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WAR: Patriot Act II. Update

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posted on Mar, 3 2005 @ 11:40 AM
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Originally posted by soficrow

JEEZ.

I have posted and reposted this information. Learn to READ troll.





NORTHCOM. U.S. Northern Command – new combatant command assigned to defend the United States and support military assistance to civil authorities.

www.defenselink.mil...

..............

"On April 17, 2002, Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld announced the formation of the Northern Command, or NorthCom...

Secretary Rumsfeld stated that NorthCom will "…help the department better deal with natural disasters, attacks on U.S. soil, or other civil difficulties. It will provide for a more coordinated military support to civil authorities such as FBI, FEMA and state and local governments." "

www.ccc.nps.navy.mil...



Nowhere does it say in there that Northcom will take over civil authorities Soficrow....and yes please, do learn how to read....



Originally posted by soficrow
Now GO AWAY!


Ouch...now i am hurt.... You don't love me anymore soficrow?......




posted on Mar, 3 2005 @ 11:49 AM
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Originally posted by Mahree
We need this kind of research, Muaddib

I have voted Muaddib for the Way Above Top Secret award.

..........
I am looking at the "600 Concentration camps on US soil" . After reading up on the prior threads I'm not sure any of it has been proved at all. Ats members looking at individually named sites have come up empty.
..........


Thanks for your vote.


I have heard about those camps too, but pretty much all that i have seen have been rumors around the internet. I think that if it was true, it would have made it to the more liberal news media. But a more serious research should be done, to either find some evidence in favor of this or finally find out if it is another hoax.



posted on Mar, 3 2005 @ 11:51 AM
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.
.
Who pays your salary maudib?

Why do you consistently sabotage discussion about current policies? You divert, distract, play games - but you don't participate.



For those who can get past maudib's communication manipulation strategies:

Viewed as a package, the Patriot Act, NAFTA and NORTHCOM are the mechanisms by which the corporate takeover of the USA and all of North America is virtually assured.

NAFTA's terms stipulate that governments MUST negotiate directly with international corporations. ...Who do you think is representing your interests?



.


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[edit on 3-3-2005 by soficrow]



posted on Mar, 3 2005 @ 11:52 AM
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Muaddib
regardless of how many links you post...
i have ALREADY posted some factual abuses of these increased powers (that you said would not occur)
and have outlayed how they will be attached to other "criminal pursuits" outside of terrorism...
not such a bad thing, except that a majority of Americans did not consider those other "criminal pursuits" to be very criminal. (drug war)

The opportunity for abuse is high... and we can already see how it has been abused... (combination of factors)

it is true that much is just speculation now as to the possibility of an "uber authority". but that is the purpose of the thread...

sofi is just saying "that there is a very good chance of abuse, with this new uber authority "
and you are saying "no there isn't"
and I have already shown... "yes there is... look at the examples"

you can smack fact if you want... but until you can explain the actions of this new breed of "loose FBI cannons" then YOU are embracing ignorance...

there is no explaination other than an "attitude" of competition at any cost among this new breed...
and has been pointed out... "with almost no oversight or responsibility" from false arrests/accusations.

this is an example of what sofi is saying...



posted on Mar, 3 2005 @ 11:57 AM
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Originally posted by soficrow
.
.
Who pays your salary maudib?

Why do you consistently sabotage discussion about current policies? You divert, distract, play games - but you don't participate.



For those who can get past maudib's communication manipulation strategies, viewed as a package, the Patriot Act, NAFTA and NORTHCOM are the mechanisms by which the corporate takeover of the USA and all of North America is virtually assured.

NAFTA's terms stipulate that governments MUST negotiate directly with international corporations. ...Who do you think is representing yuor interests?


So i am a government agent now?....


The government does not pay me soficrow, and much less to say what i think or what I do.... There, of course you are not going to believe me because you already made up your mind that all you have said is true...


Yes, soficrow, keep trying to hypnotize people with your debunked information....

i am in search of the truth....but that to you doesn't mean anything, you are trying to bash and blame the government no matter what. When you started posting in these forums you yourself said why you had a grudge agaisnt the government.....and why you blamed the government....

