For all you Pro-Choicers

originally posted by: Grenade

I think the majority of the pro-choice crowd are terrified of having to bring up children, it means less time concentrating on themselves, sacrifice, compromise, responsibility etc.

Many pro-choicers (such as myself) ARE parents, you ignorant clown. What an amazingly stupid and ignorant comment. Absurdly ignorant. You should honestly be ashamed of saying something so incredibly uninformed and ignorant.

Edit: for some reason ATS decided to repeat my comment multiple times.

Edit: for some reason ATS decided to repeat my comment multiple times.

Edit: for some reason ATS decided to repeat my comment multiple times.

I'm a little confused by this post.

I really don't even get the point let alone SEE a point written in this post at all.

originally posted by: Nyiah

originally posted by: Lumenari

originally posted by: Nyiah
a reply to: JoeGee

Dude, unless you're a post-op FtM, you didn't have an abortion yourself.

Also, you were in no position at 16 to take care of YOURSELF competently on your own dime, let alone a baby. Obvious adult with sufficient income today is obvious.

What do you want, a pat on the back and a ticker tape parade? You made choices for a damn good reason each time. Why do you need belly-rubbed & good boy-ed for it now?

Quoted for the most callous post I've ever had the misfortune to read on ATS.

Fine. I'm asking bluntly ANYWAY. No emotional heartstrings to tug, just the meat of it. Why does he feel the need to be congratulated for his choices? He made them based on HIS life's needs & circumstances, not ours. He doesn't need approval from anyone for making a decision. So why does he feel like he does?

How good a life do you seriously think a teenager could have made for the long-term with a baby or child support garnishments in the mix? I had a cheap studio apartment at 17, ramen or rice for damn near every meal, and could barely afford THAT on minimum wage FT. In no way, shape or form would having had a baby at that age have been feasible or justifiable. That would have been abject poverty whether or not I had a SO to share the monetary problems with.

Money issues should not be reason enough to abort.
Yes its important, but not the deciding factor.

The OP is a tough guy for sticking it out.
Fatherhood is a tough job and many avoid it.

The scariest moment for these fetus killers who kill for poor reasons, on their death bed they will be confrontrd.by the people the terminated.

They will say mom, this is what I would have looked like and could have become.

One question mom

Why?

Out of sight out of mind, these people going around having so much unprotected sex they need abortions.
Its like they already are doing 1 thing wrong
By not having protected sex.
They dont want kids. But they take the gamble anyway.

95% of the time its the man trying to convince the women to not use protection.

What kind of women fall for this?

So they don't want kids
Wont use protection
Then abort when not convenient

That's called a 3x loser in by book.

originally posted by: JoeGee
a reply to: BrianFlanders

Its like a wonder ball

I am not telling you that you should hate your child or that you shouldn't make the best of it now that you have one. I'm telling you that you probably shouldn't be telling people that a schizophrenic crackhead living on welfare and food stamps shouldn't get an abortion simply because you wouldn't.

I can tell you that people who are doing very well (financially) often have difficulties raising a child in this world today (and it's probably just gonna get worse). That's assuming they have a very healthy child with a normal (or above normal) IQ and absolutely no mental or physical impairments whatsoever. One little issue can throw everything out of balance and the results can be a disaster.

If any emotion needs to be employed in the abortion "debate" it's fear. This "Awww! What a cute baby!" thing is an insanely absurd objection to what is often just plain common sense.

originally posted by: Bloodworth

Money issues should not be reason enough to abort.
Yes its important, but not the deciding factor.

Money is only an issue when you dont have any!!!

The OP is a tough guy for sticking it out.
Fatherhood is a tough job and many avoid it.

Lol!! did you miss this bit from his post?

When I was 16 I had my first abortion with my 2nd girlfriend. It was an easy decision at the time

He's a 'born again anti choicer'

The scariest moment for these fetus killers who kill for poor reasons

In your opinion? Who made you judge and jury?

on their death bed they will be confrontrd.by the people the terminated.
They will say mom, this is what I would have looked like and could have become.
One question mom
Why?

