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NEWS: China Fires Back at U.S. Rights Criticisms

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posted on Mar, 3 2005 @ 04:22 PM
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It's the Propaganda Machine Syndrome. These Americans Can't Understand What They Are Hearing...What USA Is Bad...

No, it's not, it's downright evil! It should be wiped off the face of the planet with nuclear war.s.




posted on Mar, 3 2005 @ 04:24 PM
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Originally posted by 00PS
It's the Propaganda Machine Syndrome. These Americans Can't Understand What They Are Hearing...What USA Is Bad...


Oops take a look in the mirror, you seem to be reading fromt he same propaganda manual that Zcheng used to quote from. What part of the Chinese In-Human rights record am I not understanding? The millions killed in teh cultural revolution? The genocide in Tibet, the slave labor in factories, etc etc. What part of that am I not understanding?



posted on Mar, 3 2005 @ 04:24 PM
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I wouldnt go that far OOPS. You are living in China after all and that country is just as bad as the United States regardless of how well you have it.

Theres plenty of good Americans with good intentions and you shouldnt taint them all with the same brush. I just wish to bloody God they'd oust their President and take their country back from the Corporations.

FredT your obviously capable of recognising Chinas human rights abuses, can you clarify whether you accept the fact that the United States also abuses human rights?

[edit on 3/3/05 by subz]



posted on Mar, 3 2005 @ 04:39 PM
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Originally posted by FredT

Originally posted by 00PS
It's the Propaganda Machine Syndrome. These Americans Can't Understand What They Are Hearing...What USA Is Bad...


Oops take a look in the mirror, you seem to be reading fromt he same propaganda manual that Zcheng used to quote from. What part of the Chinese In-Human rights record am I not understanding? The millions killed in teh cultural revolution? The genocide in Tibet, the slave labor in factories, etc etc. What part of that am I not understanding?


Yeah, I don't need to look in the mirror. I'm providing a mirror for you guys. See how it sounds? It's awful. I hate hearing about China like this. Do you want to hear about America like this. I hate just hearing about it. What do you want to complain about? Just to complain...ok let's have a community cry momment...

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posted on Mar, 3 2005 @ 06:25 PM
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Lol, I read that report last night. I remember it last year too and I just find the whole thing funny. It is childish, but for some reason I kinda like it. Just the idea that a government goes to that length just to say "nana na-na-na I'm like rubber you're like glue.." It takes away the seriousness of international politics for a day and exposes the human ego behind it all.

Anyway, another news site quoted the report as saying the "American electrol process was dismissed as a 'contest of money' ".

Well, they got that one right.



posted on Mar, 3 2005 @ 08:00 PM
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Originally posted by kegs
Lol, I read that report last night. I remember it last year too and I just find the whole thing funny. It is childish, but for some reason I kinda like it.


Childish? Hardly, it is no different that the reports issued by Human Rights Watch, nor Amnesty International, or any other the other groups are they also worth of your laughter. Notice very few posters took the time to comment about Chinas abysmal atrocities, but instead chose the typical strawman of "look at America's record" The only think I have not seen is the typical "American Indian Genocide" Strawman



posted on Mar, 3 2005 @ 08:25 PM
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FredT, Seekerof

Sorry about the dated information, thanks for correcting me regarding the human rights commission. I knew it was a political move, but then again, name me one thing done in politics that isn't. It's impossible, it's politics, so any move made..get me? Anyway, I really don't believe any country is above an examination under the microscope, and all those links posted by members, while informative, are not the only side of the story.

It is a fact that nearly a million kids a YEAR go missing in America. Most of them end up as street workers..the lucky ones end up dead. The cunning ones end up as gutter rats, and gypsies. That's a tragedy, and I can predict the responses already.. China has more, China does this, China does that. That's wonderful, really, but what does it have to do with the fact that we are clearly in a lot of trouble as a country? We need to handle our business. That's for sure.

Nobody can argue with that. Some may think we are handling our business domestically, but I think the facts will prove you wrong. Some may think other countries are worse off, which is absolutely true, but no excuse for the horrors that go on here. There are nice places in America, and there are nice places in China. There are nice places in Venezuela for sure, but you can get tortured there. Oh well...it really is the same everywhere, the same problems, perhaps to different degrees.

I know I'm just echoing sentiments made by other posters, but I wanted to add my voice to the stack. I think it's reasonable to expect that our politicians worry about us more than foreign relations, and they're certainly not showing it. Then again, I didn't elect them, I don't rely on them to take care of me or my family, and I don't care what they do or say in so far as I'll deal no matter what. I feel for the millions of people who actually believe in the lies of the state (no matter which one). They're vulnerable, and being taken advantage of.

