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Did he really die for our sins

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posted on May, 24 2019 @ 04:59 AM
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a reply to: EmmanuelGoldstein

I'm pretty sure God knew exactly what was going to happen to the apple in the garden with a naked woman prancing about.




posted on May, 24 2019 @ 05:02 AM
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originally posted by: DISRAELI
a reply to: dfnj2015
In the teaching of the New Testament, it is the act of self-offering that matters. I've argued this issue through before, so I won't repeat it all in detail- Christ died for the ungodly. No, try this one- Lo, I come to do thy will, O God

It seems a little silly for us to try re-writing the rules about how salvation ought to work.
The question is whether what happened is enough to satisfy God, right? And if God thinks it is, who are we to quibble and say that he's wrong to be satisfied? It's like refusing a gift at Christmas- "Wait a minute, Dad, I want to look at your bank statement, because I'm not sure you can afford to give me that car".


I kind of think God is infinitely whole and complete with no desires or needs. So the idea "is enough to satisfy God" seems irrelevant. God is perfect and whole and needs absolutely nothing from us. What seems silly to me is people inventing God's imaginary needs with regards to salvation.

I tend to lean towards having faith in a God of unconditional love who saves everyone regardless of our sins.



posted on May, 24 2019 @ 05:26 AM
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originally posted by: dfnj2015
I tend to lean towards having faith in a God of unconditional love who saves everyone regardless of our sins.

Of course that's a different religious system from the one outilned in the Bible. I'm not going to get into arguments about which system is better- I only discuss the Biblical system within its own terms.

But the standpoint you've just adopted makes the whole premise of this thread absurd.
If you don't think the death of Christ was necessary, why bother disputing whether he died? From your viewpoint, it mst be irrelevant.
Those who accept the Biblical statement that it was necessary also accept the Biblical statement that it happened, to the full extent that it needed to happen, so there isn't any stumbling-block within the premises of Biblical theology.




edit on 24-5-2019 by DISRAELI because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 24 2019 @ 05:29 AM
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Did he really die for our sins


If your father murdered your mother, do you think the law courts would also rule you a murderer as well. Of cause not. Neither would God. So inheritance of sin from Adam and Eve is absurd.

Adam and Eve is not a literal story of man and woman that lived a garden. It is full of symbolism. Adam (male) our spiritual nature, made in Gods image, remains in perfection, Whereas Eve (female), our earthly materialistic image, ruled by the snake (our egoistic mind), is far from perfect.

Whilst we continue to be ruled by the snake we will continue to be condemned to experience death.
edit on 24-5-2019 by glend because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 24 2019 @ 06:09 AM
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originally posted by: dfnj2015

originally posted by: DISRAELI
a reply to: dfnj2015
In the teaching of the New Testament, it is the act of self-offering that matters. I've argued this issue through before, so I won't repeat it all in detail- Christ died for the ungodly. No, try this one- Lo, I come to do thy will, O God

It seems a little silly for us to try re-writing the rules about how salvation ought to work.
The question is whether what happened is enough to satisfy God, right? And if God thinks it is, who are we to quibble and say that he's wrong to be satisfied? It's like refusing a gift at Christmas- "Wait a minute, Dad, I want to look at your bank statement, because I'm not sure you can afford to give me that car".


I kind of think God is infinitely whole and complete with no desires or needs. So the idea "is enough to satisfy God" seems irrelevant. God is perfect and whole and needs absolutely nothing from us. What seems silly to me is people inventing God's imaginary needs with regards to salvation.

I tend to lean towards having faith in a God of unconditional love who saves everyone regardless of our sins.


That’s awesome but
God created humanity for relationship, for someone to love and be in relationship with.
God calls us His bride

But believe what you want


Additionally how can God save everyone, what if others don’t want salvation, don’t want to be with God, it’s a choice
God is love, love allows free choice not forced conversion.
edit on 24-5-2019 by Raggedyman because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 24 2019 @ 08:24 AM
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originally posted by: Raggedyman

originally posted by: Klassified
a reply to: dfnj2015
"Did he really die for our sins?"
No more than those who died for humankinds sins before him, like...

