Could Atlantis have been built inside caldera of a volcanic island?

a reply to: bloodymarvelous


that would be the place, strange how it looks like a group of circular islands that got destroyed.

I still think that Atlantis is west of Libya, but if we are going to be looking for a flat out lost island then Cruiser Tablemount does seem to fit the bill.

a reply to: Guyfriday

Hmm while I am with the eye of the Sahara believers you know you do have a good point and there are many potential candidates including island's that may have sunk during seismic event's which could have and probably did include increased volcanic activity.

Here is just one such candidate a location many over the years have tried to prove is were platonic Atlantis was.
www.goldenageproject.org.uk...

a reply to: bloodymarvelous

Indeed you are correct, Greek civilization can even be argued to have began in the Mycenaean period and in fact be a continuation of seed of it, there are differences though but far too many similarity's between the two cultures the younger and the older for this not to be the case as well.
In fact Linear B the language the Mycenaean's wrote in is the earliest form of 'Greek' writing known, Atlantis was supposed to be a foreign power and not a Greek power which is another nail in the coffin of the idea that Mycenae and by extension Santorini which was a Mycenaean island were anything at all to do with Atlantis.

a reply to: LABTECH767

Your understanding of the dynamics of the bronze age med is lacking.
The Mycenaens were a product of contact with and influence by the Minoans.
Before Minoan trade goods show up, Mycenae was a nothing more than a goat herders villiage
The unruly and warlike Mycenaens adopted the Minoan "Warrior Package" of weapons, martial and societal traditions.
The fortress of Mycenae was built using Cretan techniques, Mycenaen pottery, textiles and other cultural goods can all be traced to Minoan techniques.
Linear B is derived from Minoan Linear A, which in turn is derived from a Dravidian trade script, brought to Crete when it was ruled by the Akkadians. In fact when you look closely, the Minoans were a daughter culture to the Akkadians, just like the Mycenaens to the Minoans.
And just like the Mycenaens absorbed much of the Minoan holdings when they collapsed, the Minoans took over the coastal Levantine possessions of the Akkadians.
The Minoans weren't just Cretans, no they were a loose conglomerate of Agean and particularly Cycladic people, that paid allegiance to the Wanax of Crete.
The Wanax, and Minoans were powerful enough that the Pharaoh addressed the Wanax as "Brother" in official correspondence and at least one Pharaoh married the daughter of the Wanax.
There is an interesting letter from a Pharaoh to the Wanax asking why his shipment of copper and bronze goods has not arrived, and actually pleads with the wanax to make the delivery.
The Wanax replies that a calamity has befallen his realm and all of the metal workers have perished and he cannot ship the metals.
The Pharaoh replies back that he can send men to do the work if that would help.

I'll continue after work.

originally posted by: turbo8
Check out this location on google maps.

21.123540, -11.399265

Richat Structure

I'm convinced.

a reply to: punkinworks10

Actually it is theorized that the Greek's civilization borrowed more heavily from Egyptian's and that civilization may have first reached them via Egyptian fishermen though it is likely given the evidence of previous cultures such as the remains on Malta (not to mention the mysterious track's on that island many of which lead right off of cliff's as if those cliff's were not there when they were formed - same gauge as British railways' with a long potential history behind how we came to use the same measure.

There would have of course been trade around ALL civilization in the Mediterranean coastal region's but Egypt was definitely the biggest player.

And before you assume that the entire culture and all of it's achievement's on Santorini was lost when the volcano and ensuing tsunami swept it away I would carefully reconsider that if I were you.

They definitely had link's beyond the Mediterranean and while copper came from other sources most of the tin in there world was traded with the people of Cornwall an ancient place in my country were there are age old legend's of lost land's that sank beneath the waves such as Ys or Lioness with the people of the scilly isles claiming there islands are actually the mountains of that lost land www.pollyanna-jones.co.uk... , like I say many atlantis not a single one and more than one would fit plato in all but size except for the Eye of the Sahara which I agree with others' is likely the location of the city once built upon a natural feature.

Let's see this, you assume that modern understanding of sea level and land level is dead accurate, set in stone and not open to debate along with quite a few other's that do not like having there boat rocked.

But the ancient people's did not see it that way, they remembered lost land's, not just islands but entire land's and island's that once hosted entire people's lost beneath the waves in some terrible event - that seems to have occurred long after the ice age.

