Trying to resolve 9/11

a reply to: neutronflux

You have offered many posts here, over many years, and still have not been able to prove the OCT.

Pictures and propaganda talking points repeated endlessly prove nothing except their falsity and the desperation of those still promoting the grand lie.

a reply to: kwakakev

You

No. Thats true. There are quite a few floors involved, it is where it all started. It had to be this way so a misdirection can be done on the public in blaming the plane on the collapse rather than the controlled demolition.

The collapse for the towers’ is on video. And the initiation started at the areas of jet impacts. Unless you can provide video, audio, seismic evidence that proves otherwise.

originally posted by: Salander
a reply to: neutronflux

You have offered many posts here, over many years, and still have not been able to prove the OCT.

Pictures and propaganda talking points repeated endlessly prove nothing except their falsity and the desperation of those still promoting the grand lie.

Yeap, you will make people angry when you show their religion of conspiracy is based on falsehoods.

How about this for and example.

originally posted by: Salander
a reply to: neutronflux

And neither can you provide any facts or evidence validating the official conspiracy theory.

Even as you completely ignore facts and evidence that work against that official theory.

I have post after post directly referencing the actual video of the the collapse of WTC 1 and 2. Is that false.



Like the towers did not fall through the path of greatest resistance. Their vertical columns toppled in the wake of the collapsing floor system.

Seems like you are the one ignoring facts, being intellectually dishonest, and full of crap.

I am sorry the truth movement lies... Especially when they claim the towers fell through the path of greatest resistance

a reply to: kwakakev

You have mentioned this a few times, you are really missing something here. Any charges where the plane hit where no longer required, the plane done the demolition work there. As for all the rest of the charges throughout the building, how could the plane affect them?

The jets hit the towers. They took out vertical columns and floor slabs. The jet fuel caused wide spread fires. When each tower collapse initiated, it was on the floors of the jet impacts. There is no way CD systems would have survived the jet impacts to initiate a collapse on the floors of the jet impacts.

a reply to: kwakakev

Good lord the fantasy you weave....

Did you read the below ... is it true? Or not?

FAQs - NIST WTC 7 Investigation

www.nist.gov...

In addition, no blast sounds were heard on the audio tracks of video recordings during the collapse of WTC 7 or reported by witnesses. According to calculations by the investigation team, the smallest blast capable of failing the building's critical column would have resulted in a sound level of 130 decibels (dB) to 140 dB at a distance of at least half a mile, if unobstructed by surrounding buildings. This sound level is consistent with a gunshot blast, standing next to a jet plane engine, and more than 10 times louder than being in front of the speakers at a rock concert.

Let’s put this in prospect.

Any explosion that would have the energy to cut steel columns would have been heard at least a half mile away. The detonation would have been louder than any anything in the air or on the street. A helicopter at a hundred feet is only 100 decibels vs the 130 decibels from an explosion with the force to cut steel columns. I would say it’s very easy to hear a helicopter pass overhead in a city. But there is no audio of explosions from the WTC indicative of an explosion with the force to cut steel columns. No sound of a 130 detonation that would be very prominent, and would have echoed about the buildings.

When the collapse of each twin tower was initiated there was:
-no detonations with the force to create audio of 130 decibels indicative of an explosive with the force to cut steel columns.
-the collapse initiation was the columns buckling inward, no building material being ejected out.

WTC - WTC2 Initiation Close Up

m.youtube.com...

www.metabunk.org/the-pre-collapse-inward-bowing-of-wtc2.t4760/
www.metabunk.org...

