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Why can't we be greater?

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posted on Mar, 3 2005 @ 06:06 AM
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Many people will discard this thread and spit in the face of Tolerance calling it a liberal idea. What is tolerance? Tolerance is what we need to have to make ATS a great community.

When I first joined I always got sucked into the arguements and name calling. After getting into so much trouble bickering with individuals I have found that the MODS aren't out to get us. They really have a job to do and so do we.

Taking responsibility for our words is a must. Some may feel being polite to others is not something they have to do. But being tolerant is. If you have nothing nice to say, don't say it at all.

I am also realizing this faster and faster from the response I get from many a 'Proud Citizen of the USA' as my political ideology may greatly differ from theirs.

Isn't it odd that respectful posts that offer differing opinions are swated down with degrading and immature replies that may not actually break the T&C by nature but is directly implied.

We cannot let our dissapointment bring us down. We must stand up and promote a culture of Tolerance as well as red hot debate that is not sparing when it comes to finding out the truth.

Lincoln and Douglas once had strikingly bitter debates but did so in such a tolerant way there is a way of sitting in a chair called the Lincolnesque way. It's when the legs are not crossed and the arms are resting on the chair arms. This signifies that communication has no barriers and is ready to flow.

We need to have this type of open communication here, with out the nonsense insults and rhetoric that only serves to make one person feel better than the other.

Please support tolerance at ATS.

EDIT: Spelling, Title


[edit on 3-3-2005 by 00PS]




posted on Mar, 3 2005 @ 09:51 AM
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OOPS tries to enlighten us with ethics,


What is tolerance? Tolerance is what we need to have to make ATS a great community.
Yes and No. While i appreciate a well thought out and backed up post, and while i agree that some decorum makes for better communications,
I cant say that enforcing a P.C. attitude is what ATS is or should be for.

First of all, who's threshhold of tolerance are we going to use to set the standard?

Tolerance implies that there are things which are intolerable.
Why would it be ok to speak of one and not the other?

OOPS continues,


Taking responsibility for our words is a must.
Again i will agree with a but
We all need to choose our words more carefully, especially when making accusations or branding something nazi, genocide, murder and other things where a simple cut and past from the dictionary will show that someone is trying to use "sexy" terms to spice up or deepen the emotive reaction to reading them, but where the word used really isnt applicable.
BUT,
who is to decide that your word choice is responsible? How can this mandate be done? Heck untill the FCC and the courts can put a decent id onto "indecency" i think this is entirely interpretational.
This is why you precieve correctly the wide variety of posters take on things, because we are not all forced into some form of conformity (other than the basic tos restrictions, which i find EXTREMELY vauge and open to interpretation)
Variety is the spice of life.

OOPS says,


Isn't it odd that respectful posts that offer differing opinions are swated down with degrading and immature replies that may not actually break the T&C by nature but is directly implied.
I dont find it odd at all, i find it to be VERY human. I take personal pride as i know others do, in being capable of creating a verbal bitch slap that stays within the existing restrictions.

Dont hate us because were able to use language skills to reasonably politley call someone out for something we feel is really stupid.
SO WHAT? degradation and maturity are again floating situations depending on whom you ask. If no one could criticize anyone here this place wouldnt be as popular (or as good) as it is....if you want to read only views that you expouse...go to your favorite bias site and tank up....if you want honest and open communications where people arent going to sugar coat everything they say, come here.

My biggest objection to OOPS comes here,


We must stand up and promote a culture of Tolerance as well as red hot debate that is not sparing when it comes to finding out the truth.
WHY MUST WE BE TOLERANT OF EVERYTHING? Doing so not only destroys the unique perspectives that others have to offer, even hateful speech. (but not threats) But this also is chilling as poeple will then be too AFRAID to say what they really mean or want to. Restricting free speech (or as close as it is here now) is a form of thought control that despots have used for centuries to control you. Dont give up this human right so easily because you might have to read something thats unpleasent.

This idea that has been creeping around sounds like trying to homogenize everything into a big bland mass where opposing views will be SHUNNED not encouraged. How can you look at 2 posts and say one was ignorant and one was wise if you only ever get to see one style or the other?
I find this idea to smack of CENSORSHIP.

