Miracles do Happen. The Story of John Smith.

originally posted by: ElectricUniverse
Is it God's fault that people lie to each other, cause harm to each other?

It's God's fault that he murdered thousands of people in Lisbon who were in church worshiping him at the time.

The 1755 Lisbon Earthquake – The Start of Atheism in Europe?

The year was 1755. The place was Lisbon, which was Portugal’s capital and the largest city in the area. It was known as one of the biggest ports on the Atlantic Ocean, and the city played a critical role in world trade. It was also a pious city of devout Christians. It was November 1, All Saints Day. Most people were gathered in their churches and synagogues. They were praying and worshiping. Suddenly, an earthquake that likely had a magnitude of 8.0, struck the area. Contemporary reports said it lasted between 3 – 6 minutes, causing fissures 5 meters (15 feet) in length to open in the city centre. Roughly 85% of Lisbon’s buildings were destroyed, which includes nearly all of the churches whose structures tended to be among the tallest, and thus the most deadly when they collapsed on their occupants. The screams of terror must have been horrific. It would be later known as one of the deadliest earthquakes ever recorded.

To make matters worse, forty minutes later a tsunami engulfed the area killing many more. Close to the coast, a 6 meter (20-foot) tall wave rushed ashore, the first of three. And if collapsing buildings and huge waves of water wasn’t bad enough, fires broke out which raged for 5 days. If the earthquake didn’t get you, the water or fire likely did. The death toll estimates ranged between 10,000 – 50,000 from these natural disasters. An exact number isn’t known since accurate records were either not kept or any records of the populace that existed were destroyed by the disasters.

Many that survived, which included escaped prisoners, fled Lisbon immediately. The survivors soon began to ask the question, why did this happen? Was God the cause? If God is love, how could this happen? Was it divine judgment?

As for the so called miracle, I see science explaining this. This paper says

“Nobody is dead until warm and dead”: Prolonged resuscitation is warranted in arrested hypothermic victims also in remote areas – A retrospective study from northern Norway

So “Nobody is dead until warm and dead” has been shown again and again in cold water situations.

By the way I was walking across a frozen lake as a child and fell into the freezing water when a thin spot in the ice couldn't support my weight. I was barely able to get out, and often thought that could have easily been fatal. Even though I could swim, your muscles lose responsiveness quickly in those water temperatures unless you're wearing some kind of protection like a wetsuit or drysuit.

originally posted by: ElectricUniverse

originally posted by: TzarChasm

So your opinion is that there must be an excellent moral basis for letting some innocent folks die (in horrible suffering I might add) while other folks get a random miracle. But you can't explain that moral basis and you judge me for believing an explanation is definitely in order.

It seems that you believe that I must know Elohim's/God's mind. I don't.

BTW, do you blame those who murder unborn children, and newborn children? Have you seen how those children are murdered, and how they react trying to survive inside their mother's womb meanwhile a death practitioner tries to kill those babies? Is that God's fault, or is it the fault of those men and women?

Is it God's fault if some evil people decide to make a profit meanwhile they do something that causes cancer/harm to others and causes them to die horribly?

Is it God's fault that people lie to each other, cause harm to each other?

If Elohim/God interceded in everything, and if he forced you and everyone else to do as he wills, I am sure you would be complaining that "God/Elohim is a dictator."

It is his fault if he can do some miraculous recovery magic and chooses not to. Good innocent people suffer needlessly, they die in a horrible unjust way every day and he lets it happen? Then why call him god?

originally posted by: TzarChasm

It is his fault if he can do some miraculous recovery magic and chooses not to. Good innocent people suffer needlessly, they die in a horrible unjust way every day and he lets it happen? Then why call him god?

It isn't Elohim's/God's fault... He gave free will to mankind. What men and women do with their free will is not the fault of Elohim/God.

You remind me of an acquaintance of mine whom shifted his own fault on "capitalism." He claims that because he had decided not to pay a fair wage to his employees, that it is the fault of capitalism... This acquaintance of mine is a socialist who lives in Mexico and has a business there...

a reply to: Arbitrageur

Let's take a look at your "evidence."

Abstract

Hypothermic cardiac arrest has high mortality and few known prognostic factors. We studied retrospectively 34 victims of accidental hypothermia with cardiac arrest admitted to The University Hospital of North Norway during 1985–2013 who were resuscitated and rewarmed by extracorporeal circulation. No patient survived prior to 1999, while nine out of 24 (37.5%) survived hypothermic cardiac arrest from 1999 to 2013. The lowest measured core temperature among survivors was 13.7 °C; the longest time from cardiac arrest to return of spontaneous circulation was 6 h and 52 min. The only predictor of survival identified was lower blood potassium concentration in the nine survivors compared with the non-survivors. Submersion was not associated with reduced survival. Non-survivors consumed modest hospital resources. Most survivors had a favourable neurological outcome.
...

www.sciencedirect.com...

Only a few people survived, not everyone did. i also got to wonder what a favourable neurological outcome means...

BTW, i find it quite interesting that they had to add this line in the paper...