There are ALWAYS worse places, better places..what matters most is OUR place. (what should matter most to 'them' is 'their' place. Some people, like me, live in other people's places, and have little concern for the whims of their government. If I don't like it, or I feel threatened, I'll leave. Some people can't, or won't, and somebody should speak up for those poor dependant, long suffering fools who don't know how to tell when a politician is lying.

Hint: They're power junkies (power is far more physically addictive than any drug, scientifically speaking) and you know a junky is lying when their lips are moving...



posted on Mar, 3 2005 @ 08:36 PM
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oh yea one war and suddenly we are hypocritical for a report on massive oppression and abuses that have gone on for decades and on purpose and unpunished?



posted on Mar, 3 2005 @ 09:03 PM
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usa does not look at there own problems like iraq.so they have every right to speak up.so does russia they have good intentions also.



posted on Mar, 3 2005 @ 10:28 PM
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subz, what country are you from?...

There are many countries that are underreporting what is happening inside their borders. To make an example France....

There are many crimes that go unreported in France because it happens by the hands of immigrants....which France does not want to report....

Some months back i reported on some of the things that were happening to convicts in France, they kept releasing rapers and even murderers after they committed crimes several times, yet they were being released time and time again.... in France there are a lot of immigration from Muslim people, crimes done to muslim women are not always reported, although they do happen. Muslim women are similar in a way to Japanese women, they have a different opinion about honor than in other countries, and it is one of the reasons why quite a few crimes go unreported.

now....about China's prisoner population....of course they are going to have less people than in the US...they kill most of their prisoners....including for tax evation, drug crimes....and for being pro-democratic...



posted on Mar, 3 2005 @ 11:02 PM
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Ok, this debate consists a lot of China is evil because CNN told me so, to America is evil because BBC reported on Abu Ghraib. To truly appreciate many of the human rights issues, you must understand the history of many of these issues.

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Cultural Revolution
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The cultural revolution was the work of Mao and him alone, as a way to regain power. it has long passed, even the Chinese leadership now accredit Mao Zedong as a good leader "who made some mistakes". To blame the post-Deng Xiao Ping leadership on that is like blaming slavery on President Bush.

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Prisons
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The labour prisons you refer to do exist. A majority of them serve purposes not unlike the "chain-gangs" in the US. They are of course convicted "political dissidents" among them.

Chinese prisons are NOT clean, LOL, and most people in society prefer them to be nasty.

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Legal System
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China's legal system has a long way to go, but it cannot be dismissed as a kangaroo court anymore. It is true that political cases are dealt with in a dubius fashion but criminal cases are not.

The death penalty has always being in use in China. One of China's oldest phrases is "kill a man, pay your life. Contrary to popular opinion, China does not condone the executions of Children, they are BY LAW, not executed. Amnesty international is very strange on this issue, it seems to be having a bet each way. It acknowledges that China does not systematically execute Children but it says it wants China to stop its "mistaken age" death penalties. I suspect that it's real aim is to get China to stop using the death penalty altogether.

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Tibet
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Tibet was annexed by the Communist party after the civil war. Genocide is a word that has become too widely used to offer it's original meaning. Sure, Tibetans were killed by Chinese army, many of them during the uprising that was organised by the CIA. But Genocide means a deliberate attempt to exterminate a race, this was NEVER EVER practiced by China.

In fact, China has done what it always has done, the Tibetans who fought for independence were caught, killed, jailed, or ran to India. It wasn't a systematic killing of the people just for fun.

Of course, could anyone offer me the difference between a "freedom fighter" and a "terrorist"? Tibet was an example of a state exercising its control over another, it was certainly not a practice in "genocide".

In terms of Tibet as a nation, it is a very complicated topic which is too easily dismissed by people on both sides of the fence. The are 2 contentious issues over whether or not Tibet is an independent nation.

The first is the Yuan dynasty, which Kublai Khan conquered China and Tibet, and alot of other places. China claims the Yuan dynasty as a dynasty not dissimilar to the Manchu Qing, which will then mean that the dynasty is Chinese (just not Han). This would allow Chinese claims to Tibet.

The Tibetans claim that the Yuan was like a foreign power (Mongolian), and if China could claim it, then India could claim Australia (work it out logically, since Briton ruled over both).

The truth is of course more complicated. China is a melting pot of people over 50 ethnic minorities including Mongolians, and cultures ranging from Middle-Eastern to Korean. So it is really nothing like imposing British rule over India. However, Yuan was certainly not "ethinically Han" and was eventually pushed out by the Han's Ming dynasty. (which was the time when China started to go bad militarily but the Ming still had arguably the best fleet of it's time).