Legend's often have a kernel (heart) of truth, remember how Troy was discovered everyone except Schliemann thought exactly as you do that Atlantis was an allegorical tale until he not only rediscovered it after painfully diligent research and exploration but in fact discovered a site that had been built upon many time's over and even the Troy of the odyssey it seem's was very far from the first city on that site, it had a perfect place to control what in the ancient world was one of the most important water ways in the med and was already ancient by the time of the Trojan wars, of course Schliemann did help a lot of the gold to disappear but hey it's one of those rare cases were the treasure hunting archaeologist was perhaps right as the Turks would have gotten there hand's upon it and it would have disappeared anyway and anyway the discovery of the city was far more important than what may or may not have been Priam's gold - most likely not his gold because the Greeks would have looted that alright so actually the treasure of a king whom most likely long predated Priam.

Also another Greek myth that was long thought allegorical it turn's out was real, the REAL King Midas, it turn's out that the Greek's at that time were quite thuggish and very primitive while there NORTHERN neighbor Phrygia - also another root of Greek civilization - were far in advance of the Greek culture of the time and Midas was an actual figure in history.

The Greeks of the time were if anything in awe of the Phrygia whom had great city's and standing army's as well as being fabulously wealthy.

And Gordion the probable city of Midas was just one of there city's.


Lastly DO NOT try to paint your fellow members as Idiot's, it is a disgusting tactic to try to pick and win a debate and has nothing to do with facts, the cultures were named mostly in line with early sites and were coexistent, they shared the same world and ultimately the same end though the Mycenaean culture did survive long enough after the world breaking catastrophe of thera to have continuation into the Hellenistic period, there culture did not therefore vanish it stagnated then leaped onward and they did not stop sharing, learning and trading with other cultures it's called Diffusion-ism, local diffusion-ism and it's a valid argument for all global culture, were humans have colonized humans' have traded.

These cultures were not only VERY close neighbors they would have intermarried, traded and probably even shared culture if not God's and maybe even language.

Also as to there toilette, plumbing and houses have a look at the later period of the Phoenician culture especially Carthage which is believed to have began as a Phoenician colony though that is not proven simply believed - they too had hot water, running and even toilets inside there home's, bathroom's that would not look out of place in a modern house though let's be fair we would regard them as savages with there child sacrifice beliefs - the symbol of there goddess to whom they murders sacrificed children - often the children of slaves or captives taken for just this purpose resembled an Ankh but it's top half more like a capital Greek letter Omega and it's lower half like a capital Delta, while it may be a shame that the Roman's raised Carthage to the ground (And salted the earth - before coming back a bit later and founding the roman city of Carthage near the site of the original) it was perhaps to our benefit that despite there own cruel and inhumane tendency the Roman's were far more civilized and given there own propensity to nick from other cultures they probably stole more than there Roman Galleys from the Carthaginian's, you know they had triple glazed window's in one bath house in Rome, did they invent or steal the idea of the Hypercaust etc.

But I digress no matter how you try to shoe horn it in Thera was NOT Atlantis though it is possible that given the number of linked beliefs such as the Egyptian legends of Zep Tepi, the primordial Island of the God's in the center of the world NILE for example (Ancient astronaut buff's think that means another planet in the milky way) that matches so well the legend of Atlantis itself and of course the links' to the ancient king lists and the king's of Atlantis, the ancient Egyptian deitys and those same king's made here by others may well suggest that Egypt itself was either a colony of or had direct link to a real ancient Atlantis the survivors of which may have settled then in Egypt - Thera is once again too soon and not enough survived - also at the time of Thera's highest point of culture Egypt a culture whose doctors had filling for teeth and made dentures and prosthetic's for people as well as performed complex surgery's which the likes of Hippocrates (great oath too few medicine for money doctors ever live up to these day's) could only have dreamed of was at least equal to them anyway so owed them nothing.

Also what we can tell of the Theran's there culture while perhaps having some of the best architecture of there time (only preserved to today by being buried in volcanic material like an earlier Pompeii or Herculaneum) may not have been the only one's in the ancient Mediterranean to sport that architecture which shows and evidence of two way influence with the Greek's especially in the surviving fresco's and that say's to me that they were Greek like it or not

originally posted by: LABTECH767
a reply to: punkinworks10

Actually it is theorized that the Greek's civilization borrowed more heavily from Egyptian's

"Theorized" by whom?

Nobody that knows anything about the Greeks, that's for sure.

Harte

a reply to: Harte

And what do YOU know about the GREEK's heart from behind your text book's and teaching desk over on the US.