Proof? Links? or just a personal theory?

95% of the time its the man trying to convince the women to not use protection.
What kind of women fall for this?
So they don't want kids
Wont use protection
Then abort when not convenient

Lol!! some more personal experience?

originally posted by: Grenade
a reply to: JoeGee

Congratulations on your beautiful wee girl, nothing will come close to making you as happy as you will be bringing her up.
I think the majority of the pro-choice crowd are terrified of having to bring up children, it means less time concentrating on themselves, sacrifice, compromise, responsibility etc.
Glad at least one person has turned the corner.
Abortion is murder of the worst kind, against a completely innocent and defenceless little baby. That little girl would never have had a name, never shown you her smile and never given you the joy you have now should you have killed her before she even had a chance at life. Well done sir, i hope you do everything in your power to be a great dad for her.

Did you miss this bit?

When I was 16 I had my first abortion with my 2nd girlfriend. It was an easy decision at the time because I was a young, irresponsible and naive kid. I thought like any normal person in our age would. I can't afford this, my life would be over.

Or has his previous *sin* been wiped out now?

Abortion is murder of the worst kind, against a completely innocent and defenceless little baby. That little girl would never have had a name, never shown you her smile and never given you the joy you have now should you have killed her before she even had a chance at life.

originally posted by: Grenade
a reply to: eletheia

I have 2 scenarios for you.

1. A pregnant woman and her partner are expecting a baby, she is 8 months gone and the baby is due in a month. They have decorated the nursery, bought everything they need, have picked name for the baby, can't wait for their arrival.
She is assaulted in the street on the way home from work, lets say someone robbed her for her handbag and she tried to fight them off, as a result of the assault she loses the baby through a miscarriage. She was clearly pregnant to the assailant yet he kicks her in the stomach.

2. A non pregnant woman is assaulted in the street, receives a kick to the stomach and has no other injuries.

Do you think both of these crimes should be punished equally or should we attribute any kind of value at all to the child she was carrying and had already devoted herself to?

Whatever my thoughts on this are immaterial there are laws as it stands......

'Too hard to convict people of harming unborn babies'

The lawyer for a teenager who repeatedly punched his pregnant girlfriend in the stomach has told Newsbeat it's too hard to convict people of harming unborn children.

Dusan Bako, 18, from Oldham, has been sentenced to four years and eight months in a young offenders institute after admitting GBH. He assaulted her last August.

The 16-year-old was seven months pregnant.

She lost her baby but a charge of child destruction was dropped.

Bako, who wants to be rapper, had become angry because her phone was switched off.

Perhaps an abortion in this case before the fetus became viable would have

been a better option?

Why it's not murder to kill an unborn child

"Whatever moral standpoint you take, in the eyes of the law an unborn child is not a person so you can't be charged with murdering an unborn child and you can't be charged with assaulting an unborn child."
A law of child destruction applies to the deaths of some unborn babies, though, and carries a life sentence. Legal abortion is an exception.
But only 16 people have been found guilty of child destruction in 11 years in England and Wales, despite more and more attacks on pregnant women

www.bbc.co.uk...

originally posted by: Maroboduus

originally posted by: Grenade

I think the majority of the pro-choice crowd are terrified of having to bring up children, it means less time concentrating on themselves, sacrifice, compromise, responsibility etc.

Many pro-choicers (such as myself) ARE parents, you ignorant clown. What an amazingly stupid and ignorant comment. Absurdly ignorant. You should honestly be ashamed of saying something so incredibly uninformed and ignorant.

I stand by it regardless of your inability to constructively argue against my points.

Ironically you call me uninformed and ignorant yet outwith personal insults make no valid points.

ATS is not the place for keyboard warriors to vent their frustration when they see something they don't like and i would appreciate a mod reprimanding this poster for his nonconstructive post.

