It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.
Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.
Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.
I have made it clear many times (but admittedly not in my last comment) that I have no problem with a doctor and the mother deciding to abort if she actually finds herself in a situation where the pregnancy is threatening her life.
But that tiny risk does not excuse the wholesale legalization of murder.
Another point never discussed... Every single parent I've ever talked to would give their own lives in defense of or to save their children... In addition, every single mother I've ever talked to, if faced with a decision to kill her baby to save their own life, or to allow the baby to be born knowing it could or even would kill them, they would choose the latter. I can also say that if I were a woman, faced with such a decision, I would do the same.
I was making the point that it is an extreme, not the norm.
We're talking about women going to a doctor and the doctor ripping the baby from her womb, limb by limb.
It is definitely a problem, but these severe complications are skyrocketing mostly because the general health of the population is plummeting due to horrible nutritional and lifestyle decisions.
To that point, however, as my experience shows, many factors -- including arrogance and incompetence -- on the part of healthcare providers may preclude such a possibility. I should have been given that opportunity to terminate my tubal pregnancy, but wasn't. Other risk factors may not be known -- indeed, be impossible to know -- until it's too late.
Not to parse words, but "murder" specifically refers to deaths not justified under the law. So at this point, we are talking about man's law, not divine law. And man's law is faulty. If an officer of the law can be deemed justified in killing an unarmed innocent civilian because the officer believed his life might be in danger, then why would we not afford the same to women?
On the other hand, in terms of killing as opposed to murder, no one has a right to be born -- as evidence by spontaneous abortions (aka miscarriages).
No woman is obligated to have children. I would also add that it's quite hypocritical to demand a higher standard for a fertilized embryo in utero than for fertilized embryos in a fertility clinic, which can be destroyed without any consequence. By definition, would that not be murder also? If not, why not?
Many doctors suffer from god complex. They believe themselves to know everything, and their word is law. No one else knows more than them, and if they, the individual doctor can't fix something in particular, then he believes the problem can't be solved by anyone.
originally posted by: Boadicea
But let's say we took it out of the medical establishment's hands. What if the mother used the bounty of nature to terminate her own pregnancy? No doctors wanted or needed. Would you feel differently?
I would add that many are due to having babies later in life when risks increase for both the mother and child. So are we going to micromanage every woman's life to keep her in prime condition for fertility and child-bearing? Are we going to tell women they cannot have babies past a certain age and sterilize them to ensure this doesn't happen?
But I'm not one to trust everything the medical establishment tells us, and especially when it's so easy for them to hide the truth. Every single time we see a doctor, we are putting ourselves in their control. What about medical malpractice?
The bottom line is, we cannot trust all doctors to do the right thing. And there is no way for us to force doctors to do the right thing. So by forcing women to carry unwanted pregnancies to term, we would be forcing many women into vulnerable and risky situations at someone else's hands.
originally posted by: Ligyron
Doctors know more than you(oh, I know, you're a 50 year-practice doctor in John Hopkins) and if they say that life, human life as we understand it to be life starts at the cutoff time period women are legally allowed to abort,
then I'm going to go with their opinion on the matter instead of the opinion of a middle-aged man whose only concern in the grand scheme of life is to pump away for 2-5 minutes inside of a woman and then be entirely done with the process of creation.
You don't get pregnant. You don't have a creature leeching off you for 9 months, making you already more vulnerable than you are as a woman, and you're not the one risking your life giving birth to a kid. Therefore what you think about abortion is irrelevant because you are part of the problem, not a part of the solution.
And the problem is rich white men believing themselves to have the right to tell women what they can or can't do with their bodies. Go to fooking Tehran or Cairo for all I care, you lot will be happy there with the caveman mindeset you have.
originally posted by: Sookiechacha
I'm sure that early American settlers found constitutional justifiation for the murder and enslavement of native Americans and imported slaves, out of convenience.
But, abortion isn't murder, by definition,
Doctors are just people, and this is a phiisophical question, not one that can be answered better by someone who has a degree, just because they have a degree.
And as a father of 3 who takes my responsibilities seriously, I'm going to ass-u-me that you are some pimple faced teenaged punk - or maybe a 25 yr old millennial - still living at home with mama.
originally posted by: Ligyron
"Doctors are just people, and this is a phiisophical question, not one that can be answered better by someone who has a degree, just because they have a degree."
You mean doctors are just people, the people who make sure we don't die at the age of 30 like the average lifespan was for Ancient Egyptians? Doctors are the reason why we survive sickness and illness that would've been guaranteed death hundreds of years ago. What parent wouldn't like his son or daughter to become a doctor?
If degrees don't make someone more qualified to work in an area, to speak of something - they why are millions of students rushing to college to become massively indebted for years and years?
"And as a father of 3 who takes my responsibilities seriously, I'm going to ass-u-me that you are some pimple faced teenaged punk - or maybe a 25 yr old millennial - still living at home with mama."
No, I'm an old man, myself.
A couple years short of entering the third decade of my existence.
these days most guys are so broke and so useless that all it takes to get laid with chicks as hot as Victoria secret models is to have a job.
what guarantee do I have that you take your responsabilities seriously?
Can you provide to your kids the same lifestyle Prince William affords his kids? Can you pay off their college debt?
Can you buy them their own house like Chinese millionaires do? When I was trekking through China I met 18 year old kids who already had a few condos, a lexus and tens of thousands of disposable money to use a month.
Can you buy your own personal jet like Cristiano Ronaldo?
Are your genes worth a damn, meaning are you a world-class soccer player? NBA player?
Were you a twin brother of Sean O'pry?
Do you make 20 million dollars a year by trotting down a fashion catwalk wearing beach shorts?
What is it that gives you the right to produce new life?
Nothing. You just went ahead and had kids because you're selfish like the majority of men on this earth are, having kids for no reason other than just because their hormones told them to.
In any case, I could easily break you in half, even if you were a young man again, so your opinions are of no concern to me. In fact, unless you are Brad Pitt/Cristiano Ronaldo or Floyd Mayweather Jr, don't bother.
Hilarious how we live in a time when we could easily have a human species so beautiful as Brad Pitt and as physically impressive as Henry Cavill, if subpar men (overweight, obese, men shorter than 6 feet, bald men etc) weren't as incredibly selfish as they are, by having children and passing their inferior genes.
Now, if you got the idea that I don't like you, it's because you're right and I really, really don't like you at all.