As I remember you made a rather grandiose claim over another matter concerning a different subject that of Puma Punku and Tihuanaco/Tiwanaku.

BUT you left out that little and exceptionally pertinent fact that most of the site that we see today had been RESTORED ie REBUILT in by archaeologists from the US and also from Bolivia earlier in the century people whom already had an entrenched ideology of what the site SHOULD look like.

There is a saying Heart, 'it's all Greek to Me' which was a kind of analogy for lack of understanding.

The Roman's borrowed heavily from the Greek cultures (more than one though today we do lump them in as a single unit) and the Greek's themselves borrowed heavily from other cultures, because it was believed they were closely related to northern European's by Victorian scholars - whom were inventing much of the basis of Archaeology and revised classical history from within there own imagination's flavoring it extremely heavily with prejudiced view's of what should be and should not be and so undermining any real and unbiased science behind it at that early stage in the disciplines development and even the peer review that should have held that behavior in check was worthless with even the likes of the elite of science such as the gentlemen of the Royal Society mostly being as clueless as those whom were laying these foundation's down and there review being more about how much they liked the idea than whether or not it was actually correct.

So for a very long time and indeed mostly due to bigotry and bias Egypt and the near east beyond Greece were overlooked while Greece was credited as the cradle of western civilization, some cradle when they had borrowed from other's including other already extant European cultures.

Also the significance of Greece to western history has been over inflated because it is magnified by the fact Greece had an early and still used form of writing and even spoken language, if anything though I am pretty certain the Roman's were actually more civilized than the Greek's and as we know the Roman's were a bloody lot.

Still one can understand how a teacher would love them what with there cruel education system - effective but definitely not a morally upstanding way of teaching children and perhaps the origin of the word phrase "Whipping boy".

Most Greek's we see today are actually a different people to the 'original' (loosely speaking) Greek's since they had invasion's, mixing with other people's etc but we can guess from the pottery that the Greek's of the classical period were in fact mostly dark swarthy skinned near eastern people's much indeed as many appear today, the Macedonians it has long been believed though were a Blonde sub Racial group of central southern European's, the odd thing is that many descriptions of the Greek pantheon portray there god's as golden haired THOUGH one does have to wonder to what degree Victorian translation's were biased as indeed the Greek's as a whole were for a long time portrayed as sunny Scandinavian's by them.

In fact while pigment ages and sometime's darkened many depictions of the Greek's on there own surviving ancient pottery and fresco's suggest they were in appearance even darker than most near eastern people's of today, perhaps even more like the Egyptian's probably really looked though there cultures were greatly different - some scholars as you KNOW believe though that the Greek civilization itself may have it's true origin in the Egyptian culture though this could also be argued away as simply a trade of idea's in a small world that dominated the lives of all people whom lived in the ancient Mediterranean world (and I shall include the British Isles particularly there southern portion's and Iberia as well as north west Africa in that).

Then look at how other idea's passed between those cultures, the Maze for example stylized in the Celtic world using the older spiral form and in the Greek and other Mediterranean cultures in the square form with the ruin's of Knossos probably being the origin of the Greek parable.

Go to the island of Malta and also several other sites and you may find what was perhaps once a ceremonial pathway for the devotee's of the ancient cult that once paid homage to there goddess figure there (I wonder whom beheaded it, that path is also winding and maze like but more like a spiral), there are certain parallel's which suggest that the cult at Malta may have been a truly ancient religion, perhaps with several variant's or that it shared the stylized female form among several different group's as the earlier small statues.

Sorry about the source but you shall have a far better acquaintance already with these ancient figurines.
i.dailymail.co.uk...
old.culturemalta.org...

And while it is tempting to laugh out loud with ancient man's fascination with fat lady's it shows both a potential EXTREMELY long continuity of belief or a shared cultural influence long before the Entire Greek period (the Greek period as you well know arguably did not actually end until the fall of Constantinople to the Invading Turk's whom were only able to finally conquer it as a result of dirty dealing's by the doge of Venice whom had blackmailed the leaders of the last crusade to instead of trying once again to retake Jerusalem to instead sack the Christian city which was Venice's main economic competitor at the time).

originally posted by: LABTECH767
a reply to: Harte

And what do YOU know about the GREEK's heart from behind your text book's and teaching desk over on the US.

As I remember you made a rather grandiose claim over another matter concerning a different subject that of Puma Punku and Tihuanaco/Tiwanaku.