The trick to the arguement of course is whether or not you define China as Han (over 90% of Chinese are Han). China definetely started off as Han but over it's evolution has become more and more less "Han". You can not say that China means Han nowdays, but at the time of Kublai, the Chinese identity was still very much Han.

The 2nd topic is the marriage of a princess from China to Tibet (during the Tang, i think before the Yuan). I must confess i'm not too familiar with this issue, you should read up on that yourself but YOU WILL NOT FIND A UNBIASED SOURCE on this. It is a very charged topic.

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Falungong
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Seekerof, that website you provided before was from a Falungong website and had drawings. That is not evidence.

Falungong has now lost credibility as a religious organisation, it's a pseudo-political organisation funded and used by anti-chinese forces. This is not to say that Falungong is evil or a cult, just that people should really read what Falungong is all about before using that as a reason to comment on China's human rights.

Falungong was founded by Li Hongzhi and he claimed to be the re-incarnation of the buddha (a Jesus, Messiah character). It is not "ancient" or "traditional", it was started in 1992 by one man. It has a very aggressive (by that i mean protests, not violence) strategy more akin to evangelicals then traditional Chinese Buddism. It's true believers believe in Falungong and Li Hongzhi before the state or anything else.

The real reason why it was cracked down in China is because of that last sentence. If leaders of a state believe that a group might infringe on it's rule, then it will move the change that. This is no different to tussles between the monarchy and the Vatican in middle ages Europe.

People should go and see some of the protests they hold, it is very surreal. The former Chinese president Jiang started the ban because of the huge march organised. They were various reports describing how the huge group sat as one, meditated as one, rose as one, marched off as one. That display of total organisation, not they protests or religious beliefs are what triggered the ban.

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Free Speech
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It is true, China cracks down very hard on political dissension. However, this is exaggerated in the media like all things tend to be. As China's Communist leadership have firmed, it has become more "complacent" about dissent. As long as you don't organise or ferment unrest, nothing will happen to you. If you publish columns, you will be harrassed but you will NOT be sent to prison for just ranting on the net. The line is if you start to ORGANISE something.

The issue of free speech is a historical issue in China, and yes, it was a problem long before America declared independence or sailed from Briton. For example, the first Emperor of China persecuted scholars and burned books in an unimaginable way (this was latter learnt by Mao Zedong towards the end of his life). During the Qing Dynasty, Emperors persecuted scholars who wrote the word "ming" (the name of the previous Han dynasty, the Qing were Manchu) in they poems for often innocent purporses.

Have in mind though, America has one of the most extreme freedom of speech rules across the world. America is a nation founded on entreprenier ship, independence and the American dream. This has very little in common with China which has a strong community based society, mostly inward looking. In past generations (even currently), Chinese would never ever tell it's Elders that he or she is wrong, even if they are.

The fact that there is a "Great Wall of China" tells you about the culture. China never had Cavalries like the Mongolians, Legions like the Romans, Empires like the British, or Profound influence like the USA.

But through all the turmoils of history, China has survived.

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Summary & Rant
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The above are just my opinion, plz don't flame me


The reason why i didn't offer any links to any of the above issues are because of the lack of good links. The links are either extremely anti-China or extremely pro-China, where the truth like it always does, lies in between.

I believe that they is too much people on this forum who plonk down a link which supports them and says thats it, i'm right. That is BS, history is open to interpretation, even Neo-nazis can find sources which support them. A majority of us have an opinion, shares it, then googles for supporting sources, of course you will find them.



posted on Mar, 4 2005 @ 02:16 AM
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Muaddib, im a British Australian.

FredT your strawman argument is lame. So nobody can criticise the USA's human rights track record because its been done a million times over? Great logic there, how many years has the USA trotted out their China report? Yet another hypocrasy.

For the second time I'll state that im fully aware that the Chinese commit massive human rights abuses. My point is that the USA should try and fix their own human rights abuses before highlighting other countries.

How hard is that to understand? Get all defensive and dismissive as you like Americans, your country commits massive humanrights abuses: FACT



posted on Mar, 5 2005 @ 03:35 AM
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Originally posted by Muaddib
subz, what country are you from?...

There are many countries that are underreporting what is happening inside their borders. To make an example France....

There are many crimes that go unreported in France because it happens by the hands of immigrants....which France does not want to report....

Some months back i reported on some of the things that were happening to convicts in France, they kept releasing rapers and even murderers after they committed crimes several times, yet they were being released time and time again.... in France there are a lot of immigration from Muslim people, crimes done to muslim women are not always reported, although they do happen. Muslim women are similar in a way to Japanese women, they have a different opinion about honor than in other countries, and it is one of the reasons why quite a few crimes go unreported.


LOL, you disagree on 1 war and look what happens



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