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originally posted by: DISRAELI
a reply to: dfnj2015
In the teaching of the New Testament, it is the act of self-offering that matters. I've argued this issue through before, so I won't repeat it all in detail- Christ died for the ungodly. No, try this one- Lo, I come to do thy will, O God
It seems a little silly for us to try re-writing the rules about how salvation ought to work.
The question is whether what happened is enough to satisfy God, right? And if God thinks it is, who are we to quibble and say that he's wrong to be satisfied? It's like refusing a gift at Christmas- "Wait a minute, Dad, I want to look at your bank statement, because I'm not sure you can afford to give me that car".
originally posted by: dfnj2015
I tend to lean towards having faith in a God of unconditional love who saves everyone regardless of our sins.
Did he really die for our sins
originally posted by: dfnj2015
originally posted by: DISRAELI
a reply to: dfnj2015
In the teaching of the New Testament, it is the act of self-offering that matters. I've argued this issue through before, so I won't repeat it all in detail- Christ died for the ungodly. No, try this one- Lo, I come to do thy will, O God
It seems a little silly for us to try re-writing the rules about how salvation ought to work.
The question is whether what happened is enough to satisfy God, right? And if God thinks it is, who are we to quibble and say that he's wrong to be satisfied? It's like refusing a gift at Christmas- "Wait a minute, Dad, I want to look at your bank statement, because I'm not sure you can afford to give me that car".
I kind of think God is infinitely whole and complete with no desires or needs. So the idea "is enough to satisfy God" seems irrelevant. God is perfect and whole and needs absolutely nothing from us. What seems silly to me is people inventing God's imaginary needs with regards to salvation.
I tend to lean towards having faith in a God of unconditional love who saves everyone regardless of our sins.
originally posted by: Raggedyman
originally posted by: Klassified
a reply to: dfnj2015
"Did he really die for our sins?"
No more than those who died for humankinds sins before him, like...
Prometheus - Circa 800BC
Lo! streaming from the fatal tree
His all atoning blood,
Is this the Infinite?—Yes, ’tis he,
Prometheus, and a god!
Well might the sun in darkness hide,
And veil his glories in,
When God, the great Prometheus, died
For man the creature’s sin.
Tammuz - Circa 400BC?
Trust, ye saints,
your Lord restored,
Trust ye in your risen Lord;
For the pains which Tammuz endured
Our salvation have procured.
Quoted from here.
Are you sure Klass
Are you sure you understand what is written
www.tektonics.org...
Not much really, I can go on, but I shouldn’t need to
originally posted by: KansasGirl
originally posted by: BlueJacket
a reply to: dfnj2015
We always said no blood, no foul...so in that context, he seemed to of bled a lot.
Now Im a tad agnostic these days, I guess I need to have the "did a fellow named Jesus exist" conversation 1st.
Bart Ehrman, an atheist New Testament scholar, says that it's "ridiculous" to claim that Jesus of Nazareth didn't exist. The evidence for his existence, both internal in the New Testament AND external sources, are better than any evidence we have for other ancient people. He says there are 11 valid references for his existence. He compares it to Plato or maybe Alexander the Great, for which there are only 2.
He also argues that the Resurrection happened as well.
Again- he's an atheist, but he argues FOR the existence of Jesus of Nazareth and even for his death and resurrection.
Additionally how can God save everyone, what if others don’t want salvation, don’t want to be with God, it’s a choice God is love, love allows free choice not forced conversion.
originally posted by: DeathSlayer
a reply to: Raggedyman
Hi Raggedyman,
Additionally how can God save everyone, what if others don’t want salvation, don’t want to be with God, it’s a choice God is love, love allows free choice not forced conversion.
I agree with your statement above. Lets take a look in the book of Genesis where God speaks to the serpent after the fall of Adam and Eve. It is clear there are children of God and also children of the serpent. So not everyone on this planet is a child of God. Those who blaspheme God and reject him and his son are not children of God.
originally posted by: Klassified
originally posted by: Raggedyman
originally posted by: Klassified
a reply to: dfnj2015
"Did he really die for our sins?"
No more than those who died for humankinds sins before him, like...