BUT you left out that little and exceptionally pertinent fact that most of the site that we see today had been RESTORED ie REBUILT in by archaeologists from the US and also from Bolivia earlier in the century people whom already had an entrenched ideology of what the site SHOULD look like.

You are either wrong or lying about me. I've even posted pictures here of Tiahuanaco taken before it was rebuilt.
Get your # straight, or don't talk to me.

originally posted by: LABTECH767
There is a saying Heart, 'it's all Greek to Me' which was a kind of analogy for lack of understanding.

The Roman's borrowed heavily from the Greek cultures (more than one though today we do lump them in as a single unit) and the Greek's themselves borrowed heavily from other cultures, because it was believed they were closely related to northern European's by Victorian scholars - whom were inventing much of the basis of Archaeology and revised classical history from within there own imagination's flavoring it extremely heavily with prejudiced view's of what should be and should not be and so undermining any real and unbiased science behind it at that early stage in the disciplines development and even the peer review that should have held that behavior in check was worthless with even the likes of the elite of science such as the gentlemen of the Royal Society mostly being as clueless as those whom were laying these foundation's down and there review being more about how much they liked the idea than whether or not it was actually correct.

So for a very long time and indeed mostly due to bigotry and bias Egypt and the near east beyond Greece were overlooked while Greece was credited as the cradle of western civilization, some cradle when they had borrowed from other's including other already extant European cultures.

Also the significance of Greece to western history has been over inflated because it is magnified by the fact Greece had an early and still used form of writing and even spoken language, if anything though I am pretty certain the Roman's were actually more civilized than the Greek's and as we know the Roman's were a bloody lot.

Still one can understand how a teacher would love them what with there cruel education system - effective but definitely not a morally upstanding way of teaching children and perhaps the origin of the word phrase "Whipping boy".

Most Greek's we see today are actually a different people to the 'original' (loosely speaking) Greek's since they had invasion's, mixing with other people's etc but we can guess from the pottery that the Greek's of the classical period were in fact mostly dark swarthy skinned near eastern people's much indeed as many appear today, the Macedonians it has long been believed though were a Blonde sub Racial group of central southern European's, the odd thing is that many descriptions of the Greek pantheon portray there god's as golden haired THOUGH one does have to wonder to what degree Victorian translation's were biased as indeed the Greek's as a whole were for a long time portrayed as sunny Scandinavian's by them.

In fact while pigment ages and sometime's darkened many depictions of the Greek's on there own surviving ancient pottery and fresco's suggest they were in appearance even darker than most near eastern people's of today, perhaps even more like the Egyptian's probably really looked though there cultures were greatly different - some scholars as you KNOW believe though that the Greek civilization itself may have it's true origin in the Egyptian culture though this could also be argued away as simply a trade of idea's in a small world that dominated the lives of all people whom lived in the ancient Mediterranean world (and I shall include the British Isles particularly there southern portion's and Iberia as well as north west Africa in that).

Then look at how other idea's passed between those cultures, the Maze for example stylized in the Celtic world using the older spiral form and in the Greek and other Mediterranean cultures in the square form with the ruin's of Knossos probably being the origin of the Greek parable.

Go to the island of Malta and also several other sites and you may find what was perhaps once a ceremonial pathway for the devotee's of the ancient cult that once paid homage to there goddess figure there (I wonder whom beheaded it, that path is also winding and maze like but more like a spiral), there are certain parallel's which suggest that the cult at Malta may have been a truly ancient religion, perhaps with several variant's or that it shared the stylized female form among several different group's as the earlier small statues.

Sorry about the source but you shall have a far better acquaintance already with these ancient figurines.
i.dailymail.co.uk...
old.culturemalta.org...

And while it is tempting to laugh out loud with ancient man's fascination with fat lady's it shows both a potential EXTREMELY long continuity of belief or a shared cultural influence long before the Entire Greek period (the Greek period as you well know arguably did not actually end until the fall of Constantinople to the Invading Turk's whom were only able to finally conquer it as a result of dirty dealing's by the doge of Venice whom had blackmailed the leaders of the last crusade to instead of trying once again to retake Jerusalem to instead sack the Christian city which was Venice's main economic competitor at the time).

Where in that ridiculous wall of text can I find your reference stating that the Greeks were more influenced by the Egyptians than the Mycenaeans?
You made the claim. I'll wait and see if you back it up.

Harte

originally posted by: LABTECH767
a reply to: Harte

And what do YOU know about the GREEK's heart from behind your text book's and teaching desk over on the US.