Open communications means that sometimes your going to hear something you dont approve of, something that is boarderline mean, and honestly THATS A GOOD THING! You must be a strong enough person to ALLOW yourself to be exposed to speech you dont approve of. If you dont, and say we must shield our eyes and ears and thoughts from disturbing ideas, how can you deny ignorance by LIMITING you access to ideas instead of embracing them?

OOPS says we need communications,


with out the nonsense insults and rhetoric that only serves to make one person feel better than the other.
HOW BOORING WOULD THIS BE?
Lets touch for a moment on the idea that someone feels better over someone else.....GOOD! We NEED to be able to call a crook a crook, a perv a perv, a tyrant a tyrant.....we need to be able to express disdane for others...otherwise how will they or YOU learn that your or their ideas seem to be comming from outer space when compared to the ideas expressed by others?

I am not saying to just be rude to each other here, and we've all seen one line punch and run posts that really offer nothing to the discussion...BIG DEAL...just let them speak thier feeble minds and continue the discussions topic.
Why try and impose PRIOR RESTRAINT on speech and communications?

I have raised the issue of free speech here before, and Im still amazed at how many other rights people will fight for but yet soo many are ready to hide from words that are strong. Your basically advocating an endorcement for censorship.

Now before the ban hammer toting S.O. or some other MOD comes in here to reiterate for us the "we own your speech rights here on this private forum, comply or leave or risk getting banned" speech again....
WE KNOW, those of us that ask questions about free speech issues are VERY concerned that because nearly ALL of the widespread media outlets for free speech are owned by someone..that free speech is already effectivly gone.

Some Mods ive spoken and bantered this idea with i think understand my point when i continually challenge them and members here to do MORE to improve free speech not less.

I find restrictions of expression to be DEVICIVE because ask 10 people if they read something and they were offended and youll likley get at least 3 different answers from ther group as to if it was or wasnt.
Trying to tell someone, dont come here to post because we've determined your speech is offensive is no less discrimination than calling them a stupid ethnic slur to begin with.

As this is an international site, language skills vary wildly, how can one set of speech restrictions fit all communication capasity?

There are just too many unanswered questions for me to support MORE restrictions on speech, tone, style, word choice, level of communication ability, intent of messags as opposed to interpretation by the viewer...etc etc etc.....

Grow a thicker skin,
sticks and stones remember?


[edit on 3-3-2005 by CazMedia]

[edit on 3-3-2005 by CazMedia]



posted on Mar, 3 2005 @ 10:06 AM
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The terms and conditions are pretty good as they are right now I think.

Out side of the board the whole world needs to be more tolerant. How can we have peace with out tolerating our differences? Everyone has an opinion and everyone is different. Some people want peace while others want war. It seems to me like those who want peace have to be tolerant of those who want war.
The only thing that really bothers me is reading someones post saying that *this group* of people need to be killed. I've seen it lots on here. The Jew need to be killed. The gays need to be killed. The Iranians need to be killed. The Canadians need to be killed. Murder Murder Murder. It drives me nuts. Sure freedom of speech is important but do we need to spread the message of murder?

Live by the sword die by the sword.



posted on Mar, 3 2005 @ 10:12 AM
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CazMedia I am going to respond to your post in a bit.

I just don't understand. If I can't call someone a d#@k head to his face why can they be rude back to me. While I hold my insults and bitter tongue back, they find a sweet yet insultingly way to degrade me.

This isn't good. And all for someone trying to express their ideas to get feedback from others and come to an understanding of others perspectives.

You wrote a lot, I'm going to give it the time to read it and think about it and respond to what I can.

EDIT: Don't want to get a warn so I made the bad word look better

[edit on 3-3-2005 by 00PS]



posted on Mar, 3 2005 @ 10:58 AM
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Umbrax,
I agree that people in general need to be more tolerant, yet to do so we must tolerate the intolerable. All tolerance has its limits tho, weather we know where they are or not...people DO reach that point where they MUST ACT. (VERBALLY IN THIS CASE)

Society, cultures, even this private "privlege to be here" site has the right to set up its rules however, and thats where tolorance ends. People need to understand that overall when these boundaries are hit, you should respect them (the boundary) NOT because you owe it to them, but because you owe it to YOURSELF to show behaivior that is intelligent, rational, decent and humane. Dont restrict EVERYONE because some people cant or choose to not hold those same values. There are KEY times to try and use some "power words/phrases", but to just constantly spew it weakens your "voice", no one will listen to babble. You make your own speech more or less valuable by communicating in the way you do. Why sanction others because some people choose to waste this gift.

