Miracles do Happen. The Story of John Smith.

originally posted by: TzarChasm

Can I ask what your point is? You are trying to prove miracles are real? Is that all?

May I ask what's so wrong about that, and why the clearly antagonistic attitude?

a reply to: Wide-Eyes

It's a miracle!

I knew I should have changed that signature!
Yeah … maybe tomorrow.

a reply to: ElectricUniverse

How about you show proof that "somebody is lying and people are being coerced" as you claim?

I don't want to name names of people who might still be living and working in that town. So I'll focus on Jason Noble, the Assembly of God minister, since his current position is:

Catalyst Resource Group
Church Marketing-"Breakthrough" · May 1, 2018 to present · Medford, Oregon
Working on the church marketing team for the movie "Breakthrough" being released by 20th Century Fox and producer DeVon Franklin.

Hey, I been in that Medford, Oregon AG church back in 1983. My first wife and I invited my sister in law to go with us. She was leery and asked, "They aren't going to make me kiss a bead or anything will they?"

Anyway, his whole ministry is marketing this movie. Strange for someone who was Lead pastor · 2013 to 2018 · Saint Peters, Missouri and Lead pastor · March 21, 2010 to June 29, 2014 · Port Angeles, Washington.

check at around 01:34 mark
"...he had icicles hanging off his body …"

The outside temperature was around 60 degrees, the water temperature was 40 degrees. Not consistent with icicles.

check around 03:15 "I still manage the family". Sounds like the Smiths are a cash cow for this guy.

When should we call exploitation?

I don't know what people think that this miracle is supposed to prove. Sometimes I look at worst case scenarios like, "It proves that the doctrinal teachings of Mrs. Smith are superior to other teachings." If that were the case then wouldn't all the Roman Catholic staff at the hospital repent and become AG believers?

If the RCs aren't expected to convert and believe then why should Agnostics be expected to believe?

So flocks of "miracle tourists" descend upon the town and expect to see a bunch of ecstatic Christians basking in the glow of holiness and their just regular people, then they demand that the regular people confess that they witnessed a miracle. Then the town council passes ordinances to get the people to "act the part" for the tourism dollars.

I probably saw too many movies with town conspiracies like 1988 Funny Farm starring Chevy Chase.


Now let's suppose that the pastor wasn't lying about the icicles. And that Tommy Shine was not coerced into saying what was written on the book cover:

“When we pulled John out of the water he was dead. He was grey, and had icicles hanging off hair, nose, and ears.”
— Tommy Shine, First Responder

That would tend to prove that Jack Frost is real, expert in hypothermia and drowning. So Jack Frost lowered John's brain temperature, lower than the 88 degree body temperature (probably measured rectally). The miracle, after all, was that 88 degree body temperature was not low enough to kick in a Cold Water Drowning effect.

Therefore: Jack Frost

originally posted by: pthena

I don't want to name names of people who might still be living and working in that town. So I'll focus on Jason Noble, the Assembly of God minister, since his current position is:

Catalyst Resource Group
Church Marketing-"Breakthrough" · May 1, 2018 to present · Medford, Oregon
Working on the church marketing team for the movie "Breakthrough" being released by 20th Century Fox and producer DeVon Franklin.

And?... A miracle happened which these people wanted others to know about. If this movie hadn't been made millions of people, myself included, would not have known about this story...

originally posted by: pthena
Hey, I been in that Medford, Oregon AG church back in 1983. My first wife and I invited my sister in law to go with us. She was leery and asked, "They aren't going to make me kiss a bead or anything will they?"

From 1983 til 2015 is 32 years... I imagine a lot of things have changed since you were there last.

originally posted by: pthena
The outside temperature was around 60 degrees, the water temperature was 40 degrees. Not consistent with icicles.

From where did you get that the water temperature was 40 degrees?

originally posted by: pthena
check around 03:15 "I still manage the family". Sounds like the Smiths are a cash cow for this guy.

When should we call exploitation?

You are jumping to conclusions... The "I manage the family" is probably related to him being their pastor, not about "the smiths are a cash cow for the pastor." I am not familiar with what type of church they are in, but if you watch the movie you find out that the pastor not only takes care of people in the church, but also gets involved in their lives outside the church. Unless you have real evidence for your claim, you are only making false accusations.

originally posted by: pthena
I don't know what people think that this miracle is supposed to prove. Sometimes I look at worst case scenarios like, "It proves that the doctrinal teachings of Mrs. Smith are superior to other teachings." If that were the case then wouldn't all the Roman Catholic staff at the hospital repent and become AG believers?