-the collapse initiation produced no high speed ejection of demolition shrapnel.
-there is no evidence of a shockwave or over pressure event from a charges setting off.
-there is no resulting seismic evidence of a detonation with the force to cut steel columns.
-you cannot produce any evidence of a column being physically cut.
-no people were injured from demolitions shrapnel. No individuals had there ear drums burst from an over pressure event, nor seem to have any hearing loss associated with a detonation with the force to cut steel columns. I cannot even hear very well after a rock concert, and an explosion to cut steel columns would have been ten times louder. How far away can you hear an outside rock concert?
-no injuries from the WTC was from splintering of steel columns by explosives. No injuries from demolitions shrapnel.
-the searching of WTC debris produced personal effects like ID cards. Resulted in the recovery of of 19,000 human remains, with 6000 that could fit in a test tube. No evidence of demolitions shrapnel. No blasting cap fragments.
-metallurgy from the WTC shows the steel was not worked on by explosives. The steel was never exposed to temperatures at which thermite burns.
-the evidence of the WTC shows the floor connections to the vertical columns were sheared. No cut.

Failure of Welded Floor Truss Connections from the Exterior Wall during Collapse of the World Trade Center Towers

app.aws.org...

Analysis of the connections supporting the composite floor system of the WTC towers showed that at and below the im- pact floors, the greater majority (above 90%) of the floor truss connections were either bent downward or completely re- moved from the exterior column. This was probably related to the overloading of the floors below the impact region after col- lapse initiation

My post may seem like it's coming from out of left field, so for that I apologize. I'm coming into this thread cold because I wanted to find a recent 9/11 thread to ask ATS members of the legitimacy of this document.

See link/source here It states this is some revision from Dec 2008.

I'm not a 9/11 researcher and oddly enough, came across this document while researching Kazakhstan President Nazarbayev and his relationship to work Felix Sater may or may not have been working on in his contacts with Mukhtar Ablyazov and the Khrapunovs, who have been accused of laundering/embezzling estimated $4 to $6 Billion from BTA Bank in Kazakhstan.

This 9/11 Commission Report Revision Dec 2008 version is odd because it doesn't do DIck Cheney, George Bush Sr, or the Bush family any favors at all, and implicates Russian/Israeli Mafiya in the 9/11 WTC attack, and none other than Adnan Khashoggi, who I will get to in a minute.

Jamal Khashoggi, Adnan's nephew, was the journalist who has made more recent news since his uncle Adnan's death in June 2017. He fled into a self-imposed exile three months later in Sept 2017. He was last seen entering a Saudi consulate in Istanbul but never seen leaving. While one might think the CIA has no ulterior motives placing the blame for the "assassination" of Jamal Khashoggi, this 9/11 revised report provides detail from years prior which calls into question motives the CIA might have in coming to their determination. In all fairness, his uncle Adnan was up to his eyeballs for decades in arms deals with Lockheed Martin.

Washington Post

The CIA has concluded that Saudi Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman ordered the assassination of journalist Jamal Khashoggi in Istanbul last month, contradicting the Saudi government’s claims that he was not involved in the killing, according to people familiar with the matter.

The CIA’s assessment, in which officials have said they have high confidence, is the most definitive to date linking Mohammed to the operation and complicates the Trump administration’s efforts to preserve its relationship with a close ally. A team of 15 Saudi agents flew to Istanbul on government aircraft in October and killed Khashoggi inside the Saudi Consulate, where he had gone to pick up documents that he needed for his planned marriage to a Turkish woman.

This 9/11 report I have no verification of authenticity from states the following regarding the elder Khashoggi:
[p.10]

2. The group which probably planned and set-up the attack on the World Trade Center was most likely a mix of Russian/Israeli Mafiya, ex-KGB and Israeli secret service, with the assistance of David Kimche (Mossad agent), Meir Dagan (head of the Israeli Mossad), Adnan Khashoggi and Sheikh Kamal Adham (former head of Saudi Intelligence), Richard Armitage and Richard Secord. Kimche, Armitage and Secord are the only field intelligence operatives identified in the world press as having field management responsibility for Al Qaeda mercenaries. Khashoggi is documented to have coordinated similar types of false “terrorist” attacks in Russia, with the participation of CIA and Israeli agents working with Chechen Mafya (with its strong likages to the Yeltsin Family.)

