All Those Tiny White Dots in Mind-Blowing New Hubble Photo Are Actually Galaxies

Double post, sorry Admins.

originally posted by: fleabit
That I'm sorry to say, is hilarious. We are basically at the amoeba stage as far as technology goes.

It's not about our own level of technological development, it's about theirs. If we assume for the sake of argument that we're neither the first nor the last technological civilization to pop up in the universe, then we can also assume that while a small percentage of them might be at exactly the same level of development as we are, there are probably at least some that are far, far in advance of us. And even if they're able to travel at only a fraction of light speed, if they were properly motivated it would take them a relatively short time to visit all the potentially life-bearing planets in at least this galaxy, and likely most of the others. And if there were more than one of them out there, that makes it even more probable.

But even as our technology develops and we look farther and farther away from Earth, there is no clear indication of anybody ever having done that. There are whole bunch of reasons why that might be, and they're all gone over in great detail by Issac Arthur in his YouTube series, which you can find here:
Issac Arthur Web Series

The thing is, as illustrated by the Hubble photo, as Douglas Adams put it:

“Space is big. You just won't believe how vastly, hugely, mind-bogglingly big it is. I mean, you may think it's a long way down the road to the chemist's, but that's just peanuts to space.” ― Douglas Adams, The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy

originally posted by: Sookiechacha

originally posted by: putnam6

originally posted by: gortex
a reply to: Zcustosmorum

Given the scale of the Universe I'd find it more terrifying being alone than not TBH , that would just be the craziest quirk of the Universe ever.

That would mean we aren't anything but a fluke form of a bacterium, where the absolute right conditions, heat, water nutrients must exist in a certain ratio, for us to evolve.

Or, it could mean that life develops under whatever conditions are available.

I was referring to the post that us being alone would be more frightening than the possibilities of other sentient beings

a reply to: Flyingclaydisk

Of course these are just opinions, we have big brains in this kingdom.... But on average across the cosmos we may actually have tiny brains.
If there are more intelligent life out there, much more evolved! Then they are here, if not and there is nothing out there, then we are Gods, first planet to evolve life. So yeah either were alone or not equally terrifying/exciting.

originally posted by: fleabit
...We are basically at the amoeba stage as far as technology goes.

That all depends on how long an average technological civilization lasts. Our civilization has been around for about 30,000 to 50,000 years, depending on how you define when our civilization started. Our human species of "Home sapiens" has been around for about 225,000 years.

We have no ide how long a technological civilization lasts before it dies out -- and I think technological civilizations can in fact die out and for many reasons, among them just plain "old age". Other ways might be more catastrophic (their star goes nova, etc).

That's not saying that the entire alien species would die out -- just their technological civilization. The species itself might live on but living in a dark age, even scattered among a few planets. The point is that if we don't know how long the average civilization lasts, we don't know how far along we are compared to the average civilization.

Granted, if civilizations normally last 5 million year, then there would have been several with a head stat who are still around, and might be 4 million years more advanced than us.

However, if the average civilization only lasts maybe a few hundred thousand years, then many of the ones who got the million-year head start have already died out, and the ones that are left are probably about the same as us or maybe only a few tens of thousands of years ahead.

Sure -- tens of thousands of years is a lot when it comes to technology, but it isn't when it comes to evolution, so we may NOT seem like amoeba or ants to them. Maybe they'd see our technology as backwards, but they might recognize us as a sentient, sapient, and intelligent species

originally posted by: Soylent Green Is People
That all depends on how long an average technological civilization lasts. Our civilization has been around for about 30,000 to 50,000 years, depending on how you define when our civilization started. Our human species of "Home sapiens" has been around for about 225,000 years.

As far as we can determine, our technological civilization has really only been around for 10,000 years or so, and we have the capability of destroying it either on purpose or by accident. That's a pretty tiny window of opportunity to either seek out or be found by another civilization.

But then again, the numbers would suggest that if there are any civilizations out there at all, there should have been at least a few that could beat the odds and survive and spread through the galaxy / universe in such a way that they would be obvious even to us given our currently level of technology.

There are a lot of probable reasons why we haven't seen any, but except maybe for the Ancient Aliens crowd, most of us agree that we have not.

a reply to: Blue Shift

Maybe spreading through the galaxy is do difficult to be practically impossible.

I say "practically impossible", but maybe a few who have beaten the odds do spread through their galaxy. Maybe at least one civilization did so in our galaxy, but it did so a few million years ago, and themselves only lasted for 1 million years -- so they are long dead. Maybe another did it 20 million years ago, and then died out.

In fact there may have been many in our galaxy who have done so in the past billion years (and a billion years is only 1/4 of the age of our planet), but none happen to still be around right now. Maybe many more will do it in the future.

That idea allows for many civilizations to "beat the odds" and spread through the galaxy, while at the same time it being quite rare that any exist at this moment at the same time as our civilization, when long galactic timescales are considered.

originally posted by: looneylupinsrevenge

originally posted by: Flyingclaydisk

originally posted by: gallop

originally posted by: gortex
a reply to: Zcustosmorum

Given the scale of the Universe I'd find it more terrifying being alone than not TBH , that would just be the craziest quirk of the Universe ever.