...This event doesn't teach that, since in the same movie they included that many people from that church, including neighbors and people from the school kept asking John why he thought that God saved him, but didn't save countless of others who are part of that same church.

Similar miracles have occurred to other people who are part of different churches.

originally posted by: pthena
If the RCs aren't expected to convert and believe then why should Agnostics be expected to believe?

What?... Where in the world did i write "you must become a member of this church"?... I don't even know what church they are involved in...

originally posted by: pthena
So flocks of "miracle tourists" descend upon the town and expect to see a bunch of ecstatic Christians basking in the glow of holiness and their just regular people, then they demand that the regular people confess that they witnessed a miracle. Then the town council passes ordinances to get the people to "act the part" for the tourism dollars.
...

What in the world?... Do you have any actual evidence for all these claims you are pulling out of a magic hat?

a reply to: ElectricUniverse

From where did you get that the water temperature was 40 degrees?

Is there a medical explanation for John's survival and recovery?

"The only factors medically that were really in John's favor is that this was a cold-water drowning," said Dr. Jeremy Garrett (portrayed by Dennis Haysbert in the movie). He said that lowering the body temperature can preserve brain function, but that it "really shouldn't have worked in John's case." This is because the lake water was only 40 degrees and John's body temperature only dropped to 88 degrees, which isn't cold enough to adequately protect the brain.

"Usually you'd like it to be colder and you'd like the victim to be smaller actually," said Dr. Garrett, "because what you really need to have happen is for the brain to get cold before the blood flow stops to the brain. So, for John's brain to have gotten cold to be protected from the lack of blood flow and the lack of oxygen really is a miracle in itself, if that did anything here." -Cincinnati.com

The "I manage the family" is probably related to him being their pastor, not about "the smiths are a cash cow for the pastor." I am not familiar with what type of church they are in,

I was a member of Assembly of God a couple of times, 1980 & 1983. I quit in 1980 because of money and in 1983 because of money. Like 2 or 3 passing of the offering plate per service. Preacher dude says "My mom's rent money got lost for the month so we'll take up a special offering."

I'm like "Dude, I'm otta here. Can't take care of your own mom? If her rent's 600 and you collect 800, where do we pick up our refunds?"

Unless you have real evidence for your claim, you are only making false accusations.

Medford, Oregon is a bit too far from Missouri to be considered a normal pastoral visit.

What in the world?... Do you have any actual evidence for all these claims you are pulling out of a magic hat?

The movies. I thought I made that plain. Read that article that I linked. The book was written after the movie deal was made. Co-written by a professional ghost writer. There are differences between what happened and how it was dramatized.

In the movie, Tommy Shine (Mike Colter) is also portrayed as being an agnostic who finds faith after witnessing the miracle of John Smith surviving the drowning. However, his religion is never discussed in the book and it appears that this spiritual transformation is fictional.

originally posted by: ElectricUniverse
a reply to: pthena

The fact that miracles do happen despite atheist claiming the contrary.

That isn’t actually a very accurate assessment, particularly when using a stereotypical blanket statement regarding all atheists. Why does everything have to be an “Us vs. Them” paradigm? I don’t think anyone disputes that it’s an amazing and yes, miraculous recover in a situation where the patient never should have recovered period, let alone with his mental faculties intact.

The place where I start to falter, is in the insistence that it was a very specific interpretation of one particular god that provided said miracle. There really isn’t any correlation/causation scenario here. Would you have the same interpretation had the mother been from a polytheistic background? What if it were the child of someone who believed in the Norse Pantheon for example? Would that have been undeniable proof that Odin, Thor or Heimdall were real entities? Or would the goal posts have been moved to make the narrative fit your personal theistic beliefs better?


I guess the shorter, more succinct language to make my point would be that while yes it is certainly a miraculous situation that this kid made it through, seemingly unscathed, forgoing all other explanations and jumping right to “my specific god did it” is a giant leap of faith.

originally posted by: VegHead
Prayers don’t always get answered, miracles don’t always result

Let me fix this for you:
Prayers NEVER get answered. Sometimes the thing a person prays for just so happens to take place for reasons that have absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with prayer, so people choose to ignore all of the countless times it doesnt happen and decide that they somehow have the power to influence the actions and decisions of the supposedly perfect being they believe in (even though if god was perfect we wouldnt need to ask him to change or do anything, and the very concepts of a perfect god and of prayer influencing god directly contradict each other).