Your agenda agaisnt the government was divulged by no other than yourself....


[edit on 3-3-2005 by Muaddib]



posted on Mar, 3 2005 @ 12:00 PM
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For those who can get past maudib's communication manipulation strategies:

Viewed as a package, the Patriot Act, NAFTA and NORTHCOM are the mechanisms by which the corporate takeover of the USA and all of North America is virtually assured.

NAFTA's terms stipulate that governments MUST negotiate directly with international corporations.

...Who do you think is representing your interests?



posted on Mar, 3 2005 @ 12:01 PM
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Originally posted by soficrow
.............
...Who do you think is representing your interests?



You with your lies and exagerations?....
Please.....



posted on Mar, 3 2005 @ 12:06 PM
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Viewed as a package, the Patriot Act, NAFTA and NORTHCOM are the mechanisms by which the corporate takeover of the USA and all of North America is virtually assured.

NAFTA's terms stipulate that governments MUST negotiate directly with international corporations.

...Who do you think is representing your interests at the negotiating table?



.



posted on Mar, 3 2005 @ 12:09 PM
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Was that a parrot on the background? or is that a recording?...





posted on Mar, 3 2005 @ 12:59 PM
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I heard some guy named Ian Spiers, a photography student from Seattle, found himself heavily surrounded by armed law enforcement officers last May after he took photographs of the Ballard Locks in his area. The FEDs told him it was illegal to photograph federal property, finger printed him, took his picture treating him like a criminal/terrorist.

Later they had to appoligize since no rule or law of photographing locks exist.

The Patriot Act is a serious power grab the government will never relinquish sending society back to pre-911 era.



posted on Mar, 3 2005 @ 01:01 PM
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quote: U.S. Northern Command is not the police auxiliary and does not supersede the "first responder" role of lead federal agencies.
..................
Given these parameters, U.S. Northern Command does not:
Conduct law enforcement operations

The command's mission is homeland defense and civil support, specifically:
As directed by the President or Secretary of Defense, provide military assistance to civil authorities...


In theory, this organization is there to move supplies, help with decontamination, provide training for special situations, etc etc. But their website also is directly says that they are there to provide


equipment, expertise, manpower, plans, organization, communications, and training.

The manpower issue should speak for itself. Using troops the shore up police manpower basically. That's not legal. It's also not legal for the military to enforce drug laws as is mentioned in the quote I offer next- that's why the coast guard has to have special law enforcement units on its vessels for interdicting traffickers.
The expertise thing bugs me a little as well. For the most part, if the first responders are not trained for something but the military is, it's not something that should be done to our people.
Also it needs to be remembered that specifics and limitations that should be there are not. This command does in fact have the capability to speed law enforcement access to military hardware and tactical assisstance for operations such as Waco, TX.


Military civil support includes domestic disaster relief operations that occur during fires, hurricanes, floods, and earthquakes. Support also includes counter-drug operations and consequence management assistance, such as would occur after a terrorist event employing a weapon of mass destruction.



There is reason to be suspicious of Northcom. There is reason to demand greater restrictions on its powers. Have you seen The Siege, or Outbreak? Northcom creates a military command trained and dedicated to being prepared to do such things. Not only that, but Northcom creates an infrastructure for the SSB to cooperate with law enforcement. Do you want an SSB interrogator "providing expertise" to your local cops to find out if some stupid joke was serious or not? That could get REAL ugly, real quick.



posted on Mar, 3 2005 @ 01:30 PM
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Originally posted by The Vagabond

In theory, this organization is there to move supplies, help with decontamination, provide training for special situations, etc etc. But their website also is directly says that they are there to provide


equipment, expertise, manpower, plans, organization, communications, and training.

The manpower issue should speak for itself. Using troops the shore up police manpower basically. That's not legal. It's also not legal for the military to enforce drug laws as is mentioned in the quote I offer next- that's why the coast guard has to have special law enforcement units on its vessels for interdicting traffickers.