There is no possible chance that we are alone. None.

Yes, yes there is. And furthermore, it's almost a certainty. However, in order to understand, you first have to define "we" and "alone". If you are in the middle of the Indian Ocean, by yourself, on a sinking sailboat, are you alone? When you say "we", do you mean an entity with two arms, two legs a torso and a head? Does an entity with no physical form at all count as "we"?

It stands to reason that there are other planets so well ready for life to exist. One in infinity? Impossible.

That we even exist, proves that probability.

No, it only proves we exist in a physical form on planet Earth at a certain point in time.

I know I know, there is a secret algorithm that they use to denounce the concept.. well not secret, but still.. may as well be. Drake may as well be a broken record.

It's not secret. It's quite simple really. If ET exists we would have discovered him by now. Does this mean ET doesn't exist? No, but if he does we don't recognize him and very likely never will.

But will we ever meet our distant neighbours? Will we even ever speak face to face to someone across this globe?

Almost certainly not. (with a probability of about 99.999%)

I believe there are countless planets, filled with rich cultures and species, vastly different to what we know. a plethora of life forms, existing, wondering the same...

Countless planets, yes. Filled with rich cultures and species, debatable. Vastly different to what we know, absolutely. A plethora of life forms, define "life form". Existing, wondering the same..., highly unlikely.

Is there anything like us, out there.

No.

Sorry but I'm calling complete bullsnip on your above post. There is far to many systems let alone planets out there for us to be the only sentient life in existence, plain and simple. Years ago I had very same debate with another poster on this site, if you break it down even in our own galaxy there should be 1000+ sentient life forms in existence. Now take that to the next step and apply it to the Trillions upon Trillions (I repeat TRILLIONS) of galaxies out there and any argument against it simply falls apart.

As to the thought that we should have found them by now, again complete bullsnip! The farthest our radio signals have traveled is only about 100 light years, and at that distance it would be near impossible to discern them from the background radiation. Plus, in order for them to receive and return a transmission they would have to be on the same technological plane we are. If they instead developed quantum entanglement before radio waves, or some yet unknown form of communication then they may never even notice our signals. It is our over inflated ego's and limited thought processes that prevent us from seeing that possibility. We are used to being number 1, on our planet, so it's hard for us to accept that there could be others who are far more advanced or whose thinking is so vastly different to ours that we would go without notice.

Seriously, I can't even find a quarter when I lose it in the couch, and we're supposed to find alien life in a galaxy far away within the few years that we've had almost capable technology? Riiiight.

a reply to: gortex

Certainly impressive.

The magnitude of our universe is so impressive that it is like we are back to when we had everything figured out, we didn't need the wheel, the car, the plane, the internet and yet here we are. We cannot yet fathom our future, as our future is made up of dreams and aspirations which succeed and also collapse as we move forward to a future even we cannot see. We stumble into our future developing inventions and technology that the last person left us feeding for and thus it will take many years to get there, however it is clear, a universe this big and this old. Some are already our present and past and future and it would seem traveling the stars will soon become the norm.

originally posted by: gortex
That's 265,000 Galaxies and billions of years in one picture...

And that's just one viewable area of Space. We are literally incapable of comprehending the absolute grand scale of the known Universe let alone the unknown Universe.

And there are people who truly believe Earth is the only planet with intelligent life. It is this one thought that boggles my mind the most. How could any semi-rational person not look at that picture and theoretically "see" the endless multitude of other already inhabited planets?

I look at that picture and realize we (mankind) know absolutely nothing. The amount of data yet to be discovered held in that one picture alone proves how adolescent and ignorant we are as a species.

Now imagine Webb space telescope taking a picture like that, but with greater resolution and greater exposure time. There are probably trillions more galaxies that would become visible.

originally posted by: Soylent Green Is People
Maybe spreading through the galaxy is so difficult to be practically impossible.

That is absolutely the case. There are a number of ways to do it, but when it comes to human beings colonizing the galaxy most of the "solutions" require so much power and resources that we might as well just enclose the Earth and steer it somewhere we want to go. Unless we can figure out a way around the light speed barrier, it'll take generations to get anywhere even close by universal standards.

We could send our AI offspring. They would have a better chance of survival than us squishy meatbags. But that's them and we're us. Self-replicating machines are an option, and maybe an alien civilization thought of those, too. But again, there doesn't seem to be any indication that any alien machine like that has been here. Maybe a tiny little Bracewell probe landed and printed out some DNA that eventually evolved into us, but there's no indication of that, either.

The stars look so close. Even the closest ones are definitely not.

originally posted by: 1point92AU
And there are people who truly believe Earth is the only planet with intelligent life. It is this one thought that boggles my mind the most. How could any semi-rational person not look at that picture and theoretically "see" the endless multitude of other already inhabited planets?

Show me one with life on it other than Earth.

For the record, and to clarify some earlier posts (and to respond to some of the snarky replies), I have no doubt there are other forms of what might loosely be equated with "life" in the broadest of interpretations. And, to be clear, I don't believe mankind is some sort of privileged life form in the universe which has been 'annointed' the title of being the only intelligent life...far from it. Mankind is insignificant (completely) in the scheme of the universe. We are just a single chemical permutation in a vast ocean of possibilities, and our influence on the universe is completely irrelevant.