Of course, this is extremely dumb and egotistical for a variety of reasons. If god is perfect, why would you want to change his actions, since everything he decides or does would necessarily be perfect also? If god is perfect, why would you need him to change his actions? What makes people think they are so special and incredible that they know better than this supposed perfect being (which is implied when you pray to god asking him/her to do something specific), let alone that they can somehow influence that being's actions? If he/she was perfect and omnipotent, his actions wouldnt ever need to be changed or influenced. So is god not perfect, or are the people whose prayers are supposedly answered somehow even more perfect and wise than god (a logistical impossibility), allowing them to know better than freaking god how something should turn out or who should live and die or blah blah blah?

And, specific to your comment: if god "has a plan" for this guy, why on earth would his mother have to pray in thr first place? Why did it take so long? "I HAVE BIG PLANS FOR THIS YOUNG MAN.... BUT I THINK I'LL GO AHEAD AND LET HIM DIE UNLESS HIS MOM SHOWS UP AT HIS HOSPITAL ROOM AND BEGS ME TO KEEP HIM ALIVE." Think about just how idiotic that is.

One of my biggest pet peeves....
"God is all-knowing and all-powerful and perfect... but i think i'll go ahead and suggest he do something, because i apparently know better than god, and am not smart enough to realize that the very concept of praying for god to do something and it actually influencing his actions COMPLETELY undermines the very concept of my perfect god!"

originally posted by: ElectricUniverse
a reply to: pthena

The fact that miracles do happen despite atheist claiming the contrary.

Good freaking grief. Educate yourself. Maybe learn about statistics and probabilities. Then you can stop believing moronic fairy tales nonsense like miracles and understand the real actual reason things happen.
There have been countless people throughout history. People have been around for a very long time. Just due to probabilities, time, number of people, etc etc, even the most unlikely and improbable events will occur at some point. Something that has a 0.00001 percent chance of happening? Guess what? It will almost necessarily happen at some point, just due to the sheer amount of times the opportunity for that thing arises!
I know science frightens religious people, but try it some time! Then you could know the real reason that seemingly "impossible" things do ultimately happen from time to time, instead of simply saying "miracle, derp derp derp!" It really shouldnt be that hard to understand, if you stop choosing to be willfully ignorant.

a reply to: peter vlar

Greetings peter vlar:

I guess the shorter, more succinct language to make my point would be that while yes it is certainly a miraculous situation that this kid made it through, seemingly unscathed, forgoing all other explanations and jumping right to “my specific god did it” is a giant leap of faith.

That's what I meant to say, but got dragged into the weeds of specifics.

Plus, I should have recused myself because of prejudice concerning AG.

a reply to: hombero

Improbable...but definitely possible...especially flash freezing a human body....it really can happen.*

* add prayer and anything is possible...even if seemingly improbable

EMT/Paramedic
1st Responder

Cold water lowers the body temp fast enough then then brain will not die as quickly as the need for oxygen lowers .
There is a frog that can be compleatly frozen then thawed out and live to tell the tail .
But hey dont take my word for this . This guy was NOT the ONLY person who died for HOURS and was brought back or even came back on there own .
minnesota.cbslocal.com...
NOTE his blood flow STOPPED for 3 hours .
www.telegraph.co.uk...
all 3 cases have the same MO all body temperatures DROPPED way below what humans can live at BUT at the same time there brains DID NOT die because of teh lowered tempture once warmed back up the heart will restart on its own as shown in one or even two cases .
Once mite be a god twice could be just luck 3 times you start seeing trends
many more cases like it just google PS some cases are long before we had the teck to even understand this possibility .
Besides tell me why was this person so important god would bring him back all the wile babys die before every drawing the first breath ( and yes moms beg plead and off there own life for the children .