3. The group that probably arranged for operational cover in the US, and intelligence support the operation required most likely consists of re-united participants in the Iran-Contra dealings of the 1980’s. This group has been working in concert in Central Asia, using Baku, Azerbaijan as a base of operations since the early 1990s. This group of former Iran-Contra
conspirators includes:
a) Adnan Khashoggi: whose Azerbaijan banks "played a big part in the formation of terrorist camps and in the
opening of laboratories for developing chemical and bacteriological weapons in Nagornyy Karabakh” was a major
mover of illegal gold; major investor and founder in Barrick; was a major investor in Oryx (financial backer of
Huffman Aviation- the flight school that provided training to eleven 9/11 hijackers); and business
partner with General William Lyon – founder of diploma mills which are linked to the access to the US for two
hijackers. Khashoggi also is linked to the funding of the “9/11 Truth Movement” in an attempt to monitor and
control civilian inquiries into the events surrounding 9/11.

b) Richard Secord: a former U.S. Air Force major general who had been helping to recruit and train the Azerbaijani
army as well as regional secret services in conjunction with David Kimche, and was reported to have assisted in
the recruitment of Al Qaeda mercenaries and Osama Bin Laden for deployment in Azerbaijan;

c) Richard Armitage: who managed illegal gold funds for George HW Bush during Iran-Contra period; who acted as a
consultant to Halliburton and Unocal at the time, and was President of the US-Azerbaijani Chamber of
Commerce. Armitage had demonstrated a history of visits to Pakistan and the rest of Central Asia, and was
reported to have assisted in the recruitment of Al Qaeda mercenaries and Osama Bin Laden for
deployment in Azerbaijan;

d) Farhad Azima, a US arms merchant with Iranian background, a member of the US-Azerbaijani Chamber of
Commerce, who assisted Richard Secord in recruiting, transporting and training mujahedin mercenaries. He was
owner of the Azerbaijan Airlines, and has a twenty year old relationship with the Iran-Contra syndicate. He is
significant co-investor with Wally Hilliard of Huffman Aviation in a small California electronics company
(Spatialight Inc).

e) Khalid bin Mahfouz, owner, with the bin Laden family and members of the Saudi royal family of the Saudi oil
companies Delta Oil and Nimir Oil. Both are partners with Unocal in Azerbaijan and partners in multiple Bush
family enterprises. He is a major investor along with Khashoggi in Barrick and TrizecHahn. (TrizecHahn was the
landlord to the corporate headquarters of Halliburton and Enron.)

f) Dick Cheney, as CEO of Halliburton, lobbyist for the Azerbaijan International Operating Company, on US-
Azerbaijani Chamber of Commerce; participant in Congressional hearings that let Iran-Contra participants off-
the-hook. Dick Cheney’s role in the attack on the WTC is most thoroughly treated in the book Crossing the
Rubicon, by Michael C. Ruppert, where Cheney is demonstrated to be fully accountable for the activities of
NORAD and FEMA on September 11. John Mann, in Rise of the Vulcans- The History of Bush’s War Cabinet,
describes Cheney as “one of the principal defenders of the Reagan administration’s conduct in Iran Contra.”

TBC...

g) David Kimche, Israeli Mossad agent who brought Israeli agents and mercenaries into Azerbaijan at the request
of Secord, and worked with Secord and the regional secret service organizations of Azerbaijan and
Kazakhstan. He was a participant in the October Surprise and Iran-Contra scandal, and consultant to Manuel
Noriega.

h) Porter Goss, former CIA agent and Congressman, now Director of the CIA. He met with Mahmoud Ahmad,
Director of the Pakistani Secret Service (ISI) shortly before and after 9/11. Mahmoud Ahmad was
responsible for providing $100,000 in funding to Mohammed Atta. Goss has not been identified with any
Azerbaijani activity, but has been identified with Iran-Contra activity.

i) George Bush Sr., who (according to several eyes witnesses) authorized the Iran-Contra and October Surprise
operations (although Congressional investigators concluded he was not involved), initiated the US covert
operations in Kazakhstan and Azerbaijan, authorized the creation of the illegal Durham/Brady Bonds which went
secretly to Russia, and authorized the assignment of $10 billion in un-mined gold reserves to Barrick. He later
sat on the Advisory Board of Directors for Barrick.

j) Robert Mueller, who as US Attorney headed the Iran-Contra and the BCCI investigations and trial found little
fault with Bush Sr., also was responsible for the FBI investigation of 9/11.