...
Survival was defined as survival one year after the accident or at the end of the inclusion period.
...

Did they die later? Is that why they had to add that line?

BTW, John was warmed up and was still dead during the time that doctors tried to revive him. He only got his pulse back when his mother called out to God/Elohim.

I see zero evidence of a god doing this. Just because we do not understand does not mean god did it.

originally posted by: ElectricUniverse

originally posted by: TzarChasm

It is his fault if he can do some miraculous recovery magic and chooses not to. Good innocent people suffer needlessly, they die in a horrible unjust way every day and he lets it happen? Then why call him god?

It isn't Elohim's/God's fault... He gave free will to mankind. What men and women do with their free will is not the fault of Elohim/God.

You remind me of an acquaintance of mine whom shifted his own fault on "capitalism." He claims that because he had decided not to pay a fair wage to his employees, that it is the fault of capitalism... This acquaintance of mine is a socialist who lives in Mexico and has a business there...

Doesn't really matter who I remind you of, that's not the topic here. My point is that with great power comes great responsibility. When you have the means and the opportunity and bad things still happen to good people for no reason, you become accessory to the suffering. There is no free pass, no plausible deniability because you have advertised yourself as a cosmic miracle worker for whom no task is too great and no need is too small, but now your miracles are both conditional and arbitrary? I call BS. Either you are all powerful and benevolent or you aren't.

a reply to: ElectricUniverse

Many people point to events in the bible in which God called for children and people to die. But those people don't know, or ignore the fact that in other parts of the bible it states why God did that. The fallen ones, angels/demons/ets, had sex with women and from them monsters/people renown came about. In various part of the bible the offsprings of the fallen ones and women are described as being cannibals. Although the bible itself doesn't explain it all the Torah does.

So Hitler wasn't evil enough for God to smite as a child but the thousands of children that die everyday deserve it?

originally posted by: TzarChasm

Doesn't really matter who I remind you of, that's not the topic here. My point is that with great power comes great responsibility. When you have the means and the opportunity and bad things still happen to good people for no reason, you become accessory to the suffering. There is no free pass, no plausible deniability because you have advertised yourself as a cosmic miracle worker for whom no task is too great and no need is too small, but now your miracles are both conditional and arbitrary? I call BS. Either you are all powerful and benevolent or you aren't.

Yes it does, because you want to shift the blame. Not to mention the fact that "you" seem to believe you know better, and that God should rule by your rules. So in fact you seem to believe that "you" are God, or you want to be. Again, mankind was given free will, what mankind does with it it's mankinds fault, not God's.

I know you are going to respond by claiming "if I were God I would do this..." Yet again showing the fact that atheists like yourself believe you are the highest intelligence in the multiverse, and the ones who should rule mankind by your rules...

We see this same attitude in Liberals who seem to think you all know better and that everyone should abide by "your rules."

originally posted by: Xcalibur254

So Hitler wasn't evil enough for God to smite as a child but the thousands of children that die everyday deserve it?

Is that what I wrote?... BTW, you are one of the people who want the kind of socialism that Hitler implemented, so perhaps it shouldn't be you trying to shift the blame away.

Hitler and the nazis CHOSE to do the evil they committed against mankind. Part of their problem was the fact that HItler and the nazis gave more value to nature and animals than to human beings like the Jewish people...

It's the cold and ventilator that saved him.

Let me know when someone can pray God into regenerating a human amputee's lost limb.

Because that never happens unlike resuscitation which happens regularly.

Now that would be a miracle.

originally posted by: ElectricUniverse

originally posted by: TzarChasm

Doesn't really matter who I remind you of, that's not the topic here. My point is that with great power comes great responsibility. When you have the means and the opportunity and bad things still happen to good people for no reason, you become accessory to the suffering. There is no free pass, no plausible deniability because you have advertised yourself as a cosmic miracle worker for whom no task is too great and no need is too small, but now your miracles are both conditional and arbitrary? I call BS. Either you are all powerful and benevolent or you aren't.

Yes it does, because you want to shift the blame. Not to mention the fact that "you" seem to believe you know better, and that God should rule by your rules. So in fact you seem to believe that "you" are God, or you want to be. Again, mankind was given free will, what mankind does with it it's mankinds fault, not God's.

I know you are going to respond by claiming "if I were God I would do this..." Yet again showing the fact that atheists like yourself believe you are the highest intelligence in the multiverse, and the ones who should rule mankind by your rules...

We see this same attitude in Liberals who seem to think you all know better and that everyone should abide by "your rules."

It's really no different from you making excuses for this hypothetical maker of miracles and acting like you can justify his completely randomized acts of mercy. I'm arrogant for asking questions and pointing out inconsistencies but you are righteous for fabricating cop outs right after you just admitted you don't know how this miracle stuff works and why innocent people suffer for no reason? You just assume there's a rational basis and I'm saying it's wrong to assume anything like that, particularly when folks are being randomly selected for your cosmic welfare lottery. Either he is perfect and all powerful and awesome at what he does or he isn't. Lets acknowledge the real heroes in this story, the local emergency personnel who certainly did most of the work by prepping this man for recovery and making his journey home possible.

a reply to: ElectricUniverse

I'm confused as to the miracle bit myself.