SO many reformed drunks and drug addicts saying GOD saved them wile children die around the world the arragence is amazing
Got to a Childrens hospital and tell the mothers they just are not praying hard enough . Mayeb when ten kids all dead come back you could have a point .

originally posted by: Maroboduus


Good freaking grief. Educate yourself. Maybe learn about statistics and probabilities. Then you can stop believing moronic fairy tales nonsense like miracles and understand the real actual reason things happen.
There have been countless people throughout history. People have been around for a very long time. Just due to probabilities, time, number of people, etc etc, even the most unlikely and improbable events will occur at some point. Something that has a 0.00001 percent chance of happening? Guess what? It will almost necessarily happen at some point, just due to the sheer amount of times the opportunity for that thing arises!
I know science frightens religious people, but try it some time! Then you could know the real reason that seemingly "impossible" things do ultimately happen from time to time, instead of simply saying "miracle, derp derp derp!" It really shouldnt be that hard to understand, if you stop choosing to be willfully ignorant.

Oh yes, the perfect, and all knowing "Maroboduus", who thinks too highly of himself and must insult anyone who DARES believe differently than him/her...

Here is what, unless you have something actually intelligent to write about stay out of the thread because all you are doing is throwing insults "because there are people who DARE not believe what "Maroboduus" believes...

a reply to: pthena

Unless you actually excerpt the statements by Tommy Shine, all you are doing is posting the claims from another person who wasn't there.

In fact, according to the following news link Tommy states that he heard a voice, he thought in that interview that it was John talking to him, telling him where to look for John.

...
Wentzville firefighter Tommy Shine arrived in his ice rescue gear. He tells Fox 2 he felt as if John was talking to him and directed him exactly where to put a large pole into the water. Shine felt around on the bottom of the lake for a body. He immediately pulled up and up came John. He didn't have a pulse.
...

fox2now.com...

According to the movie Tommy comes to believe much later that it was God who spoke to him. He didn't immediately believe it was God, he thought at first it was someone else who told him where to look. But since John himself had already drowned and was underwater it couldn't have been him. So it is very possible that Tommy came to realize that it was God who told him where to look.

Again, you keep making claims because of what people who weren't there want to "think" themselves, and not because it happened as those people who were there tell you.

One more thing, as for the "icycles clinging to John's clothes" and you claiming this is not possible? The air temperature was 50 degrees, and the water was 40 degrees, it was still cold and these three kids broke through the ice, which means the ice broke into smaller sizes, and yes the ice can cling to people's clothes. So you see, you keep on making claims, being told by people who weren't there, and you want to "believe" those claims, when the people who were there say differently from those claims you are posting.

a reply to: midnightstar

And who is murdering most of those children? Not God, but men and women with evil hearts. BTW, this case you posted, the boy didn't drown, his temperature lowered but he could still be breathing without the parents realizing. This is a moment in which the parent's hearts are racing and could not have noticed that the cold had slowed down their boy's system. In fact the operator states this.

...
“We can help him. We can see if we can help him,” said the operator. “Sometimes the cold will slow down their system and we can help him.”
...

minnesota.cbslocal.com...

But yes, there are some people, and some kids that recover miraculously. However, even that second case you gave it's possible that the child will develop problems later in life, and this is why.

My grand-mother, on my father side, was about to give birth in Cuba to an uncle of mine, but there were no doctors at the hospital. My grandmother's water had broke, and the nurse in ignorance told her to hold and not push and to wait for the doctor. Because of this my uncle didn't get enough oxygen to his brain. However he was born and seemed normal. But around puberty he began to show neurological problems, and eventually had no control over his body, and his mental capacity was diminished greatly.

I hope that baby girl in your second link does not go through that, but it can happen. However, John Smith recovered completely with no neurological problems.

So those cases are completely different to what happened to John. John drowned, and even if he recovered doctors thought that he would have serious neurological problems because his brain had no oxygen for a long time.

As to why God chooses some people, and not everyone? I don't know, but it happens. However, if you want to blame anyone as to why billions of children are murdered look at the "belief of the left," and the evil people who devalue innocent human lives and do unspeakable things to children, and even adults. That isn't God's doing, it is evil men and women who do these things.

a reply to: ElectricUniverse

And again, this just raises the question of why some people get miracles and some don't. Its weird how mercy works I guess.

originally posted by: TzarChasm
a reply to: ElectricUniverse

And again, this just raises the question of why some people get miracles and some don't. Its weird how mercy works I guess.