As for being ashamed for defending those who can't defend themselves, no, i think i'll continue even tho some angry keyboard warrior can't accept my opinions.

a reply to: eletheia

I didn't ask for the opinion of the British justice system. I asked if you put any value on the life of the unborn child. A child that both parents wanted and have prepared for only to lose at the last minute through no fault of their own. Abortion was not an option as they wanted the child.

originally posted by: eletheia

originally posted by: Grenade
a reply to: JoeGee

Congratulations on your beautiful wee girl, nothing will come close to making you as happy as you will be bringing her up.
I think the majority of the pro-choice crowd are terrified of having to bring up children, it means less time concentrating on themselves, sacrifice, compromise, responsibility etc.
Glad at least one person has turned the corner.
Abortion is murder of the worst kind, against a completely innocent and defenceless little baby. That little girl would never have had a name, never shown you her smile and never given you the joy you have now should you have killed her before she even had a chance at life. Well done sir, i hope you do everything in your power to be a great dad for her.

Did you miss this bit?

When I was 16 I had my first abortion with my 2nd girlfriend. It was an easy decision at the time because I was a young, irresponsible and naive kid. I thought like any normal person in our age would. I can't afford this, my life would be over.

Or has his previous *sin* been wiped out now?

Abortion is murder of the worst kind, against a completely innocent and defenceless little baby. That little girl would never have had a name, never shown you her smile and never given you the joy you have now should you have killed her before she even had a chance at life.

I don't think i used the term sin, that would imply i have some kind of religious undertone to my accusations.

There's nothing we can do about the past, except learn from our mistakes.

I'm glad the poster now realises the value of human life and regardless of the struggle involved is a loving and devoted father.

originally posted by: Maroboduus
a reply to: JoeGee

Is there any point whatsoever to your story, other than the fact that it was the right choice for you personally? No? No other point at all? Okay, then.

Does the fact that it was the right choice for you mean that people who were impregnated by a rapist, or by someone who took advantage of them when they were inebriated, or who has a condition that puts their life at risk if they carry through with a pregnancy, should also not consider abortion? Does the fact that it was the right choice for you mean it must necessarily be the right choice for everyone else, as well? No? Every case is different, and your individual case has no bearing whatsoever on the choices of others? No? Okay, then.
I am also a single parent. I also struggle from paycheck to paycheck. However, i'm not smug enough or narcissistic enough to think that my individual circumstance gives me the right to tell others what choices to make or dictate what others should do with their lives and health, or that my individual circumstance is somehow proof of some universal truth that applies in every single circumstance. Unlike, clearly, you.

Congrats on being happy. It doesnt mean that it gives you any authority on the subject or right to dictate to others what they should do with their lives. Thinking otherwise is incredibly smug.

I think his point is that when he was younger he didn't feel ready for kids but now he's actually a father it's not as scary as he thought, in fact he is now overjoyed at having a perfect little girl.

I am pro-life generally although i agree that someone who is raped should be allowed to have an abortion as long as it is early in the pregnancy, before the child forms limbs, has a heartbeat or is able to feel pain. I also agree that if the pregnancy has medical complications endangering the life of the mother then abortion is a viable option. I find both of these scenario's very sad but can accept the reasoning of the mother.

What i don't agree with is late term abortions by promiscuous girls who simply don't have the time or effort to bring up a child. These are the majority of abortions, in my country at least.

We are dictated to everyday on how we should live our lives, some of these LAWS i'm sure you don't necessarily agree with or can argue that in some circumstance aren't perfect.

Also, you don't have to instantly dismiss other people as ignorant and stupid because they don't agree with you. Ironically this is exactly the kind of attitude you exhibit, a self righteous, know it all who has no time for the opinion of others.

originally posted by: OccamsRazor04
a reply to: surfer_soul

Why would sperm life matter?

Your anti abortion right? At what period in pregnancy do you consider a life to be sacred? Would you go right back to conception when sperm meets egg? Or pick some arbitrary date after?

Can you prove that sperm isn’t alive as it has to swim hard to be first to reach the egg. At what point does life become sacred? Is it only human life that is sacred?

I take it you used the example of killing a two year to bring home these very points and therefore you believe a foetus has as much right to life as a toddler, only that it is in a different stage of development? I am sympathetic to this view but I’m not against early abortions when the foetus resembles more of a tadpole like the sperm that helped create it.