So my question is this before I delve further into all the data this report is providing as far as GOLD and Durham/Brady bonds and investigations into money laundering, IS THIS REPORT LEGIT?

Does anyone know where it came from? Who the authors are? Was it part of the original investigation and 9/11 report or is this 2008 Revision part of a follow-up investigation ONLY into the issues addressed within this revision?

Would love to hear thoughts before I tread into this rabbit hole.

Here are some links about the steel for you to go thru and explain how it fits the official narrative. Perhaps one should research the Pentagon explosion as well.

where did the steel go??

where did the steel go link 2



Ask yourself how would a CIA asset, whose families had long ties to the Bush family, said to be hiding in a cave somewhere, on dialysis, be able to co-ordinate the largest attack on US soil in generations?

originally posted by: CrazyFox
Here are some links about the steel for you to go thru and explain how it fits the official narrative. Perhaps one should research the Pentagon explosion as well.

where did the steel go??

where did the steel go link 2

Ask yourself how would a CIA asset, whose families had long ties to the Bush family, said to be hiding in a cave somewhere, on dialysis, be able to co-ordinate the largest attack on US soil in generations?

Why would anyone if you cannot take the time to create a logical argument, state a clearer theory, and care enough to list cited facts.

Well? here is some truth movement propaganda with no context. I don’t care enough about the material to cite actual facts. Got to go.

Whatever.

a reply to: neutronflux

A helicopter at a hundred feet is only 100 decibels vs the 130 decibels from an explosion with the force to cut steel columns. I would say it’s very easy to hear a helicopter pass overhead in a city. But there is no audio of explosions from the WTC indicative of an explosion with the force to cut steel columns. No sound of a 130 detonation that would be very prominent, and would have echoed about the buildings.

When the collapse of each twin tower was initiated there was: -no detonations with the force to create audio of 130 decibels indicative of an explosive with the force to cut steel columns.

Still chewing on that old 130dB gum. You just do not like the evidence presented otherwise do you? What might the dB on the following video?

Below or over 130bB indicated at range given?

a reply to: democracydemo

I don’t know. Please cite who conducted the test, and what calibrated sound equipment they used.

Treat the video you linked to as if it was from NIST. Not wishful truth movement propaganda.

originally posted by: neutronflux

Whatever.

Glad to see a response equal to that of Cartman from South Park!

What further garbage are you speaking of if you did not have "time" to review posted links?

be glad this is not the mud pit!

a reply to: neutronflux

I do get it. I so wish the official story was right, I really do. I am not prepared to sacrifice my cognition though to hold onto this dead weight.



How does a plane magically pass through one of the pentagon rings without touching it? Propaganda. Wake the hell up or just leave it to natural selection to sort out. Your call.

a reply to: CrazyFox

If you cannot take the time to state a hypothesis and list supporting evidence, why should I care. Especially with an increase of trolls/bots trying to use ATS to generate web traffic to other web sites.

a reply to: ucanthandlethetruth

What I have found so far, Israel's fingerprints are all over 9/11. Planning, motive, repercussions...

When it comes to the Russian angle, have not heard much. Did sound like the Russian state was aware of the attack coming and tried to warn America, but America already knew. I have not come across any solid leads of Russian state involvement in 9/11. As for some Russian individuals in on it, war is a multinational industry and it is reasonable to consider.

It is an interesting version of the The September 11 Commission Report you have. I know the official public released version did not even look at WTC7, this one does. I am not able to verify the source of the document, but looking through the contents it does cover many important things to consider with this issue.

a reply to: neutronflux

why should I care.

You would not of made it this far if you did not care. I know its a tough one to swallow. It is quite natural to feel all hope and reason is lost when coming to terms with it. Just hang on and keep breathing, it will get better again.

originally posted by: kwakakev
a reply to: neutronflux

I do get it. I so wish the official story was right, I really do. I am not prepared to sacrifice my cognition though to hold onto this dead weight.