As I remember you made a rather grandiose claim over another matter concerning a different subject that of Puma Punku and Tihuanaco/Tiwanaku.

BUT you left out that little and exceptionally pertinent fact that most of the site that we see today had been RESTORED ie REBUILT in by archaeologists from the US and also from Bolivia earlier in the century people whom already had an entrenched ideology of what the site SHOULD look like.

originally posted by: HarteYou are either wrong or lying about me. I've even posted pictures here of Tiahuanaco taken before it was rebuilt.
Get your # straight, or don't talk to me.

I guess this supposed exchange between us took place prior to 2011?

originally posted by: Harte
Also - Posnanski's dating method involved him assuming the positions of certain structures that were no longer there. That might be okay for a ballpark figure, but as you yourself noted, the archaeoastronomy used was by nature extremely succeptible to large errors if the "alignments" were only a degree or two off (which can easily happen if the structure you're "aligning" with isn't actually there anymore!)

Harte

Or prior to 2008?

originally posted by: Harte
As you stated, given the condition of the site when it was found - dismantled and robbed of (no doubt) a large number of artifacts, it's unlikely that any construction tools or records will ever be found.

Harte

Yeah. Thought so.

Harte

a reply to: Harte

HARTE,

If I have mistaken you for someone else on a previous thread then I offer my profound apology, the thread was talking about Tiahuanaco and the other person said they had been to Tihuanaco and performed or been a part of an excavation were they had seen no evidence to support earlier dating of the site, they omitted to mention that the site (only a fraction of the true site as you know which is mostly far underground and in part's look's to have been buried as if the lake left is' bed and ran over the place in some ancient upheaval) had been renovated and RESTORED at least to how the Bolivian and US archaeologists back in the 50's believed that it should look as prior to that the site which was still being robbed out by local's for there modern home's and town's was in danger of disappearing like so very many other sites before it - look at that idiot that bulldozed a pyramid on the other side of the continent to use for road building and to build upon the site.

I do not have a perfect memory, far from it and have had some pretty recent trauma which may have affected my judgement (lost someone I hold to be more important to me than ME but we all have lost family - nothing worse).

So once again Harte if I have mistaken you through my own faulty memory for another member I do sincerely apologize, actually I value your opinion and you have a great wealth of knowledge - and also you can when you choose to be far more pleasant than some of the other more terse big heads on the site (ha not saying you are a big head or anything - we all have ego's but mine is a wee tiny one most of the time and I shall not say whom I am thinking of but that member can be rather brash in there responses to less enlightened members while I remember you adopting a teaching stance in your method of reply which was far superior as a method of arguing your point - and supporting it).

To be fair though we are probably the only one's still reading this thread now other than the Author.
That said I am sorry for making that snide comment about the Whipping boy.

I wonder Harte if the Greek's invented there Greek Fire or if they inherited it from earlier cultures, I mean we still have a relatively poor picture of the Hittites for example despite having cracked there language which as you know is indo European and very similar to today's German and English languages.

Then there are the Persian's and of course Alexander wiped there capital Persepolis off the map, nice trick with the cavalry and those peltasts of his but after winning that battle the destruction of what was regarded as one of the most cultured and magnificent city's of the ancient world was needless vandalism - and when I say Alexander I know he was Macedonian but we do all tend to lump them in with the Greek's.

Perhaps it is a mercy he never sacked India as he had Persia and before that the ancient city of Tyre as well as many other great city's.

Sometime's destruction can be the catalyst of release for information, idea's and knowledge but far more usually it is there demise, perhaps even then they knew this and it may have been one of the reason's for the later founding of the great temple of Alexandria, I believe a lot of that knowledge survived and was not lost though when the roman's set there mind to something they were pretty thorough.

Not the only great loss of knowledge in history either and it seem's almost every major war over the last two and a half Millennia has had such an occurrence, we can only ponder at the loss of knowledge that may have affected the land's we now know as China when the supposed first emperor destroyed as much information as he could only for the much later - and far more recent cultural revolution to put the top hat on it.

Or the destruction of the library's of the Aztec empire, mostly for religious reason's but still make's you wonder what astronomical observation's and knowledge they may have inherited from earlier cultures was then lost.

Or the destruction of entire cultures, there writing's perhaps even there alphabet's by the Mongol's or even earlier vast tribal migrations - as you know the Hun may have originated in western Mongolia though that is based only a few pottery shard's and could also be wrong as they could also have been a Turkic Eurasian tribe and trade as well as exchange of idea's could also explain those shards.

