a reply to: lightofgratitude
The point of my comment was explaining the text used in the OP to support the Pagan* Trinitarian philosophy you ascribe to it, without the Trinitarian
glasses on. *: derived from Pagan ideas of Triune Gods, or Triads and the Platonic trinity.
The main point is summarized in the sentence right after discussing the context:
Jesus perfectly reflects the Father’s personality (see also Col 1:15); hence, living with and observing Jesus is like seeing the
Unlike the doctrine of the Trinity, this understanding fits with the rest of the Bible. What's the point in just repeating that text about seeing the
Father again in response to my comment? It's not going to make the Trinity any more of a biblibal doctrine than it was. There's also not much point in
switching to other Bible texts that Trinitarians appeal to or twist to make it appear it supports their teachings or their beliefs (eisegesis, reading
their philosophies derived from Pagan philosophies into the text), as a supposed response to my comment that is. It doesn't seem you're interested in
anything I have to say about it or the Bible texts I'm quoting in support of my argumentation or actually responding to any of it (you 'talk' as if
you didn't even see it, or registered it, your response is not a response to what already was a response to you bringing up those texts from John 14).
Now... I could respond to the other 3 texts you used now, but there's little point if you're as stubborn as these people about it, Isaiah 65:1,2:
“I have let myself be searched for by those who did not ask for me;
I have let myself be found by those who did not look for me.
I said, ‘Here I am, here I am!’ to a nation that was not calling on my name.
2 I have spread out my hands all day long to a stubborn people,
To those walking in the way that is not good,
Following their own thoughts;
Regarding the way I phrased a few things at the start of this comment:
Cardinal John O’Connor stated about the Trinity: “We know that it is a very profound mystery, which we don’t begin to understand.” Why is the
Trinity so difficult to understand?
The Illustrated Bible Dictionary
gives one reason. Speaking of the Trinity, this publication admits: “It is not a biblical doctrine in the
sense that any formulation of it can be found in the Bible.” Because the Trinity is “not a biblical doctrine,” Trinitarians have been
desperately looking for Bible texts—even twisting them—to find support for their teaching. But none of that behaviour (or demonstrating the
effects of being indoctrinated with it) makes the Trinity any more a biblical doctrine than it was.
According to the Nouveau Dictionnaire Universel
, “The Platonic trinity, itself merely a rearrangement of older trinities dating back to
earlier peoples, appears to be the rational philosophic trinity of attributes that gave birth to the three hypostases or divine persons taught by the
Christian churches. . . . This Greek philosopher’s [Plato, fourth century B.C.E.] conception of the divine trinity . . . can be found in all the
ancient [pagan] religions.”—(Paris, 1865-1870), edited by M. Lachâtre, Vol. 2, p. 1467.
John L. McKenzie, S.J., in his Dictionary of the Bible
, says: “The trinity of persons within the unity of nature is defined in terms of
‘person’ and ‘nature’ which are G[ree]k philosophical terms; actually the terms do not appear in the Bible. The trinitarian definitions arose
as the result of long controversies in which these terms and others such as ‘essence’ and ‘substance’ were erroneously applied to God by some
theologians.”—(New York, 1965), p. 899.
What evidence points to the identity of Babylon the Great, referred to in Revelation? Ancient Babylonian religious concepts and practices are found in
“Egypt, Persia, and Greece felt the influence of the Babylonian religion . . . The strong admixture of Semitic elements both in early Greek
mythology and in Grecian cults is now so generally admitted by scholars as to require no further comment. These Semitic elements are to a large extent
more specifically Babylonian.”—The Religion of Babylonia and Assyria
(Boston, 1898), M. Jastrow, Jr., pp. 699, 700.
Their gods: There were triads of gods, and among their divinities were those representing various forces of nature and ones that exercised special
influence in certain activities of mankind. (Babylonian and Assyrian Religion
, Norman, Okla.; 1963, S. H. Hooke, pp. 14-40)
The Bible tells of many gods and goddesses that people worshiped, including Ashtoreth, Milcom, Chemosh, and Molech. (1 Kings 11:1, 2, 5, 7) Even many
people in the ancient nation of Israel once believed that Baal was the true God. So Jehovah’s prophet Elijah presented the challenge: “If Jehovah
is the true God, go following him; but if Baal is, go following him.”—1 Kings 18:21.
The worship of pagan gods grouped in threes, or triads, was also common before Jesus was born. In the Encyclopædia of Religion and Ethics
James Hastings wrote: “In Indian religion, e.g., we meet with the trinitarian group of Brahmā, Siva, and Viṣṇu; and in Egyptian religion with
the trinitarian group of Osiris, Isis, and Horus.”
Throughout the ancient world, as far back as Babylonia, the worship of pagan gods grouped in threes, or triads, was common. That influence was also
prevalent in Egypt, Greece, and Rome in the centuries before, during, and after Christ. And after the death of the apostles, such pagan beliefs began
to invade Christianity.
Historian Will Durant observed in The Story of Civilization: Part III
, page 595: “Christianity did not destroy paganism; it adopted it. . . .
From Egypt came the ideas of a divine trinity.”
In An Encyclopedia of Religion
, edited by Vergilius Ferm, 1964, on pages 793 and 794, under the word “triad,” are listed the trinities of
the Babylonian, Buddhist, Hindu, Norse, Taoist, and other religions, as well as those of Christendom. As an example, it notes that in India, “the
great Triad include Brahma, the Creator, Vishnu, the Preserver and Shiva, the Destroyer. These represent the cycle of existence, just as the
Babylonian triad of Anu, Enlil and Ea represent the materials of existence, air, water, earth.”
And in the book Egyptian Religion
, Siegfried Morenz notes: “The trinity was a major preoccupation of Egyptian theologians . . . Three gods
are combined and treated as a single being, addressed in the singular. In this way the spiritual force of Egyptian religion shows a direct link with
Thus, in Alexandria, Egypt, churchmen of the late third and early fourth centuries, such as Athanasius, reflected this influence as they formulated
ideas that led to the Trinity. Their own influence spread, so that Morenz considers “Alexandrian theology as the intermediary between the Egyptian
religious heritage and Christianity.”
In the preface to Edward Gibbon’s History of Christianity
, we read: “If Paganism was conquered by Christianity, it is equally true that
Christianity was corrupted by Paganism. The pure Deism of the first Christians . . . was changed, by the Church of Rome, into the incomprehensible
dogma of the trinity. Many of the pagan tenets, invented by the Egyptians and idealized by Plato, were retained as being worthy of
edit on 25-4-2019 by whereislogic because: (no reason given)