OOPS,
cool, im honored your taking time considering my words.
Take your time.

OOPS seeks wizdom,


If I can't call someone a dick head to his face why can they be rude back to me. While I hold my insults and bitter tongue back, they find a sweet yet insultingly way to degrade me.
Because that is where the people that own the speech rights you gave up to be here say so. I dont like that any more than you do on the issue of speech. I was dissapointed at the verbal and ideological crack downs and divisions that happened to ATS with the disolving of the MudPit, the segregation of politics from the main ATS site, (tho they did a good job with seperate but equal
), and the newer cant call a dick a dick censorship, eerr ahh i mean community standards here. I understand and accept this as part of my willingness to be included. Trust me, i want to verbally go off on some posts all the time, i want to yell asswipe as loud as i can sometimes around here but can only get away with it in this context as im discussing language and not calling someone a bad name (cry cry). Much in the same way you used the term dick head...it wasnt an attatk and part of a legitimate discussion of speech issues. (COOL i just got to use naughty language)

I was dissapointed because i discovered this most excellent and wounderous place where lots of good topic and open thinking was happening, and i found there were limits to that openness being imposed upon me. It was self delusional for me to think deny ignorance meant in speech rights too eh? Perhaps my excitment found here blinded me to the trap i accuse the young and liberals around here with...believing that there are no rules/boundaries in life. That anything that can be done, should be done. My god im no better than them!! Im a closet liberal!!!!! ahhhh


Still i will stand in this forum and defy the peace here by challenging the powers that be here on ATS******boards to LIGHTEN UP! Stop trying to be such intellectual elietists and free our minds to deny ignorance by freeing our communications!
Viva le MudPit!
Wash my mouth out for speaking French!

As far as the insideous ways people (like me) find to hit people with barbs....GOOD, were learning and showing by example new ways of textual phrasing, using old words and making new ones! Communications can be dynamic and demanding! They should be....the restraint is yours as a person to have, not to be imposed upon you.

Now people can be downright mean, well...thats one of those inescapable boundaries of life i mentioned before.....We should try NOT to be unless it is used as a spice...as emphasis, not just casually, to just blather with because your too dumb to create a higher sentance structure.

Besides much like the free market, speech will limit itself.....
i mean that the more wild and outlandish the speech, generally the LESS creedence people are going to give it....spew hate, spew devicive rhetoric or truths for that matter....your speech will be valued or not based both on what you say AND how you say it.
Again this is a reason to NOT restrict speech.....if you talk trash, thats what your talk is worth....if you speak well and well of others...people will at least listen more, if not actually HEAR your message and accept it. Your speech value just soared!

Ill let you catch up.



posted on Mar, 3 2005 @ 11:07 AM
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Reply to your first thread...second one coming





cant say that enforcing a P.C. attitude is what ATS is or should be for.

- we don't choose, it's a private forum. But I wish we could choose.


Heck untill the FCC and the courts can put a decent id onto "indecency" i think this is entirely interpretational.

- which makes the system of enforcement all the more biased too


WHY MUST WE BE TOLERANT OF EVERYTHING? Doing so not only destroys the unique perspectives that others have to offer, even hateful speech. (but not threats) But this also is chilling as poeple will then be too AFRAID to say what they really mean or want to. Restricting free speech (or as close as it is here now) is a form of thought control that despots have used for centuries to control you. Dont give up this human right so easily because you might have to read something thats unpleasent.


Because I have to tolerate the T&C everyone else should too! That's what I mean



posted on Mar, 3 2005 @ 12:00 PM
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Oops cuts loose and says what he means.....


Because I have to tolerate the T&C everyone else should too!
Yeah me too, lifes a bitch!
BUT,
so DONT!! Rebel Now!!! Ill do it if you do!!!
Take the hit, get the warn, lose the points, and try and chill till it goes away....Dont get too many too fast or your going out!
youve got a warn now MORON! So you live and learn.
(theyre i rioted first! Not bad for an old conservative eh?)
(didnt mean to call you a name but the f-ing word filter wouldnt let me get my warn for willfull disobediance now)

Using your speech in limited fashion like this, to make key points, even if you suffer for it, CAN add emphasis, but too much sours your message.
You still can type in hostile or t+c violations...just accept responsabillity for your actions. I was really ripping threads on the boardeline for a while, and only got a warn or 2 max....we all let too much emotion go into our communications from time to time. I talked to a few members but didnt openly vent too much, and a few Mods were helpful for guidance.
All this said, in no way do i recind my former challenge to ATS on speech issues, or to members to write better post themselves before criticizing and restricting others! Those with perfect prose can cast the first stone.