The expertise thing bugs me a little as well. For the most part, if the first responders are not trained for something but the military is, it's not something that should be done to our people.


I don't know exactly from where you got that quote, since i can't find it on their site, but the national guard has been in use for quite a long time to help areas which are hit by natural disasters... We have used military equipment through the National guard to help in such disasters...

The site does specifically say that Northcom does not supersede, in any way or form the civil first responders... they are the ones who have the expertise on these situations... but like the coast guard military manpower can be used to help the first responders in case there is a crisis.


Originally posted by The Vagabond
Also it needs to be remembered that specifics and limitations that should be there are not. This command does in fact have the capability to speed law enforcement access to military hardware and tactical assisstance for operations such as Waco, TX.


Waco Texas happened under the Democrat's watch....and so did the case of the Cuban child which was taken by force because the Democrats wanted to "maintain better relationships with the Cuban dictatorship.....

The site does mention the limitations of northcom and what they are there to do.....


Originally posted by The Vagabond

There is reason to be suspicious of Northcom. There is reason to demand greater restrictions on its powers. Have you seen The Siege, or Outbreak? Northcom creates a military command trained and dedicated to being prepared to do such things. Not only that, but Northcom creates an infrastructure for the SSB to cooperate with law enforcement. Do you want an SSB interrogator "providing expertise" to your local cops to find out if some stupid joke was serious or not? That could get REAL ugly, real quick.


You are basing your opinion because of a couple of movies....

Ok, have you seen "The Sum of all Fears"?..... or the movie "Volcano".... in both movies there was military help to the civilian first responders..mostly by supplying equipment and helos to combat the lava or finding and helping find people who were hurt.....and afterward the military did not take control of the US....

Northcom is there to help civic first responders...not to take the power away from them and control the US.

Oh and let's not foget one of my favourite movies... "Independence Day."

They also used the military to help the first responders....yet the military did not take over the US.... hey, you are the one basing your opinions because of movies.....


[edit on 3-3-2005 by Muaddib]



posted on Mar, 3 2005 @ 02:16 PM
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An Interesting Read from Dow Jones News:


"Is Military Creeping Into Domestic Law Enforcement?

IN A LITTLE-NOTICED side effect of the war on terrorism, the military is edging toward a sensitive area that has been off-limits to it historically: domestic intelligence gathering and law enforcement.

...Historically, Americans haven't trusted the military to do domestic police work. The 1878 Posse Comitatus Act, passed in response to abuses by federal troops in the South after the Civil War, prohibits the use of the military "to execute the laws" of the U.S. That's been widely interpreted as a ban on searching, arresting or spying on U.S. civilians by federal troops.

But the law has been violated, notably during the Vietnam War, when Army operatives spied on antiwar activists on campuses. Meanwhile, Congress has eased the law's limits to allow the military to help prosecute the war on drugs.

The issue of an expanding military role in domestic affairs also surfaced last year with the Pentagon's creation of the Northern Command, or Northcom, based in Colorado Springs, Colo. The new command, the first such military command designed to protect the U.S. homeland from a terrorist attack, has responsibility for the U.S, Canada, Mexico, portions of the Caribbean and U.S. coastal waters. Northcom's commander, Gen. Ralph "Ed" Eberhart, is the first general since the Civil War with operational authority exclusively over military forces within the U.S.

Gen. Eberhart has stoked concern among civil-liberties advocates by saying that the military and civilians should be involved in developing "actionable intelligence" for the government. In September 2002, he told a group of National Guardsmen that the military and the National Guard should "change our radar scopes" to prevent terrorism. It is important to "not just look out, but we're also going to have to look in," he said, adding, "we can't let culture and the way we've always done it stand in the way."

"What we are starting to see is 50 years of legal refinement and revisions for oversight being quietly jettisoned," adds Steven Aftergood, an intelligence policy specialist at the Federation of American Scientists, a nonprofit, left-leaning think tank in Washington."



Dow Jones

Also see: www.commondreams.org...