There could be many reasons. For all we know it is the destiny of some people to survive, and for others to pass on. But the fact is, there is no "probability" when it comes to cases such as this one. When the brain doesn't get oxygen, or enough oxygen for 15 minutes or more, brain cells start to die and hence the brain deteriorates. There is no "probability" into this sort of equation. When someone survives what John did, they have irreversible brain/cognitive damage. This is why the doctors who were there call it a miracle." More so when the doctors and first responders tried to revive him but John didn't get a pulse until his mother called for God and asked him to save her child.

I know it hurts to people who have lost someone they love. I have lost a sister, and a brother. My little sister died because she was born with a bad heart, and my brother died in my mother's womb. She did not have an induced abortion. As a child I held my little sister many times and we formed a bond, which is why it hurts more when I think of her than when I think of my brother, although that hurts too.

IMO it is the destiny for some people to survive and others' destiny is not to survive. Perhaps there are reasons why, but I am not all knowing and can't say why it happens. Only God knows.

Many people point to events in the bible in which God called for children and people to die. But those people don't know, or ignore the fact that in other parts of the bible it states why God did that. The fallen ones, angels/demons/ets, had sex with women and from them monsters/people renown came about. In various part of the bible the offsprings of the fallen ones and women are described as being cannibals. Although the bible itself doesn't explain it all the Torah does.

a reply to: ElectricUniverse

If this miracle was really the work of some intelligent cosmic agency, then they are jerks for picking who lives and who dies behind our backs. That's kind of rude because they apparently operate outside our awareness and approval. There's no dialogue and no oversight. Very select families benefit from that relationship and everyone else is ignored. I don't think that's fair.

originally posted by: TzarChasm
a reply to: ElectricUniverse

If this miracle was really the work of some intelligent cosmic agency, then they are jerks for picking who lives and who dies behind our backs. That's kind of rude because they apparently operate outside our awareness and approval. There's no dialogue and no oversight. Very select families benefit from that relationship and everyone else is ignored. I don't think that's fair.

Do you know everything? I am willing to bet that like me, you don't know everything. How can you "judge" Elohim based on the fact that you don't know the reasons why Elohim chooses whom to save? What if Elohim chooses to save a child only for the child to suffer throughout life?

If life was perfect, if there was no suffering would we ever learn anything from life? Would we learn sympathy towards others?

If we never loss anything, would we appreciate what we have?

IMO, if life was perfect, we would lose ourselves and we would forget to appreciate what we have, to have sympathy towards other's pain.

originally posted by: ElectricUniverse

originally posted by: TzarChasm
a reply to: ElectricUniverse

If this miracle was really the work of some intelligent cosmic agency, then they are jerks for picking who lives and who dies behind our backs. That's kind of rude because they apparently operate outside our awareness and approval. There's no dialogue and no oversight. Very select families benefit from that relationship and everyone else is ignored. I don't think that's fair.

Do you know everything? I am willing to bet that like me, you don't know everything. How can you "judge" Elohim based on the fact that you don't know the reasons why Elohim chooses whom to save? What if Elohim chooses to save a child only for the child to suffer throughout life?

If life was perfect, if there was no suffering would we ever learn anything from life? Would we learn sympathy towards others?

If we never loss anything, would we appreciate what we have?

IMO, if life was perfect, we would lose ourselves and we would forget to appreciate what we have, to have sympathy towards other's pain.

So your opinion is that there must be an excellent moral basis for letting some innocent folks die (in horrible suffering I might add) while other folks get a random miracle. But you can't explain that moral basis and you judge me for believing an explanation is definitely in order.

originally posted by: TzarChasm

So your opinion is that there must be an excellent moral basis for letting some innocent folks die (in horrible suffering I might add) while other folks get a random miracle. But you can't explain that moral basis and you judge me for believing an explanation is definitely in order.

It seems that you believe that I must know Elohim's/God's mind. I don't.

BTW, do you blame those who murder unborn children, and newborn children? Have you seen how those children are murdered, and how they react trying to survive inside their mother's womb meanwhile a death practitioner tries to kill those babies? Is that God's fault, or is it the fault of those men and women?

Is it God's fault if some evil people decide to make a profit meanwhile they do something that causes cancer/harm to others and causes them to die horribly?

Is it God's fault that people lie to each other, cause harm to each other?

If Elohim/God interceded in everything, and if he forced you and everyone else to do as he wills, I am sure you would be complaining that "God/Elohim is a dictator."