Prometheus - Circa 800BC

Lo! streaming from the fatal tree
His all atoning blood,
Is this the Infinite?—Yes, ’tis he,
Prometheus, and a god!
Well might the sun in darkness hide,
And veil his glories in,
When God, the great Prometheus, died
For man the creature’s sin.


Tammuz - Circa 400BC?

Trust, ye saints,
your Lord restored,
Trust ye in your risen Lord;
For the pains which Tammuz endured
Our salvation have procured.


Quoted from here.





Are you sure Klass
Are you sure you understand what is written

www.tektonics.org...
Not much really, I can go on, but I shouldn’t need to

Although you missed the point of my post completely, I do appreciate the link. I have been looking at some new(to me) evidence FOR the existence of Christ that has come to my attention, because unlike most Christians, I don't shy away from new evidence that doen't agree with my present understanding.

The point by the way, is that Jesus is only one in a long line of "saviors" that predate him. The point is NOT parallels. Every culture puts their own twist on their gods. And yes, I understood quite well what I read.



posted on May, 24 2019 @ 08:28 AM
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originally posted by: KansasGirl

originally posted by: BlueJacket
a reply to: dfnj2015

We always said no blood, no foul...so in that context, he seemed to of bled a lot.

Now Im a tad agnostic these days, I guess I need to have the "did a fellow named Jesus exist" conversation 1st.


Bart Ehrman, an atheist New Testament scholar, says that it's "ridiculous" to claim that Jesus of Nazareth didn't exist. The evidence for his existence, both internal in the New Testament AND external sources, are better than any evidence we have for other ancient people. He says there are 11 valid references for his existence. He compares it to Plato or maybe Alexander the Great, for which there are only 2.

He also argues that the Resurrection happened as well.

Again- he's an atheist, but he argues FOR the existence of Jesus of Nazareth and even for his death and resurrection.

I would like to see some links for your claim that Ehrman believes the resurrection please. I don't believe Bart is that gullible, but I'm willing to listen to his reasoning if he has indeed said that.



posted on May, 24 2019 @ 09:01 AM
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a reply to: dfnj2015

This would have to be an extremely long conversation starting with what we actually are. We aren't the bodies we inhabit. We are the immortal soul, think the frequency of energy or bodies generate.

So what was Jesus? He was the Christ spirit in a human body. When the human body of Christ died, it released the Christ spirit to humanity.

Christ was still Christ and neither the Christ spirit not our own can ever be destroyed so he can be resurrected just as we will be.

The point of the body death of Christ was to release access by humanity to the Christ spirit, so now we can take the Christ spirit into our hearts and have his perfection imprint on our souls so that God can accept us also as perfect.

That's the short answer,although it would take a lot more explanation for the long answer.

Jaden



posted on May, 24 2019 @ 09:39 AM
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a reply to: dfnj2015

I can easily see you are not a Christian and you do not believe in Jesus based upon your question of "IF"

Christians do no think IF he died but know he died through the teachings of the Apostles and other disciples of Christ.

You are not baptized in Holy fire by the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

How many ATS stars do you need to stay out of hell?



posted on May, 24 2019 @ 09:45 AM
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a reply to: Raggedyman

Hi Raggedyman,




Additionally how can God save everyone, what if others don’t want salvation, don’t want to be with God, it’s a choice God is love, love allows free choice not forced conversion.


I agree with your statement above. Lets take a look in the book of Genesis where God speaks to the serpent after the fall of Adam and Eve. It is clear there are children of God and also children of the serpent. So not everyone on this planet is a child of God. Those who blaspheme God and reject him and his son are not children of God.



posted on May, 24 2019 @ 10:13 AM
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a reply to: Klassified


"Belief in the resurrection is a theological assertion.

It is not, and cannot be, based on historical proof." — at 14:23.



posted on May, 24 2019 @ 10:38 AM
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originally posted by: DeathSlayer
a reply to: Raggedyman

Hi Raggedyman,




Additionally how can God save everyone, what if others don’t want salvation, don’t want to be with God, it’s a choice God is love, love allows free choice not forced conversion.


I agree with your statement above. Lets take a look in the book of Genesis where God speaks to the serpent after the fall of Adam and Eve. It is clear there are children of God and also children of the serpent. So not everyone on this planet is a child of God. Those who blaspheme God and reject him and his son are not children of God.