Prometheus - Circa 800BC
Lo! streaming from the fatal tree
His all atoning blood,
Is this the Infinite?—Yes, ’tis he,
Prometheus, and a god!
Well might the sun in darkness hide,
And veil his glories in,
When God, the great Prometheus, died
For man the creature’s sin.
Tammuz - Circa 400BC?
Trust, ye saints,
your Lord restored,
Trust ye in your risen Lord;
For the pains which Tammuz endured
Our salvation have procured.
Quoted from here.
Are you sure Klass
Are you sure you understand what is written
www.tektonics.org...
Not much really, I can go on, but I shouldn’t need to
Although you missed the point of my post completely, I do appreciate the link. I have been looking at some new(to me) evidence FOR the existence of Christ that has come to my attention, because unlike most Christians, I don't shy away from new evidence that doen't agree with my present understanding.
The point by the way, is that Jesus is only one in a long line of "saviors" that predate him. The point is NOT parallels. Every culture puts their own twist on their gods. And yes, I understood quite well what I read.
How many ATS stars do you need to stay out of hell?
originally posted by: Raggedyman
originally posted by: Klassified
originally posted by: Raggedyman
originally posted by: Klassified
a reply to: dfnj2015
"Did he really die for our sins?"
No more than those who died for humankinds sins before him, like...
Prometheus - Circa 800BC
Lo! streaming from the fatal tree
His all atoning blood,
Is this the Infinite?—Yes, ’tis he,
Prometheus, and a god!
Well might the sun in darkness hide,
And veil his glories in,
When God, the great Prometheus, died
For man the creature’s sin.
Tammuz - Circa 400BC?
Trust, ye saints,
your Lord restored,
Trust ye in your risen Lord;
For the pains which Tammuz endured
Our salvation have procured.
Quoted from here.
Are you sure Klass
Are you sure you understand what is written
www.tektonics.org...
Not much really, I can go on, but I shouldn’t need to
Although you missed the point of my post completely, I do appreciate the link. I have been looking at some new(to me) evidence FOR the existence of Christ that has come to my attention, because unlike most Christians, I don't shy away from new evidence that doen't agree with my present understanding.
The point by the way, is that Jesus is only one in a long line of "saviors" that predate him. The point is NOT parallels. Every culture puts their own twist on their gods. And yes, I understood quite well what I read.
Jesus is not in a long line of saviours, He was unique
Incredibly unique and still is, hence your absolute hate for everything christian.
I don’t shy away from evidence, clearly I am a unique person just like you? So what?
Prove something, anything
You havnt offered anything that would suggest Jesus was a cookie cutter deity copied from other beliefs
You have insinuated such but offered nothing
To much Zeitgeist for you Mr Klass, prove otherwise
originally posted by: Klassified
originally posted by: Raggedyman
originally posted by: Klassified
originally posted by: Raggedyman
originally posted by: Klassified
a reply to: dfnj2015
"Did he really die for our sins?"
No more than those who died for humankinds sins before him, like...
Prometheus - Circa 800BC
Lo! streaming from the fatal tree
His all atoning blood,
Is this the Infinite?—Yes, ’tis he,
Prometheus, and a god!
Well might the sun in darkness hide,
And veil his glories in,
When God, the great Prometheus, died
For man the creature’s sin.
Tammuz - Circa 400BC?
Trust, ye saints,
your Lord restored,
Trust ye in your risen Lord;
For the pains which Tammuz endured
Our salvation have procured.
Quoted from here.
Are you sure Klass
Are you sure you understand what is written
www.tektonics.org...
Not much really, I can go on, but I shouldn’t need to
Although you missed the point of my post completely, I do appreciate the link. I have been looking at some new(to me) evidence FOR the existence of Christ that has come to my attention, because unlike most Christians, I don't shy away from new evidence that doen't agree with my present understanding.
The point by the way, is that Jesus is only one in a long line of "saviors" that predate him. The point is NOT parallels. Every culture puts their own twist on their gods. And yes, I understood quite well what I read.
Jesus is not in a long line of saviours, He was unique
Incredibly unique and still is, hence your absolute hate for everything christian.
I don’t shy away from evidence, clearly I am a unique person just like you? So what?