As I said the issue is very nuanced though I would not wish a rape victim to be forced by law, to bring a child into the world that she didn’t want and therefore might not love. As some parents in fact are cruel to their children and they have to and should be taken away from them. So it is you shouldn’t make it law to force those that really don’t want children to have them.

Also more lives are saved and preserved by modern medicine than nature alone would ever permit. So don’t bring natural law or god into it.

originally posted by: surfer_soul

Your anti abortion right?

Nope. I am all for abortion, as a medical procedure when the woman's life is in danger. I am not for abortion as a means of birth control.

Can you prove that sperm isn’t alive

Sperm is alive.

This is basic biology. Sperm is alive just like your skin cells are alive. DNA testing easily proves both of those, your skin cells and your sperm, belong to you and are not unique living organisms.

When the sperm fertilizes the egg, guess what happens, a new unique life is formed. That is undisputable. No one with any knowledge even tries. So we have a unique living creature, but we want to kill it, so we come up with arbitrary reasons why it is alright.

If the fetus is alive, if it is human, why is it not a person?

a reply to: Grenade

I think you made some valid arguments in your last posts which I have read, so I’ll address this.

What i don't agree with is late term abortions by promiscuous girls who simply don't have the time or effort to bring up a child. These are the majority of abortions, in my country at least.

I don’t agree with late term abortions either, but have you considered the welfare of the child born to a mother who is prepared to terminate her pregnancy even while she can feel its life beating in her womb? Is not the welfare of the child the most important thing? Is there not something fundamentally wrong with a woman prepared to carry out such a late term abortion because of time an effort? I would argue if anything such a woman shouldn’t be allowed to have a child. Such women should forfeit their own fertility.

a reply to: Bloodworth

So. You think that in 95 percent of the unwanted pregnancies the men are conning the women into having unprotected sex but its the women that are the problem???
I read an article the other day about some app that is available to women that helps monitor their own cycles so they can have a better idea as to when is a bad time to have sex. Much of the financing backing this app came from Catholic pro-life groups and the website that is used to promote the app has some not so factual information on It including Not so factual information as to the risks of hormonal birth control methods.
The fact is that close to 25 out of every 100 who believe their not so factual information and rely on this method of birth control will find themselves pregnant. And although there is some risks involved in the hormonal birth control to some members of our society it is far more effective than trying to guess when that small window of time when pregnancy occurs.
So while you men are busy talking the gals into having unprotected sex (according to your own post) and religious institutions are convincing them (lying to them) to avoid the most effective tools available to avoid pregnancy, women have been screwing with their hormone levels for over a half a century to avoid those big families of six or more kids that they or their parents remember growing up in. And you men are still baulking at the thought of using a rubber, still promoting pulling out as a birth control method, and rape and sexual abuse of children are still pretty much treated as a joke in the legal system.
But ya, it's the women that are the problem!!

We now have a few laws that have been passed on the state level that would ban just about all abortions that have no exception for rape or incest. Which means that the lawmakers that wrote them see no problem with forcing young girls who've been taken advantage of by sorry old pos men to have babies.
Isn't it time to just say no to sex? Give them what they've always claimed they wanted. How many times have we been told well of she doesn't want a kid she shouldn't have the sex? Well how about we give them a few years where only those women who want kids have sex and see just how low the birth rate in the country can go!!!

a reply to: OccamsRazor04

I’m not for abortion as means of birth control either, but there a some circumstances I think where it warranted such as with rape victims who should be given the choice.

The most important thing is the welfare of the child and there are some parents not fit to be so. If they are forced by law to raise children we can’t lay full responsibility with them.

I don’t see human life as having any more value than any other. Who are we to butcher and abuse other life forms while declaring are own sacred?

a reply to: surfer_soul
Rape is an interesting case. If a man rapes a woman, do we put his brother, or father in jail? Why or why not?

So you believe a human life is worth the same as that of a single cell bacteria? The same as a termite?