I know it’s pedantic but
We all, even those who reject Jesus are His children and it breaks His heart that they don’t want a relationship
The serpent has no children just followers



posted on May, 24 2019 @ 10:47 AM
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originally posted by: Klassified

originally posted by: Raggedyman

originally posted by: Klassified
a reply to: dfnj2015
"Did he really die for our sins?"
No more than those who died for humankinds sins before him, like...

Prometheus - Circa 800BC

Lo! streaming from the fatal tree
His all atoning blood,
Is this the Infinite?—Yes, ’tis he,
Prometheus, and a god!
Well might the sun in darkness hide,
And veil his glories in,
When God, the great Prometheus, died
For man the creature’s sin.


Tammuz - Circa 400BC?

Trust, ye saints,
your Lord restored,
Trust ye in your risen Lord;
For the pains which Tammuz endured
Our salvation have procured.


Quoted from here.





Are you sure Klass
Are you sure you understand what is written

www.tektonics.org...
Not much really, I can go on, but I shouldn’t need to

Although you missed the point of my post completely, I do appreciate the link. I have been looking at some new(to me) evidence FOR the existence of Christ that has come to my attention, because unlike most Christians, I don't shy away from new evidence that doen't agree with my present understanding.

The point by the way, is that Jesus is only one in a long line of "saviors" that predate him. The point is NOT parallels. Every culture puts their own twist on their gods. And yes, I understood quite well what I read.


Jesus is not in a long line of saviours, He was unique
Incredibly unique and still is, hence your absolute hate for everything christian.

I don’t shy away from evidence, clearly I am a unique person just like you? So what?
Prove something, anything

You havnt offered anything that would suggest Jesus was a cookie cutter deity copied from other beliefs
You have insinuated such but offered nothing
To much Zeitgeist for you Mr Klass, prove otherwise



posted on May, 24 2019 @ 10:59 AM
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a reply to: DeathSlayer



How many ATS stars do you need to stay out of hell?

That depends on what the heck hell is.

Some people think of the underworld as a place, wherein they are slowly forgotten by their friends and relatives.

Perhaps hell is what's left after all memory of us has faded away.

Stars on ATS may count for something more than we may know.
edit on 24-5-2019 by pthena because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 24 2019 @ 11:50 AM
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a reply to: pthena



"Belief in the resurrection is a theological assertion.
It is not, and cannot be, based on historical proof." — at 14:23.

Exactly. Thank you.

I have never known Ehrman to say he believes in the resurrection as KansasGirl claims.



posted on May, 24 2019 @ 12:02 PM
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originally posted by: Raggedyman

originally posted by: Klassified

originally posted by: Raggedyman

originally posted by: Klassified
a reply to: dfnj2015
"Did he really die for our sins?"
No more than those who died for humankinds sins before him, like...

Prometheus - Circa 800BC

Lo! streaming from the fatal tree
His all atoning blood,
Is this the Infinite?—Yes, ’tis he,
Prometheus, and a god!
Well might the sun in darkness hide,
And veil his glories in,
When God, the great Prometheus, died
For man the creature’s sin.


Tammuz - Circa 400BC?

Trust, ye saints,
your Lord restored,
Trust ye in your risen Lord;
For the pains which Tammuz endured
Our salvation have procured.


Quoted from here.





Are you sure Klass
Are you sure you understand what is written

www.tektonics.org...
Not much really, I can go on, but I shouldn’t need to

Although you missed the point of my post completely, I do appreciate the link. I have been looking at some new(to me) evidence FOR the existence of Christ that has come to my attention, because unlike most Christians, I don't shy away from new evidence that doen't agree with my present understanding.

The point by the way, is that Jesus is only one in a long line of "saviors" that predate him. The point is NOT parallels. Every culture puts their own twist on their gods. And yes, I understood quite well what I read.


Jesus is not in a long line of saviours, He was unique
Incredibly unique and still is, hence your absolute hate for everything christian.