Oops concerns with the lack of a defintion for indecency


which makes the system of enforcement all the more biased too
Both from the government as well as here on good ole ATS....
Just think, you, me, every member here is willing to sell out free speech rights to participate here...rights many of us claim we'd NEVER let the gov take from us. But we'd allow a private entity (person, corp, business) to do this to us?? This is what IM TALKIN ABOUT!

WHY arent we more concerned with citizen rights to free speech on the internet some people think is ssoooo free.
Because someone owns a site or a whole server....they can restrict, monitor, deny, and say what you can and cant do with your medium.
This country has barely come up with some minor internet laws/rights for citizens, who can do what with our info, what info can they get and cant they...how do you know who has what info where on you...can you even access the info they own about you?
Soo many more questions about your information and rights to communicate exist,
and yet
we easily look away from free speech as if it isnt important. Its our FIRST civil right.
How will the people ever REALLY be able to say "have their own website" or at this tech level in human history...have our voice heard, if some other entity can remove your 1rst amendment rights because they own your soapbox, or your way onto the internet?

It seems soo easy to be here on ATS doesnt it? We all come here to disagree and seek new ideas and facts, and we must enjoy doing it or else why would we come? Yet what did you give up to share ideas in this way?
Its all nice until big brother finishes up locking us out of more than person to person, hand note to hand communications. Crippling millions in their abillity to resist being dominated by any entity, government or corporation.
This is a conspiracy site right?

Well this IS your first freedom were talking about here.
I am NOT condemming ATS for being in its place in the sceme of things and having their polices.....I just saw that superhero guy and read all the cool stuff and thought there MIGHT be a champion amongst us to embrace true free communications thus denying ignorance.
BUT
at some point, some how, there needs to be "public internet", an open medium, like public TV, or SOME kind of way to allow the average citizen to be able to use modern tech to communicate freely without too much regulation. FREE preferably so that economics dont discriminate with this right. So that ALL have a chance to communicate or not....weather people like what you express or not.
because the way i see media consolidations going...the internet might look endless, but someone owns ALL the gates and roadways there, so you mr citizen have NO rights here. We own your speech rights.
get my point?

[edit on 3-3-2005 by CazMedia]

[edit on 3-3-2005 by CazMedia]



posted on Mar, 3 2005 @ 01:06 PM
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I guess if someone wanted free speech online...they could go and make their own website and have all the free speech they wanted...



posted on Mar, 4 2005 @ 01:50 AM
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Welcome alien,
So are you advocating that free speech is only a right if you can afford it?
Pay to Play instead of a right for citizens?

And not trying to pick a fight with you, but this attitude of "go buy your own speech" is comming from someone in a position of power here to limit those he says must pay to speak....I got mine now you get yours eh?

free Speech: Privilage of the elite?

Unless i owned the server AND the transmission lines and uplink to the internet, there would be NO WAY for me to be sure someone woulndt force their censhorship upon me because they owned a portion of my abillity to get my messege out. If i as an avg citizen, make a website of my own, and my service provider doenst think i should be posting something they click a mouse and BOOM im effectivly speechless, even if i do pay to play.
Your site can be filtered out by search engines, and software made to keep kids safe could also include your site on their (who are they) list of things to be filtered out. Again, so many ways that free speech can be violated, yet no one seems interested in protecting themselves about it.



posted on Mar, 4 2005 @ 03:26 AM
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Tolerance is cowardice.

It is the inabillity to accept responsiblty for your own thoughts and ideas.
I know everytime I post a thread critisizing a Mod, Or calling someone out on thier ignorance I am taking the risk of a warn or a ban. Such is life. This is a private site and as such the owners have every right to censor my words, penalise me with a warn, or ban my presence. However I have the responsbility to be true to myself and what I believe, if it gets me banned so be it. I have no control over the actions of the mods or anyone else, however they have no control over mine either. The only thing they can control is thier response to me.