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posted on Mar, 3 2005 @ 03:10 PM
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Originally posted by Muaddib
I don't know exactly from where you got that quote, since i can't find it on their site,

www.northcom.mil...


but the national guard has been in use for quite a long time to help areas which are hit by natural disasters... We have used military equipment through the National guard to help in such disasters...


The national guard doesn't have it's own CIA attatched to it. The National guard is not a standing force- it is part-time. And perhaps above all, the national guard is decentralized. Northcom is a unified regular military command answering to the DoD and has access to the DoDs intelligence aparatus.


The site does specifically say that Northcom does not supersede, in any way or form the civil first responders... they are the ones who have the expertise on these situations...

Then why is one of Northcom's goals to provide expertise. Northcom clearly exists to supplement the ability of civil authorities to do things they are not normally trained or equipped for. At best this represents the undertraining and under-equipping of our civil authorities, which is nearly criminal in its own right. At the worst it represents preparation for the military and law enforcement to cooperate in activities in our country which more closely resemble military operation than law enforcement, also known as martial law.
There is absolutely no reason to establish this Northern command without instituting very specific and comprehensive rules which ensure that it can never be abused.


but like the coast guard military manpower can be used to help the first responders in case there is a crisis.

Except that the coast guard has a nice limited mission, which is exactly how it should be. By its very nature the coastguard can not threaten civil liberties in the way the army can. The army must be given additional restraints to keep it as benign as coastguard assisstance in law enforcement.


Waco Texas happened under the Democrat's watch....and so did the case of the Cuban child which was taken by force because the Democrats wanted to "maintain better relationships with the Cuban dictatorship.....

Apparently this is in response to that quote where I said "Only conservatives ever do anything bad for civil liberties"? (for those of you who aren't paying attention, I never said any such thing.) Neo-conservatism is making some serious mistakes in the name of corporate globalism, but they by no means have the market cornered. As I have said before, we hardly even have a two party system. We have a one party system divided in to parts. We've got a nationalist part and a socialist party. Put them together and what have we got? THATS RIGHT!



The site does mention the limitations of northcom and what they are there to do.....

Those limitations are grossly insufficient. They do not explicitly prevent assetts such as the SSB from working against US citizens for example.



You are basing your opinion because of a couple of movies....

Actually I was using movies to illustrate possible abuses of Northcom. I understand that you have no respect for me and would rather try to undermine me than have a real discussion, so I'm not surprised that you stooped to such a ridiculous mischaracterization of this illustration. You can be assured that I hold you in the same regard, although I would never degrade myself by twisting your words to avoid a legitimate arguement.


Ok, have you seen "The Sum of all Fears"?..... or the movie "Volcano".... in both movies there was military help to the civilian first responders..mostly by supplying equipment and helos to combat the lava or finding and helping find people who were hurt.....and afterward the military did not take control of the US....

And in both of those movies the military's role was logistical. Perhaps more importantly, in both of those illustrations the problem arose by complete surprise, necessitating the use of the only large standing force at the government's disposal. The very fact that we are planning and preparing to empower civil authorities for such circumstances means that we could just as easily train and equip civilian agencies in a mission specific way to prevent abuses and to ensure that the DoD doesn't mismanage funding and leave us unprepared. (for those of you who haven't been paying attention, the DoD was caught under-investing in armor while contractors in Iraq got away with highway robbery.)


Northcom is there to help civic first responders...not to take the power away from them and control the US.

Northcom is there to help the first responders do what they aren't trained and equipped to do. Northcom represents a needless redundancy and additional bureaucracy. It would be easier to just better train and equip the first responders directly. The only reason not to do so would be if this training and equipment was ultimately going to be used for something first responders aren't supposed to be able to do.



Oh and let's not foget one of my favourite movies... "Independence Day."

