfSaturn because: (no reason given)

edit on 20-6-2019 by WalkTheRingsOfSaturn because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 20 2019 @ 12:10 PM
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originally posted by: ThirdEyeofHorus
The difference here is that classrooms are supposed to be a place of learning, not a re-education camp.



originally posted by: ThirdEyeofHorus
The point is really that schools are becoming re-education camps on behalf of Progressive ideology, and no one is allowed to question that. The student is actually a natural born leader and is refusing to accept a dangerous ideology and status quo.


Truth is that schools have always been about indoctrination.

They have also been places where disruptive activity gets people thrown out, whether their outbursts are Progressive or Conservative. That is the actual point here, that some people are conveniently overlooking, to prop up their biased arguments.



posted on Jun, 20 2019 @ 12:17 PM
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a reply to: WalkTheRingsOfSaturn

So I've specifically said over and over that I'm not laying my position on this matter out in the thread and I want you to prove how science is saying that there are only two genders. The reason I keep asking you for this evidence is because I'm trying a roundabout way to get you to see how your position is flawed through lack of evidence. Also, people tend to strawman my positions when I lay them out on ATS, and seeing how people such as yourself are constantly assuming my position throughout this thread, I see no reason to let you know what my position is.

I really don't know why I should deem to answer your questions in the first place since you keep explicitly ignoring and failing to address my call to provide evidence. However since you are at least being polite to me unlike everyone else gnashing their teeth at me, I'll give you a hint on where science stands on this and why you are still wrong about the semantics bit. Science views gender and biological sex as two separate concepts. One is something that is determined socially as a social construct and the other is determined biologically. It's actually a concept that is pointed out in the study you and I were just discussing too.

So now that I've given you a taste, please start researching your point and provide me with some science that shows how science is saying that gender can only be two things.
edit on 20-6-2019 by Krazysh0t because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 20 2019 @ 12:46 PM
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originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: WalkTheRingsOfSaturn

Where have I said I thought anything regarding anything? I've specifically said over and over that I'm not laying my position on this matter out in the thread and I want you to prove how science is saying that there are only two genders. The reason I keep asking you for this evidence is because I'm trying a roundabout way to get you to see how your position is flawed through lack of evidence.

I really don't know why I should deem to answer your questions in the first place since you keep explicitly ignoring and failing to address my call to provide evidence. However since you are at least being polite to me unlike everyone else gnashing their teeth at me, I'll give you a hint on where science stands on this and why you are still wrong about the semantics bit. Science views gender and biological sex as two separate concepts. One is something that is determined socially as a social construct and the other is determined biologically. It's actually a concept that is pointed out in the study you and I were just discussing too.

So now that I've given you a taste, please start researching your point and provide me with some science that shows how science is saying that gender can only be two things.


So when I tell you I'm a Male do you assume I'm referring to my sex or only my gender (as you've distinguished them)? Or must you be left to wonder because it would be presumptive of you to lean in either direction? I suppose you must consider the possibility that im referring only to my gender not my sex (and that biologically I'm as female as it's possible to be) correct? How would you suggest I describe myself if that is the case, to spare you from wondering what I mean?

The basis for thinking of biological sex in a binary way is obvious but apparently that isnt what you're interested in.. you want me to demonstrate that gender (ie. this thing that's apparently determined simply by however an individual identifies) is binary? If that's so I'm entirely mystified, like I said, at your attention to chromosomes, hormone disorders, sex organ variations etc. etc. as these would all seem relevant to the biological scientific side of things.
edit on 20-6-2019 by WalkTheRingsOfSaturn because: (no reason given)



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