Is the miracle that he "died" in a way that medical science could save him?

Is the medical science itself the miracle?

If it's the medical science then surely it is also a miracle when say someone is cured of cholera or malaria? And if not, why not.

Don't get me wrong, there is something comforting and warming about these types of stories.....i just don't get the miracle bit.

originally posted by: ElectricUniverse
a reply to: Arbitrageur

Let's take a look at your "evidence."

www.sciencedirect.com...

Only a few people survived, not everyone did. i also got to wonder what a favourable neurological outcome means...

What's your point? That everyone who survived was a miracle and everyone who didn't survive wasn't? I don't get your issue with some people dying, in fact there was one correlation established with survival rates, lower blood potassium.

My assumption of the meaning of favourable neurological outcome is that most or all neurological capacity was retained after the incident, including brain function. In contrast, if there was a significant loss of brain function, that would not be a favourable outcome, would it?

When exposed to any trauma or even poison, some people will die and some people won't, it's just statistics and the survivors aren't usually classed as miracles. The reasons for the survival rates can't always be correlated to something definitive like the blood potassium, but it's often presumed to be related to genetic differences.

Ever hear of LD50 or the lethal dose at which 50% of the population dies from exposure? The whole basis for that measurement of lethality is that half survive and half don't, and if you exceed it probably more than half won't survive and less than half will survive. For example, when rats "drink" (orally consume) roughly 9% of their body weight of water, about half of them die, so the LD50 of water for rats is around 9% of body mass, and presumably drinking similar excessive amounts of water can kill humans too considering the similarities in mammalian physiology. Is it a miracle that half the rats survive and half don't? I don't think so.

originally posted by: reject
Let me know when someone can pray God into regenerating a human amputee's lost limb.

Because that never happens unlike resuscitation which happens regularly.

Now that would be a miracle.

Agreed, if regrowing a lost limb was provided as evidence of a miracle, it would be much more compelling evidence. But that has never happened to my knowledge.

originally posted by: Arbitrageur

What's your point? That everyone who survived was a miracle and everyone who didn't survive wasn't? I don't get your issue with some people dying, in fact there was one correlation established with survival rates, lower blood potassium.

First, that survival after not having oxygen to the brain for 15 minutes+ is not guaranteed and is rare. Second, since that research paper you posted does not specifies what they mean by "favorable outcome," meanwhile in the case of John we know with 100% certainty that he survived with no brain function loss whatsoever, you can't compare the cases unless you can provide evidence that they recovered like John did.

originally posted by: Arbitrageur
My assumption of the meaning of favourable neurological outcome is that most or all neurological capacity was retained after the incident, including brain function. In contrast, if there was a significant loss of brain function, that would not be a favourable outcome, would it?

You are "assuming" without any evidence pointing towards your assumption. Again, first they felt the need to add that survival for those cases mean the survival for a year. Why did they have to add that comment at all?

Second, a favorable outcome can also mean the best possible outcome despite the brain not receiving oxygen for 15 minutes or more. Which would include losing at least some brain function.

originally posted by: Arbitrageur
When exposed to any trauma or even poison, some people will die and some people won't, it's just statistics and the survivors aren't usually classed as miracles. The reasons for the survival rates can't always be correlated to something definitive like the blood potassium, but it's often presumed to be related to genetic differences.

Genetic differences does nothing to help surviving drowning and not losing ANY brain function after the brain had no oxygen for over 15 minutes.

In the case of poisons however there are many variables that can be attributed to the recovery of some people because the immune system, how strong the immune system that person has is, whether or not that person has received in the past antidotes for that poison, etc, etc.

You are trying to compare apples with oranges.

a reply to: Flavian

The first responders and doctors tried to get a pulse and they could not, but once the mother payed to God John did get a pulse, and the fact that John had no brain function loss at all despite his brain receiving no oxygen for at least 15 minutes.

According to the CDC, around 10 people drown every day and 1 in 5 are children. One boy survives a drowning and it's "oh thank God" but what about the dozens who don't survive? It's a miracle precisely because no one believed it could happen and that's a standard set in place by the consistent death count. Which is another way of saying that divine intervention is so uncommon as to be magical, as opposed to something like vaccines. Which are administered in hospitals which were invented because of how reliable faith healing turned out to be.

a reply to: ElectricUniverse

appologies - this thread slipped my attention . but :

citation required

giving him oxygen for 10 minutes until they gave up.

in the list of nonsensical gibberish associate with this tail - that makes the least sense

a reply to: TzarChasm

Since you are an atheist I am certain you are very left-wing and believe in abortion... That "left-wing" belief has murdered over 60 million children... So you shouldn't try to blame God for anything when you devalue the most innocent human life and believe "it's ok to murder them..."

originally posted by: ignorant_ape

in the list of nonsensical gibberish associate with this tail - that makes the least sense

So you still can't understand the difference between tail and tale?... This wasn't a tale, this was a real event...