And going right back to the old Hittites, were did they come from and were did they gain there knowledge of Iron, was there some lost civilization in Eurasia we know nothing of, perhaps even an age of such lost civilizations and were the Hittites with there almost military like code fleeing from someone else? forcing them to migrate southward.

That said back to the Greek's, they still had the best architecture (Aesthetic) until the Roman's came along in my opinion.

Either way Sorry if I offended.

originally posted by: Guyfriday
a reply to: bloodymarvelous


that would be the place, strange how it looks like a group of circular islands that got destroyed.

I'm quite in love with the site. Thank you for sharing it!

originally posted by: LABTECH767
a reply to: Harte



I wonder Harte if the Greek's invented there Greek Fire or if they inherited it from earlier cultures, I mean we still have a relatively poor picture of the Hittites for example despite having cracked there language which as you know is indo European and very similar to today's German and English languages.

...

And going right back to the old Hittites, were did they come from and were did they gain there knowledge of Iron, was there some lost civilization in Eurasia we know nothing of, perhaps even an age of such lost civilizations and were the Hittites with there almost military like code fleeing from someone else? forcing them to migrate southward.

That said back to the Greek's, they still had the best architecture (Aesthetic) until the Roman's came along in my opinion.

Either way Sorry if I offended.

You make well the point that, in ancient times, technology was a closely guarded secret.

There were no patents back then, so if you invented something, and then went around a shared it with everyone, you would quickly lose out on all the benefits of having gotten it figured out first.

And even to this day, some inventions remain state secrets.


If the Atlanteans had a secret, such as the ability to sail across the ocean, they would have taken great care never to share that secret with the cultures they encountered. That way their island becomes effectively an impenetrable fortress, by virtue of they being the only ones capable of venturing across the ocean to get there.

That allows them to grow in relative prosperity, free from the need to defend themselves.

And all this is quite consistent with the location given by GuyFriday. It sits very well in the story. A fertile volcanic island that someone needed to sail across the ocean to reach in the first place.

So they encounter it the way America encountered its Western Frontier (except there were no natives to wipe out.) All the new land gives them a golden age (much like it did for the USA.)

Then things go well for several generations until a combination of population stress, and simple greed motivates them to venture out into the world and start conquering stuff.

a reply to: bloodymarvelous

Greek fire was invented by the Byzantines in the 7th Century AD - old but not ancient. Incendiary weapons existed before Greek fire but were nowhere near as effective. For example, Polyaenus and Aelian both wrote of the use of flaming pigs / incendiary pigs against Antigonus II Gonatas when he was besieging Megara in 266 BC (this was to break the massed formation of War Elephants). The only other decently succesful "fire machine" before this was the one invented by the Boeotians for use against Athenian wooden fortifications and structures at the Battle of Delium in 424 BC.

Prior to that, you are looking at fire arrows.

a reply to: Flavian

Right then Flavian give us the Formulae.

Sorry what was that you don't know it but can perhaps guess that it was made from certain chemical's and oil's including perhaps Phosphor because it burned in water and water made it hotter and burn more?.

And you know it only dates from the 600's how?.

Of course we know there were perhaps several formulas for it as the Byzantine Marine's used it and even had ship mounted flame throwers that fired the stuff at other ship's a little like a reverse old hand cranked fire engine or something similar were it was fired out from a brass nozzle usually an ornamental one.

Sorry not buying it, that claim is an Educated guess not a solid set in stone historical fact, the only thing placing after the roman empire's hay-day is that it was not mentioned as used by the Roman's and they loved to adopt other people's weapon's if they had merit - they even had crossbow's as did China at the same time though the Roman ones were huge affairs more akin to an early artillery - though the principle was identical if scaled up, meanwhile the Chinese had standardized crossbow's that were mass produced for there army's to a set design meaning that the brass trigger from one crossbow could be removed and slotted into the wooden body of another crossbow and it would fit perfectly.

So while I do accept that Greek fire is probably from post AD 350 onward I do not accept that it was suddenly invented in the 600's and it may indeed have a much longer history than that, we call it Greek Fire because they did but remember Byzantium had dealing's with the fire worshipers of Persia, there holy fires were fed and still are by natural gas and oil sump's that rise up from underground (unless modern petroleum extraction has extinguished them), why could it not have come from or inspired a Byzantine scholar whom may have been there at some time prior to that.

