Mars - Dusty and Gusty

The wind direction changed by about 180 degrees, which would be expected if a dust devil had passed directly over the lander. APSS measured a peak wind speed of 45 miles per hour (20 meters per second). But it also detected the biggest air pressure drop ever recorded by a Mars surface mission: 9 pascals, or 13% of ambient pressure. That pressure drop suggests there may have been even stronger winds that were too turbulent for sensors to record.

"The absolute fastest wind we've directly measured so far from InSight was 63 miles per hour (28 meters per second), so the vortex that lifted dust off our solar panels was among the strongest winds we've seen," said InSight participating scientist Aymeric Spiga of the Dynamic Meteorology Laboratory at Sorbonne University in Paris. "Without a passing vortex, the winds are more typically between about 4-20 miles per hour (2-10 meters per second), depending on time of day."

For InSight, Dust Cleanings Will Yield New Science

That is a large pressure drop and 63 Mph is a F0 tornado on Earth.

Preliminary reports include insights that suggest the massive dust storms could have impacted Martian water, winds, and climate in the past and how they might influence future weather and solar power generation on the planet. Scientists say that the global dust storms may explain how the lakes, rivers, and possible oceans that evidence has been found of could have disappeared.

Mars’ giant dust storms could be behind the planet’s water loss

Do they really think Mars was covered with dust when there was water on the surface? I would think Mars only got dusty after most of it's water was locked-up underground.

Recently, Essam Heggy, a research scientist at the University of Southern California and NASA’s Jet Propulsion Laboratory, and Abotalib Z. Abotalib, a postdoctoral research associate at USC, suggested that the flows are triggered not by near-surface water but rather from deep below the surface.

“We propose an alternative hypothesis, that they originate from a deep, pressurized groundwater source, which comes to the surface, moving upward along ground cracks," said Heggy.

Martian water may come from deep reservoirs

While NASA’s InSight Mars mission is primarily focused on collecting data from the Red Planet’s interior, the lander recently trained one of its cameras on the Martian horizon, capturing a series of sunrise and sunset images.

NASA’s InSight lander views Martian sunrise, sunset

a reply to: LookingAtMars

Do they really think Mars was covered with dust when there was water on the surface? I would think Mars only got dusty after most of it's water was locked-up underground.

But why was it locked underground?

Dust storms are not the only mechanism thought to have led to the desiccation of Mars (photolysis and mineral hydration is thought to have played a part as well), but they don't seem to have helped the situation. Bad turned worse.
www.theregister.co.uk...

a reply to: Phage

But why was it locked underground?

Would gravity be the reason?

Cracks opening, water escaping underground?

a reply to: highvein

The existence of the underground water is still somewhat speculative, as would be any notion of how it got there I suppose. Underground water on Earth isn't very mysterious but as far as being "locked" there for billions of years, who knows?

However, on Mars, the evidence for subglacial water at the poles is much stronger and not so mysterious.

a reply to: Phage

I thought the solar wind stripped all the water away.

a reply to: LookingAtMars

Not all of it, obviously, there is water ice at the poles that we've known about for a while. Snow, even.

Ringwoodite.
Given the density and size of mars it could (and likely does) exist there.
www.popularmechanics.com...

After the water seeped into the deep rock, it never returned to the surface due to the density of the amphibole rock that the water moved into. This geology, plus Mars' smaller size, have kept the water trapped beneath the surface for billions of years. "On early Earth, hydrated crustal rocks would tend to be less dense than their anhydrous equivalents, meaning they would ‘float’ near the surface until they have lost their water. This provided a return path for surface water back to the surface of early Earth," says Wade. "On Mars it was the opposite story—hydrous, dense rocks would have tended to sink, locking the water away in the upper mantle." Because Mars is cold and not terribly geologically active, it's unlikely, Wade says, that any aquifers of water persist in the upper mantle, though he is uncertain if liquid water might survive at deeper levels. It paints a bleak picture for early Mars, but one that may well answer where the oceans of the Red Planet disappeared to.

a reply to: Phage

Of course not all of it...

Just the rivers, lakes and all the seas.

a reply to: LookingAtMars

Yup. Also the atmosphere. The atmosphere is also very dry.

However, it appears that the cold ion outflow into the martian tail, due to the transfer of momentum from the solar wind to the ionospheric plasma, could have removed a global ocean with a depth of 10–70 m during the first ~150 million years after the Sun arrived at the ZAMS.

www.researchgate.net... ns

a reply to: Phage

And thin.

Very thin.

originally posted by: Phage
a reply to: highvein

The existence of the underground water is still somewhat speculative, as would be any notion of how it got there I suppose. Underground water on Earth isn't very mysterious but as far as being "locked" there for billions of years, who knows?

However, on Mars, the evidence for subglacial water at the poles is much stronger and not so mysterious.