Prove something, anything
You havnt offered anything that would suggest Jesus was a cookie cutter deity copied from other beliefs
You have insinuated such but offered nothing
To much Zeitgeist for you Mr Klass, prove otherwise
It has always been, and is, up to the Christian to prove their assertions. Something they have never been able to do. It is not up to the non-believer to prove a negative. Not that it would be received anyway. In the face of a complete lack of evidence, the logical stance is one of disbelief.
The only thing unique about Jesus is a different take on an old story, that humans need salvation. They don't. Especially from the same "god" that is responsible for their supposed sinful state in the first place.
The only thing unique about Jesus is a different take on an old story, that humans need salvation. They don't. Especially from the same "god" that is responsible for their supposed sinful state in the first place.
originally posted by: LABTECH767
a reply to: dfnj2015
Not going to try to convince you but just think about this.
There have been many account's of people whom have just died - sometime's not even died but come very close indeed to death whom have been seen thousands of miles away back home, usually it is neighbors that see them and wave, the person sometime's smiles and sometime's waves back but never - or very seldom speak's, they are seen going toward there home.
The people at the home hear a knock but when they open the door there is no one there, some time later the meet receive news that there loved one - son in this case - was killed on the battlefield and in this case it was north Africa were the lad died during WW2, the neighbor some time later asked the mother about her son whom she had seen walking up to the house only to be met with a strange look from the grieving parent whom can not believe what they are hearing, there son is dead and on the very day he died there neighbor saw him walking up the street.
Now this case is one that has been repeated in a number of individual variation's time and again, this was a human soul so wishing to go home, perhaps a son wanting to be with his mum at a time of pain and sickness as he died that his very soul somehow projected itself across time and space and manifested a very real body there, one though that was not of this world and so could not stay here as his soul had to pass over to were ever we go.
Now think on that - I am not saying it is the same but bare it in mind.
Jesus was spirit, spirit so powerful that he manifest as flesh but was still spirit - word of God - but manifest as flesh (Jesus is the word we are but a breath).
The same spirit that manifest our physical universe into being but that is a lower action since the universe is not him but below him - he manifest himself into being as a physical child and became a REAL man, more real than you or me - he is the creator after all incarnate as a man.
He said that he had the authority (power) to lay down his life and to take it back up again and he did just that, he really endured all of that pain and suffering and when the virgin Mary washed her son whom had been lowered into her arm's with her own tear's she looked on at the wound's of the scourging which alone would have killed most or indeed all other men, he had bled from them all the way to the place of the skull were he was then crucified by roman soldiers whom sang and joked as they pulled his arm's out of there sockets to nail his hand's to the cross, he forgave them and endured pain unimaginable but chose to die after a few hours - or his leg's would have been broken as it was approaching the sabbath, to make certain he was dead a soldier took a spear and pierced his side into his heart and both pure water and blood spilled out of the wound down the cross.
He was in the tomb because Joseph of Arimathia and Nicodemus had begged pilot for his body and he was lain in a tomb Joseph had thought he was having prepared for himself - but of course it had all along been intended for Jesus.
That night and the full following day he was in the tomb DEAD - but he had the authority (power) to take back up his life and on the third day he did just that, when the woman came to tend his body they found it empty and were told by an angelic being that he was not there for he had risen.
Over the next 40 day's, a period of purification in some Jewish ritual's, he was seen many time's by followers, sometime's though they did not recognize the stranger until he let them know it was him and allowed them to see him properly.
His apostle Thomas doubted his resurrection until Jesus bade him place his hand in the wound at his side - it had not healed and was still open yet he was alive, he would sometime's vanish from sight just like an apparition - but no ordinary apparition.
Have you ever seen a ghost, a mist like form or shadow form or even a solid apparition.
Jesus is not just a spirit he is the most powerful spirit beyond our comprehension, the pain he suffered was real as was the death he endured but as the creator of life itself he transcend's not only the physical but also the spiritual state of we mere mortal's.
He has offered us the greatest gift imaginable, to come to God through him, to be remade through him that is to come to him through his life and suffering.
Did he die for us, he died for the truly repentant, he came for the sick - the lost sheep, he came for his own - if any are of the devil then I believe he did not come for them but for those of us whom are of him, of his flock no matter how lost we have become, he lead's us back and we will know his voice when he call's.