There is also the possibility the idea was brought from further afield, there was a hell of a loss of historical knowledge when the Islamic expansion swept through Persia, the Hindu Kush and India, the burned entire library's and university's of scholars and monk's that would have put the library of Alexandria to shame, razed entire city's and stole, stole and stole as they raped and murdered there merry way to conquest, today we use ancient Indian Numeral's and falsely attribute them to Arabs wrongly calling them Arabic Numeral's, there were then the Indian Alloy's some of which are supposedly being recreated with surprising result's and one of those we all know about is another Indian Alloy this time a Steel alloy called WRONGLY Damascus Steel, it was never made or came from Damascus but originated in the south of India.

Let's go back earlier shall we and onto something else Poison Gas which may have been used thousands of years before the rise of Rome.

Tell us a little about that.

Look I am not goading you I am arguing a point, you do not know and neither do I as we were NOT there, what we know come's form dusty textbook's and other people's opinion's, often those people are expert's or regarded as such but even they make assumption's and best guess being as close to emphatic truth as they can come to historical fact's and point's for which there is no direct historical information giving us a perfect date such as letters', inscriptions and monument's that we can tie to a specific perfectly identifiable moment in time.

The only thing pinning it to the seventh century is the claim it was created to fight the Islamic invaders by the Byzantines but if so why did the Byzantines call it GREEK fire?.

OR was it from an ancient manuscript? a Greek Manuscript as they were mostly ethnic Greek's after all and still spoke a variation on and wrote in Greek.


Once again I point out that it is Opinion because the Byzantine's used it in the seventh century and that is a known fact BUT it's invention and origin still remain a mystery.
The Byzantines also used Hand Grenades filled with the stuff - basically pottery jars that they would throw at enemy's.

Not Greek fire but Chemical warfare, there are claim's that the ancient Assyrians and others may have also used Chemical warfare and even poison gas but this is one that has some evidence to back it up and is from rather more recent, Roman time's.
www.sciencedaily.com...

Now it is reasonably possible that your statement IS correct and that Greek Fire originated in the seventh Century but without proof that is the case it remains' an opinion and a blanket statement and it is possible the formulae and concept originate from far earlier, Constantinople had a great wealth of ancient texts many of which were lost when the Turk's conquered it but thankfully as there leader wanted to keep the city mostly intact - after destroying it's ancient wall's with his massive siege cannon and was from a far more enlightened period of Islamic expansion many document's not only survived but went on to be discovered by, studied by and disseminated by the Islamic scholars of the day including ancient greek work's and literature as well as philosophical (early scientific) treatise and and discourse between Greek luminary's and this was how they eventually came to Europe and triggered the Renaissance, via the Islamic dispersion of these material's which eventually filtered back into the hand's of European scholars.

But with that it is interesting to note that even the Greek's often references earlier sources in there discourse.

originally posted by: Guyfriday
Cruiser Tablemount looks more promising for those inclined to take a direct description of the land.

Flat-Topped Atlantis, Cruiser, And Great Meteor Seamounts

Bruce C. Heezen, Maurice Ewing, D.B. Ericson, and C.R. Bentley
Lamount Geological Observatory (Columbia University), Palisades, N.Y.

“The Atlantis Seamount, briefly explored in 1947… apparent radiocarbon age of 12,000 years +/- 900… the limestone suggest that it may have been lithified under subaerial conditions and that the seamount may have been an island within the past 12,000 years.

The quote above ~ and the paperwork it comes from ~ shown on Blavatsky.net is an actual, factual document.

I received the actual 1954 abstract in PDF form from The Geological Society of America in ONE DAY! Too bad the Freedom of Information Act does not respond that fast.

[email protected]

You too can receive the same 1954 transcript by writing to Jennifer at the above address.

a reply to: spiritualarchitect

Not directly related but it has a lot of Atlantis information and also references other sites underwater, there are a few on this site whom hate this book and to be fair much of the information is both dated and also inaccurate but still a book that I read long ago and so too have many other's from before the internet age.

This book as a best seller and achieved quasi mythical status.

archive.org...

And thank you for bringing us back on topic, sorry I am responsible for the earlier drift.

originally posted by: LABTECH767
a reply to: spiritualarchitect

Not directly related but it has a lot of Atlantis information and also references other sites underwater, there are a few on this site whom hate this book and to be fair much of the information is both dated and also inaccurate but still a book that I read long ago and so too have many other's from before the internet age.