Just as you Oops can not control anything other than your own reacton to anothers post, you whinge that you are being treated meanly, that you are offended by some words, however you fail to realise that you choose whether or not to allow yourself to be offended

When I posted a thread critisizing a Mod last night, I did so because I saw what I chose to interpert as a mod abusing thier responsibilty, Whether I was correct in my interpertation or not is up for debate, However the simple fact is I chose to make an issue of it, I chose to post a thread about, and had I been banned for doing so I would have accepted it as the consequences of my own actions.
That being said I also would have felt it worth it, for in my mind it is better to lose something while standing on principle than to gain the world lieing on you back.

You have stated that you started this thread due t me Oops, I am proud of that. I see you as a whiner, who is unable to tell the differece between a personal insult/attack, and a legitmate observation, whther that is true or not can not say, but to say that I seeyou that way is no insult. Just as when others say they see me as someone filled with hate is not an insult merley thier opinion. I choose not to allow thier opinion of me to bother me Oops, becuase I know myself better than they ever could. I don't care when people imply that I am nazi, becuase I know I am not.

You are going to find Oops, that if peoples opinion of you causes you this much distress, that you will have a very difficult time making your way in this world.


As to the question of whther or not we should even attempt to avoid causing offense, well IMHO, no we shouldn't.
For one it is a lost cause as no matter what you say you will invariably offend someone, furthermore it is, in my experience, only when someone is offended, inflamed, and impassoned that you get thier best from them, whether it be thier best argument, or the best understanding of who they really are. We are shown who we are and what we stand for when our emotions run the highest, the measure of a man is not taken when he is calm but when he is tested.
That is not to say we should go out of our way to offend others, but neither should we attempt to avoid it.

I have no doubt that there are many on this board who percieve me as arrogant, ignorant, hateful, misinformed, stupid, prejudiced, bigoted, or whatever epitah they wish to send my way, but I honestly dont care. I am not one of these weak willed little children who needs others approval, and outside validation to feel good about myself, my valdation comes from within, where does yours come from Oops? Does it come from others tellng you they agree with you, from others being nice to you? Do you need others to validate yourself for you?

Why do you care what an anonymous person on a website thinks of you? How does my or anyones else opinion of you affect you unless you allow it to?

Rant, Marg6043, Lady V, spliff 4020, Uk wzard, all of these people think I am hateful, yet I dont let it worry me, why do you?

If I allowed my self worth to be determined by others as you seem to I would be greatly upset by these charactersations of me, I dont, and I'm not.

The simple fact is due to the nature of this board, everyone is going to offend someone else given enough time. If not by thier opnion of others than by thier thoeries. So what?

I think the real problem isn't people acting in a less than civil manner, the problem is that many people here read more into posts than is written.
As an example I submit the fourth line of my signature.
Many have either publically or privately informed me that that line is intolerant, or hateful, others have stated I am a bigot, or prejudiced, becuase I hate muslims.
The ine in queston is,



Islam is the tool of the devil, and muhhamed is a false prophet

Now, many have read this line and interperted it to mean that I hate muslims, however it des not say that. It does express contempt for Muhhammad, and Islam, however to read into that a hate against muslims is to read more into that line than was actually written.
The truth is I have nothing against Muslims, I feel sorry for them becuase I feel they have been mislead into worshipping the devil in dsguise. I feel that Muhammad, by IMO perveting the message of God, has mislead millions over the last several centuries into rejecting the true way of the lord. mpray for muslims to see that they have been mislead and to reject islam, but I do not hate them any more than I hate those children who were drafted nto the "hitler youth" Just as they were corrupted by the twisted teachings of the Nazi party I feel muslims have been led astray by the flse prophet muhammad. However that does not detract from thier faith, it is just as strong as my own, merley IMO misdirected.

You started this thread because in another I told you that I felt your reading comprehension skills were lacking, and you felt by saying so was demeaning you, I was not. I was simply making an observation based on observed evdence, just as I would (and have) question the reading comprehenson skills of anyone who looks at my sig and states that I hate muslims as a result.

I can't count the number of times I have seen this type of thing happen, charges of personal attacks leveled at those who did nothng more than offer thier opinion on someones, experience, education, skills intelligence etc.