It is suggested at there is massive amounts of water locked underground on earth. Seems that would protect water on Mars.

a reply to: Xtrozero

I understand that. But if you look at the what the theory of vast underground aquifers on Mars is based upon it seems to be a little problematic.

“We propose an alternative hypothesis, that they originate from a deep, pressurized groundwater source, which comes to the surface, moving upward along ground cracks," said Heggy.

This would be water from an aquifer which is billions of years old and unreplenished, unlike those of Earth. It's possible that those streaky things are evidence of liquid water, I guess. It's possible that those billions year old aquifers are still leaky, I guess. But a billion years is a long, long time.

originally posted by: Phage

This would be water from an aquifer which is billions of years old and unreplenished, unlike those of Earth. It's possible that those streaky things are evidence of liquid water, I guess. It's possible that those billions year old aquifers are still leaky, I guess. But a billion years is a long, long time.

I agree, whatever water is on Mars is not leaking in anyway. There might be some on the poles, but I even doubt that too.

a reply to: Xtrozero

Water at the poles is there, no doubt, in the form of ice. Highly probably in liquid form beneath the ice.

Interesting! Mars is a weird place to be sure.

I don't know a lot about Mars, but it's interesting to read about.

originally posted by: Phage
a reply to: LookingAtMars

Do they really think Mars was covered with dust when there was water on the surface? I would think Mars only got dusty after most of it's water was locked-up underground.

But why was it locked underground?

Dust storms are not the only mechanism thought to have led to the desiccation of Mars (photolysis and mineral hydration is thought to have played a part as well), but they don't seem to have helped the situation. Bad turned worse.
www.theregister.co.uk...

Was it not able to stay in pools on the surface because water can't survive in that atmosphere with a small to no Magnetic field to hold the atmosphere in close?

Possibly and based on what I have read, we have some Scientist who think that Mars had a big hit and the atmosphere was blown off during that event that was the death blow to the possible life on Mars?

There is a Myth - Venus may have been a roge planet .

Many Myths have Venus Being BORN from Jupiter and another god .
One myth talks about Venus having Horns ( OR A TAIL ) .

So lets say for a mint Venus is not from here and was captured by the suns gravity .
Well the orbit is ended up in means it passed all planets . Now as its coming in it gets very close to mars ( close enough that charges pass between the planets and a lightning bolt Thor himself would have been proud of crossed between the planets .

Gouging out the Biggest canon EVER . ( looking the the entire canon it has the pattern there would be IF it had been done by lighting )

Well atmosphere would have been striped away water its self broken down to its basic elements .

Any other evidence . Well Venus has MORE heat then can be accounted for by its make up or how far it is from the sun .
In other words it is hotter then it should be .
Now being slowed down and captured into orbit would be one heck of alot of energy transferred . Like a car riding its brakes Venus would have GOTTEN hot very very hot . the kind of hot that takes millions of years to cool off hot .
And this is just what you see when studying Venus .

Now this may be all wrong no real proof But sure is alot of circumstantial evidence .
Ps we know for sure mars got hit by something BIG a meteor or comet making a hole BIG enough to put some country's in .
In ether case you could have had a NICE planet with flowing water life then BAM or ZAP OR BOTH and poor mars .
BUT even if mars was not hit its end would have still been the same it would have just taken a few 100 million more years .
Once its core cooled it started lousing its magnetic field and yes solar winds would have striped away the atmosphere regardless of out side influences .

Its kind of sad immange if it had been just a LITTLE bigger right now we could be shooting at our nebiers lol.

originally posted by: Justoneman

Possibly and based on what I have read, we have some Scientist who think that Mars had a big hit and the atmosphere was blown off during that event that was the death blow to the possible life on Mars?

The earth had a rather big hit too ripping out our moon and it didn't wipe out our atmosphere, so I'm not sure about that theory. I'll just go with the cooling of the core leading to the loss of its magnetic field to have the atmosphere slowly bleed off, but then one needs to question why did its core solidify.

that hit was even before earth had become solid it was still lifeless hot lava planet .
What every atmosphere earth may have had at the time was changed and redone many times so much so earth was a different planet by the time life showed up .
Ps that is assuming the MOON was ripped from earth which I dont think is correct as what it is made out of DOES NOT match earth .

there is no proof of that theory BUT there is some proof it may have been captured .

originally posted by: Flyingclaydisk
I don't know a lot about Mars, but it's interesting to read about.

I've been looking at the images for a few years now, and it still fascinates me that so much of it is still raw and broken and shattered, because even with light wind and dust, after a few million years it would kind of smooth everything out, but that's not what is in the images. It looks like every now and then the place just gets hammered and busted to pieces by meteorites or who knows what else. Maybe it's periodical, but that's really hard to determine since we still don't know anything about sediment deposit rates.

Sometimes I wonder when the last real rain fell on Mars. It might not have been that long ago. The last time it really got pounded by meteorites enough to leave liquid water, maybe.