This book as a best seller and achieved quasi mythical status.

archive.org...

And thank you for bringing us back on topic, sorry I am responsible for the earlier drift.

Berlitz made most of his stuff up. It is Berlitz we have to thank for the fake Mahabharata quote about nuclear war.
He also invented the Bermuda Triangle "mystery."

Harte

a reply to: LABTECH767

I read that book back in the 80's. Liked it more than Harte whom I think may be giving Berlitz too much credit.

I mean those five planes and their pilots did disappear. And so did the big search plane and it's crew sent to look for them. They all disappeared and were never heard from again. The mystery already existed.

Oddly enough I was just reading the Drona Parva nuke stuff last week. Remember "Chariots Of The Gods" from 1968, that had those Hindu nuke quotes about burning elephants and so forth? I think that came before Berlitz wrote any books. And the original of course came thousands of years before Berlitz.

Drona Parva, book 7 of The Mahabharata, section 7.202:

"The very elements seemed to be perturbed. The sun seemed to turn. The universe, scorched with heat, seemed to be in a fever. The elephants and other creatures of the land, scorched by the energy of that weapon, ran in fright, breathing heavily and desirous of protection against that terrible force. The very waters heated, the creatures residing in that element, O Bharata, became exceedingly uneasy and seemed to burn. From all the points of the compass, cardinal and subsidiary, from the firmament and the very earth, showers of sharp and fierce arrows fell and issued with the impetuosity of Garuda or the wind. Struck and burnt by those shafts of Aswatthaman that were all endued with the impetuosity of the thunder, the hostile warriors fell down like trees burnt down by a raging fire. Huge elephants, burnt by that weapon, fell down on the earth all around, uttering fierce cries loud as the rumblings of the clouds. Other huge elephants, scorched by that fire, ran hither and thither, and roared aloud in fear, as if in the midst of a forest conflagration. The steeds, O king, and the cars also, burnt by the energy of that weapon, looked, O sire, like the tops of trees burnt in a forest-fire. […] We had never before, O king, heard of or seen the like of that weapon which Drona's son created in wrath on that occasion. […] Burnt by the energy of Aswatthaman's weapon, the forms of the slain could not be distinguished."

originally posted by: spiritualarchitect
a reply to: LABTECH767

I read that book back in the 80's. Liked it more than Harte

whom I think may be giving Berlitz too much credit.

I mean those five planes and their pilots did disappear. And so did the big search plane and it's crew sent to look for them. They all disappeared and were never heard from again. The mystery already existed.

Oddly enough I was just reading the Drona Parva nuke stuff last week. Remember "Chariots Of The Gods" from 1968, that had those Hindu nuke quotes about burning elephants and so forth? I think that came before Berlitz wrote any books. And the original of course came thousands of years before Berlitz.

Drona Parva, book 7 of The Mahabharata, section 7.202:

"The very elements seemed to be perturbed. The sun seemed to turn. The universe, scorched with heat, seemed to be in a fever. The elephants and other creatures of the land, scorched by the energy of that weapon, ran in fright, breathing heavily and desirous of protection against that terrible force. The very waters heated, the creatures residing in that element, O Bharata, became exceedingly uneasy and seemed to burn. From all the points of the compass, cardinal and subsidiary, from the firmament and the very earth, showers of sharp and fierce arrows fell and issued with the impetuosity of Garuda or the wind. Struck and burnt by those shafts of Aswatthaman that were all endued with the impetuosity of the thunder, the hostile warriors fell down like trees burnt down by a raging fire. Huge elephants, burnt by that weapon, fell down on the earth all around, uttering fierce cries loud as the rumblings of the clouds. Other huge elephants, scorched by that fire, ran hither and thither, and roared aloud in fear, as if in the midst of a forest conflagration. The steeds, O king, and the cars also, burnt by the energy of that weapon, looked, O sire, like the tops of trees burnt in a forest-fire. […] We had never before, O king, heard of or seen the like of that weapon which Drona's son created in wrath on that occasion. […] Burnt by the energy of Aswatthaman's weapon, the forms of the slain could not be distinguished."

That's not the fake quote.
You really don't know what I'm talking about?
You can read about it here.

Also, I'm not the one crediting Berlitz for inventing the Bermuda Triangle. Skeptics have written about this.
Berlitz didn't invent it all, but he invented the concept as we know it today.

You should understand that the region of the triangle is no more dangerous for shipping and flying than any other similar-size area on the ocean.

Harte