I don’t shy away from evidence, clearly I am a unique person just like you? So what?
Prove something, anything

You havnt offered anything that would suggest Jesus was a cookie cutter deity copied from other beliefs
You have insinuated such but offered nothing
To much Zeitgeist for you Mr Klass, prove otherwise

It has always been, and is, up to the Christian to prove their assertions. Something they have never been able to do. It is not up to the non-believer to prove a negative. Not that it would be received anyway. In the face of a complete lack of evidence, the logical stance is one of disbelief.

The only thing unique about Jesus is a different take on an old story, that humans need salvation. They don't. Especially from the same "god" that is responsible for their supposed sinful state in the first place.



posted on May, 24 2019 @ 12:17 PM
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originally posted by: Klassified

originally posted by: Raggedyman

originally posted by: Klassified

originally posted by: Raggedyman

originally posted by: Klassified
a reply to: dfnj2015
"Did he really die for our sins?"
No more than those who died for humankinds sins before him, like...

Prometheus - Circa 800BC

Lo! streaming from the fatal tree
His all atoning blood,
Is this the Infinite?—Yes, ’tis he,
Prometheus, and a god!
Well might the sun in darkness hide,
And veil his glories in,
When God, the great Prometheus, died
For man the creature’s sin.


Tammuz - Circa 400BC?

Trust, ye saints,
your Lord restored,
Trust ye in your risen Lord;
For the pains which Tammuz endured
Our salvation have procured.


Quoted from here.





Are you sure Klass
Are you sure you understand what is written

www.tektonics.org...
Not much really, I can go on, but I shouldn’t need to

Although you missed the point of my post completely, I do appreciate the link. I have been looking at some new(to me) evidence FOR the existence of Christ that has come to my attention, because unlike most Christians, I don't shy away from new evidence that doen't agree with my present understanding.

The point by the way, is that Jesus is only one in a long line of "saviors" that predate him. The point is NOT parallels. Every culture puts their own twist on their gods. And yes, I understood quite well what I read.


Jesus is not in a long line of saviours, He was unique
Incredibly unique and still is, hence your absolute hate for everything christian.

I don’t shy away from evidence, clearly I am a unique person just like you? So what?
Prove something, anything

You havnt offered anything that would suggest Jesus was a cookie cutter deity copied from other beliefs
You have insinuated such but offered nothing
To much Zeitgeist for you Mr Klass, prove otherwise

It has always been, and is, up to the Christian to prove their assertions. Something they have never been able to do. It is not up to the non-believer to prove a negative. Not that it would be received anyway. In the face of a complete lack of evidence, the logical stance is one of disbelief.

The only thing unique about Jesus is a different take on an old story, that humans need salvation. They don't. Especially from the same "god" that is responsible for their supposed sinful state in the first place.


BRILLIANT, you have taken my argument against evolution and the claim evolution a science and used it against me in relation to my FAITH, pure brilliance, but
What an utter failure

Christianity is a faith

I asked if you could leave your pop culture zitgeist aside and prove that the other "saviors" we're anything like Jesus, nothing, echo, empty, zero, zip, Klass, what have you got?

Alternatively, you have made a statement that Jesus is like other pre existing saviors, was a copy of others. You have made that statement, then PROVE IT

Come on Klass I thought you were smarter than this, I really did, you are letting me down.
Do you know the story of Mr Ballony and his son, search it on google
edit on 24-5-2019 by Raggedyman because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 24 2019 @ 01:39 PM
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a reply to: Klassified



The only thing unique about Jesus is a different take on an old story, that humans need salvation. They don't. Especially from the same "god" that is responsible for their supposed sinful state in the first place.

I think that the "different take" began to come into place around the 400s B.C. drawing upon Pythagoras and his theories on "transmigration of the immortal soul." That's where Plato got the idea of immortal soul from. It wasn't deduced through logic or observation, but rather accepted as a priori authority.

Then the mystery cults.

Back in the old ways of the old days, the savior gods saved other gods or titans as part of origin myths. The new-fangled mystery cults introduced the idea that a savior god could also save the immortal soul of initiated members.

A big question remains: Was the Jesus Cult intended to be a secret mystery for the select few, or was it intended to be a public religion, suitable for common consumption? Something that society as a whole could celebrate as foundational for harmonious living.

Is it all about life and living and eating and building and sharing in community; or is it all about the condition of the dead and what happens to the "immortal soul"?