I have never understood this one either. It seems like the reality of the deniers massively hinges on the official story being right. That if they started having enough of an open mind to seriously consider the conspiracy theories, their reality would come tumbling down.

I wonder if they also believe our government is a benevolent benefactor. Or that main stream really has our best interests at heart and not about making money / gaining control.

I don't really care if they believe the official story or not, but their wailing at the sky is very very interesting.

a reply to: kwakakev

do get it. I so wish the official story was right, I really do. I am not prepared to sacrifice my cognition though to hold onto this dead weight.

Funny from a person that uses truth movement lies and falsehoods that have been repeatedly debunked.

You

How does a plane magically pass through one of the pentagon rings without touching it? Propaganda. Wake the hell up or just leave it to natural selection to sort out. Your call.

Well, you have to first know the a actual damage trail of flight 77 through the pentagon at the 45 degree angle...

[Pentagon Rings and the Exit Hole]

www.911myths.com...

Bringing Closure to the 9/11 Pentagon Debate

www.foreignpolicyjournal.com...

Internal Column Damage: Figure 7 taken from The Pentagon Building Performance Report depicts internal column damage. At the top, red and blue squares depict missing and severely damaged columns. Green and yellow squares show columns with less damage. The width of the damage at the west wall (top) is about 100 feet, which is consistent with the impact of the fuselage, engines, and the heavy parts of the wings of a Boeing 757. As the fuselage moved into the building, it was shredded and scattered to the sides along its path, but a cone of decreasing width of material maintained enough focus to break through and make a hole in the C ring wall. The dark shaded area of the figure is where the building collapsed about 30 minutes after impact. The first floor area with damage but no collapse filled up with debris without the first floor ceiling collapsing. All these observations support the impact with the façade and passage of a large plane through the building primarily at the first floor level.

a reply to: kwakakev

Let’s see...

You cannot provide any evidence of WTC cut columns.

You have not provided any evidence of explosions with the force to cut steel columns. No seismic evidence. No audio indicative of explosions with the force to cut steel columns. No indication of a pressure wave that started collapse initiation when inward bowing and buckling are on video.

You don’t get there is no evidence of conventional explosives were used, so AE 9/11 Truth had to fabricate a mythology of fizzle no flash bombs to stay relevant

You keep using truth movement falsehoods.

You cannot cite any evidence the WTC steel was exposed to temperatures at which thermite burns.

You think thermite kept the WTC pile hot for three months? When the pile was never hot enough to support liquid steel. Liquid steel causes violent steam explosions when hit with water. When normal smoldering was the cause.

You keep referring to the Jones thermite study? Because you don’t actually cite sources or evidence? You just use random innuendo. So who knows what you are referring to? Jone’s study is fraudulent, unverified, and Jones never tested for AL2. Jones just assumed the presence of AL2.

You cannot point to one analysis that shows the WTC dust was burnt in an inert atmosphere to confirm it could support a thermite reaction.

No one could verify the presence of thermite in WTC dust as claimed by Jones.

There is no way CD systems could survive the jet impacts and fires to initiate collapse of the towers. The collapse initiation of WTC 1 and 2 was on the floors of the jet impacts.

The cores of WTC 1 and 2 fell at 40 percent the rate of free fall.

The vertical columns of WTC 1 and 2 fell last. The twin towers did not fall through the path of greatest resistance.

a reply to: kwakakev

Ok..

If you want to read random links, read this.


This is the document you need to read and debunk before your fantasy the WTC was brought down by planted pyrotechnics has any credibility...

A CRITICAL ANALYSIS OF THE COLLAPSE OF WTC TOWERS 1, 2 & 7 FROM AN EXPLOSIVES AND CONVENTIONAL DEMOLITION INDUSTRY VIEWPOINT
By Brent Blanchard
August 8, 2006
c-2006 www.implosionworld.com

www.implosionworld.com...