My point has been, and continues to be, when people say "intelligent life" they make so many assumptions about what these lifeforms will be like. For example, on the subject of ET most people assume life will have a physical form. Any enduring and sustainable life form in the universe will not likely have a physical form. Just this simple factor alone would make it almost impossible for mankind to comprehend let alone interact with such a life form in a meaningful way. Practically any sentence a person can construct in a discussion about ET is chalked full of assumptions. Things like individuality, most people naturally assume other life forms will have individuals, and this very likely is not the case. It may be some form of energy with a collective intelligence and no physical form. People talk about 'interacting' with ET like we're all going to sit in a conference room together and exchange ideas. Not going to happen. It's either happened already and we didn't realize it, or it's not ever going to happen during the existence of mankind.

ET could be a virus, an electrical force, or a magnetic field, or a group of photons, it could be sub-atomic from our perspective (or we could be sub-atomic from its perspective). ET could exist everywhere all at the same time, and not hail from a single solar system or planet. ET could be a collection of galaxies functioning as a team. ET could be a negative force, or an inverse reality. Even these statements are full of human mind constrained assumptions.

Humans are selfish creatures for the most part. We assume because we exist on a planet in a solar system which is part of a galaxy then all ET's must do the same. They must be like us. This is why I said in my first response..."define alone"

There are objects in the universe which affect other objects from hundreds of millions of light years away, and we have no idea for certain what these objects are. Things like quasars and pulsars, we can only theorize about. People say they're not being closed minded when they discuss ET. They say they could accept ET if he was 12' feet tall or shaped like a lizard. These are heavily constrained assumptions. But could they accept ET if it was tens of thousands of light years across and not an individual? Could they accept ET if he was found to be a molecule of their DNA?

Bottom line...does ET exist? Probably, but not in a way mankind is ever going to understand.

Flame away.

a reply to: Flyingclaydisk

Bottom line...does ET exist? Probably, but not in a way mankind is ever going to understand.

True, if the unexplained UFO reports from the last few hundred years are accurate i.e. are extra-terrestrial craft/entities, furthermore of not just one kind, but many, then chances are that most of them don't seem to want anything to do with us anyway. Perhaps it is because they know we will never understand.

On the flip side however, using the same hypothesis, there's still a good chance that some forms of ET could be like us in many ways we could understand.

Like the white dots in the OP, endless possibilities

originally posted by: Zcustosmorum
On the flip side however, using the same hypothesis, there's still a good chance that some forms of ET could be like us in many ways we could understand.

I agree. Animal life of Earth bas been around for almost 1 billion years, and we would still recognize that first animal life from a billion years ago.

Life in the universe will have all different starting points -- some billions of years older than our life, but some that had its start at roughly the same time as us. Therefore, I think there are examples of life -- even intelligent life -- out there that we would be able to recognize and understand as life.

I think the next step past recognizable "animal-style" life (for lack of a better term, and I include humans in that group) that is similar to life as we know it, even if it has a very different shape than we are accustomed to, would be cyborg-type life. That kind of life might be "animal-style" life that uploaded its consciousness into machines.

That would be very different from us, but still I think we would recognize it as intelligent life.

originally posted by: TOMFROMOZ
Perspective can be absolutely mind obliterating!!

If the Moon Were Only 1 Pixel

Yes its a little like this thread I did..

How Our Sky Would Look If Andromeda was Brighter

a reply to: Flyingclaydisk

I agree with you. There could be intelligent life so outside of our concept of it and so very different that we just would not recognise it as such if we found it.

OK, not intelligent life (as far as we know...) but forget Blue Whales and Elephants:

The Largest lLving Thing On Earth is a Humungous Fungus

There could be intelligent life that may not even have to rely on technology. Who knows?

Statistically, there must be life out there but maybe they are just not interested in us? Our vanity makes us certain that they would be but perhaps they just aren't? Or perhaps we are quarantined for our own good, or, perhaps, theirs?

As it is now, the only kind of intelligence we even partially understand is human intelligence, and we don't really even have a good handle on what that's all about in the first place. I've mentioned half-jokingly that we have probably already been subsumed in electronic AI intelligence -- with nearly every aspect of human society now locked into and controlled by the telecommunications grid -- but we just don't recognize it for what it is. It's only a half-joke.

But it's very difficult to imagine what an alien intelligence might consist of when all we have to work with is our own intelligence. You start with the senses and see how an organism (or similar) reacts to its environment. Intelligence would be displayed by it making specific choices to improve its survival chances. But what would that look like if an alien could "see time" or was part of a larger psi-linked hive mind? We can only guess, and poorly.

Because aliens are (at least at the moment) merely hypothetical and despite the huge number of stars and planets out there, may not even exist at all.

a reply to: Blue Shift

Most of us, who haven't claimed to see aliens, are at least open to the idea because it would be just horrible to be the only sentient scientifically oriented beings in such a vast expanse of natural beauty.