This, to me, would seem a fitting paradoxical question worth exploring.

So the really, really big question is: Is there any merit to the notion that individual human beings possess an immortal soul such that the unique individual may some day, some how, be restored intact with all memory and experience and learning and wisdom complete?

That seems to be the premise that underlies the whole "who will or will not be saved" question. Does that "salvation" even exist as a possibility?

edit on 24-5-2019 by pthena because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 24 2019 @ 04:41 PM
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originally posted by: LABTECH767
a reply to: dfnj2015

Not going to try to convince you but just think about this.

There have been many account's of people whom have just died - sometime's not even died but come very close indeed to death whom have been seen thousands of miles away back home, usually it is neighbors that see them and wave, the person sometime's smiles and sometime's waves back but never - or very seldom speak's, they are seen going toward there home.

The people at the home hear a knock but when they open the door there is no one there, some time later the meet receive news that there loved one - son in this case - was killed on the battlefield and in this case it was north Africa were the lad died during WW2, the neighbor some time later asked the mother about her son whom she had seen walking up to the house only to be met with a strange look from the grieving parent whom can not believe what they are hearing, there son is dead and on the very day he died there neighbor saw him walking up the street.

Now this case is one that has been repeated in a number of individual variation's time and again, this was a human soul so wishing to go home, perhaps a son wanting to be with his mum at a time of pain and sickness as he died that his very soul somehow projected itself across time and space and manifested a very real body there, one though that was not of this world and so could not stay here as his soul had to pass over to were ever we go.

Now think on that - I am not saying it is the same but bare it in mind.

Jesus was spirit, spirit so powerful that he manifest as flesh but was still spirit - word of God - but manifest as flesh (Jesus is the word we are but a breath).

The same spirit that manifest our physical universe into being but that is a lower action since the universe is not him but below him - he manifest himself into being as a physical child and became a REAL man, more real than you or me - he is the creator after all incarnate as a man.

He said that he had the authority (power) to lay down his life and to take it back up again and he did just that, he really endured all of that pain and suffering and when the virgin Mary washed her son whom had been lowered into her arm's with her own tear's she looked on at the wound's of the scourging which alone would have killed most or indeed all other men, he had bled from them all the way to the place of the skull were he was then crucified by roman soldiers whom sang and joked as they pulled his arm's out of there sockets to nail his hand's to the cross, he forgave them and endured pain unimaginable but chose to die after a few hours - or his leg's would have been broken as it was approaching the sabbath, to make certain he was dead a soldier took a spear and pierced his side into his heart and both pure water and blood spilled out of the wound down the cross.

He was in the tomb because Joseph of Arimathia and Nicodemus had begged pilot for his body and he was lain in a tomb Joseph had thought he was having prepared for himself - but of course it had all along been intended for Jesus.
That night and the full following day he was in the tomb DEAD - but he had the authority (power) to take back up his life and on the third day he did just that, when the woman came to tend his body they found it empty and were told by an angelic being that he was not there for he had risen.

Over the next 40 day's, a period of purification in some Jewish ritual's, he was seen many time's by followers, sometime's though they did not recognize the stranger until he let them know it was him and allowed them to see him properly.

His apostle Thomas doubted his resurrection until Jesus bade him place his hand in the wound at his side - it had not healed and was still open yet he was alive, he would sometime's vanish from sight just like an apparition - but no ordinary apparition.

Have you ever seen a ghost, a mist like form or shadow form or even a solid apparition.

Jesus is not just a spirit he is the most powerful spirit beyond our comprehension, the pain he suffered was real as was the death he endured but as the creator of life itself he transcend's not only the physical but also the spiritual state of we mere mortal's.

He has offered us the greatest gift imaginable, to come to God through him, to be remade through him that is to come to him through his life and suffering.

Did he die for us, he died for the truly repentant, he came for the sick - the lost sheep, he came for his own - if any are of the devil then I believe he did not come for them but for those of us whom are of him, of his flock no matter how lost we have become, he lead's us back and we will know his voice when he call's.


If you could put this amount of effort into........anything else, you would probably actually make money off of it.



posted on May, 24 2019 @ 04:53 PM
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In Christianity mainly yes...he died for our karma.



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