However there is a major dfference between calling someone an idiot, and saying that they lack the exerience, knowlegde, skills etc. to understand an Issue.
I can not under the T&C of this site call you an uneducated moron, I can however state that you fail to demonstrate knowledge of x or have failed to demonstrate proficiency in skill y.
I can say that you fail to demonstrate an understanding of subject a or that your show yurself to be gnorant of subject B, none of which is either an insult or a personal attack.



posted on Mar, 4 2005 @ 03:57 AM
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It's because a lot of people on this board OOPS (and in the world) have never learnt to tolerate other people's views and ideologies. They see the world as a place of good vs evil, right and wrong, black and white, there are no grey areas and they don't seem capable of understanding that they mightn't always be the good guys.

It's really sad but it's a fact we have to put up with and deal with. I agree a little more tolerance for eachother would go a long way, not only on ATS but in the whole world.

thanks,
drfunk



posted on Mar, 4 2005 @ 04:48 AM
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Good luck oops


I tryed to help with my idea and got the worse end of a crap sandwich......



posted on Mar, 4 2005 @ 05:23 AM
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First off mwm1331 the post you just posted seemed one of the most level headed you have ever made. However I think you are just trying to cover your behind.

I'm calling you out as well as many other people. The problem with you is that many other people are just immature and spout things out in the passion and quickenss of not thinking. You actually think what you are saying and mean it too.


I can't count the number of times I have seen this type of thing happen, charges of personal attacks leveled at those who did nothng more than offer thier opinion on someones, experience, education, skills intelligence etc.


These personal attacks that you talk about are made by many at ATS. In the T&C it says not to attack members. Sometimes humour can be seen as attacks but in these cases it's not. It's the truly thought about and posted comments on another person's "experience, education, skills & intelligence." What could you really understand about these things a person has from a posting. None, and that's why I say we need more tolerance from members. Tolerance of the T&C, Tolerance of other people's views even if you don't know who they are or where they come from and where they might be from. (This tolerance means don't personally attack them for something they believe that you just don't understand or disagree with.)



posted on Mar, 4 2005 @ 05:29 AM
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oops



You and I know what you are trying to do is not going to bring any solution.
If anything your going to end up alienated before you get one person to understand even part of the tolerence thing and community and family , dont bring up those words either they bite you in the butt every time.



posted on Mar, 4 2005 @ 05:31 AM
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Oops I dont need to know about your education, experience, intellgence etc. To state that you failed to demonstate basic reading comprehension and tolerance has nothng to do with it.
If state that Murderers are criminals who deserve the death penalty and you post a reply stating that you dont feel all crminals deserve death, I dont have to know a damn thing about you to know you misinterperted what wrote.
If I state that islam is a false religon, and you reply that I hate muslims I dont need to know a damn thing about your experience age education etc. to see that you read more into my statement thn I actually wrote.
Neither of those statement s would qualify as a personal attack and that is what you seem not to understand, can crtsze you without attacking you and if you can not tell the difference then am well justified in callng you ignorant.

So stop whining nd grow up.
Dont want me to "degrade" your reading skills? Then dont misinterpert or read more into what I write than is actually stated.



posted on Mar, 4 2005 @ 05:41 AM
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Show a little bit of tolerance towards Mwm1311 guys


anyways about your signature Mwm1311 : does god love me as much as an american?

thanks,
drfunk



posted on Mar, 4 2005 @ 05:42 AM
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I would assume so drfunk.
Why do you ask.



posted on Mar, 4 2005 @ 05:45 AM
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I mean afterall he loves you so much he sent his son to die for you.



posted on Mar, 4 2005 @ 05:45 AM
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Well why would Americans be chosen over me if he loves me just as much? I know America is a very lucky country but I don't think that he would like someone better than me coz they are american.

thanks,
drfunk



posted on Mar, 4 2005 @ 05:48 AM
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Originally posted by drfunk
Well why would Americans be chosen over me if he loves me just as much? I know America is a very lucky country but I don't think that he would like someone better than me coz they are american.

thanks,
drfunk


Well thats the thing DRfunk I believe Americans have been chosen by god, for many reasons, to lead the world in a way consitant wth his teachings. I believe he inspired the writing of the US constitution to ensure a powerful government which allthough not technically based on christianity, is one whos core principles are drectly in line wth the teachings of his son. Chosen is not the same as most beloved, We were not chosen for greater privaleges, nor were we chosen to be exalted above others we were chosen to acept the burden of greater responsibilty.

[edit on 4-3-2005 by mwm1331]




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