Yeah, that was a great one. The Secretary of Defense sat on classified information and watched a disaster unfold. That part probably isn't such a relevant illustration to be honest, but if it were it would illustrate that you can't trust the DoD as far as you can throw it.



hey, you are the one basing your opinions because of movies.....
[edit on 3-3-2005 by Muaddib]


Yeah you're right. I'm a total friggin numbskull. The movie gave me these ideas. I wasn't using it as an example, I wasn't just saying "hey, that was some awful stuff, and the bad things seen in that movie are similiar to the bad things that you could see if we let our military get too powerful and too independent." Why don't you just call my mother names next time; it couldn't be much less intelligent than what you're trying to do now.



posted on Mar, 3 2005 @ 04:04 PM
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just what is your point now muaddib?

because you have already failed to prove that "the patriot act WONT be abused"?

are are you just obsessed with attacking sofi?



posted on Mar, 3 2005 @ 05:49 PM
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Quote: "1 : the unlawful use or threat of violence esp. against the state or the public as a politically motivated means of attack or coercion
2 : violent and intimidating gang activity"

So then what is your take on the U.S. Government calling NON-VIOLENT Organizations =
"Terrorist Organizations"? Did you know that Bill O' Reilly called Protesters at the Republican National Convention last year "Terrorists" on Fox News Channel?!

Quote: "....when all else fails make it a Democrat vs. Republican thing.
Do you think all FBI, CIA, DHS, etc. agents are Republicans?"

Actually yes I believe that Most people in the Military & in various Intelligence Agencies (CIA, FBI, NSA, DIA & so on) are in fact Republicans! Did you miss that news story on ATSNN a while back - it was a call by a Republican Politician to REMOVE all "Liberal Democrats" or "Anti-Bush Policy" people from the CIA!

Quote: "I'm pretty sure I said that concerning the Encryption...
Why use Encryption if you have nothing to hide?"

Yeah - well maybe I just don't want the ENTIRE WORLD to know how much Money I have in my Bank Account & other Personal Information! You know we DO have the Rights as Americans to keep our Personal Information PRIVATE & out of the hands of the Government & Corporations! The Government & the Corporations get to use Encryption Technology - why not Lawful Citizens?!


My main point is that I don't want Police or Government Agents coming after me because from their Point of View I committed a "Thought Crime"!



[edit on 3-3-2005 by Seraphim_Serpente]

[edit on 3-3-2005 by Seraphim_Serpente]



posted on Mar, 3 2005 @ 06:11 PM
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Originally posted by Mahree
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GCE Fee


This link is from the same source as you quoted in above. GCE fee

Yes it is.You asked :

Originally posted by Mahree If this explanation of FOIA has changed does anyone have the information about when or how?


And I provided a link showing as an example the when or how applying for Federal Procurement Data under FOIA has changed.



INPUT is First to Offer Certified Integration of New Federal Procurement Data

INPUT - February 18, 2005

As of December 31, 2004, GCE and GSA made the federal procurement data available to the public at no charge - a momentous occasion in its own right,” said Ray Muslimani, president of GCE. “Now, we are excited to see INPUT extend this access to its clients by tapping into the FPDS-NG data via Web services technology. FPDS-NG is unique in its ability to integrate directly with systems inside and outside of the federal government. Government users of the system and the public alike can gain equal accessibility and visibility into federal spending.”


Does this mean that the FOIA is still alive and well?

Hmmm...why don't you tell me?



posted on Mar, 3 2005 @ 06:43 PM
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Originally posted by Seraphim_Serpente
So then what is your take on the U.S. Government calling NON-VIOLENT Organizations = "Terrorist Organizations"?

I am worried that this may happen, but if it has happened so far I am unaware of it (unless we are talking about Islamic charities which were usspected of funding terrorism). Are you asking about the possibility or are you saying ti has already started happening? I just gotta have my facts straight
.


Did you know that Bill O' Reilly called Protesters at the Republican National Convention last year "Terrorists" on Fox News Channel?!

Thank God he's not directly running this country. He's got a substantial number of people eating right out of his hand unfortunately, but thank god he isn't in charge.
I'm not the best person to ask about Bill O'Reilly though. I dislike him on a personal level because I think I can do his job better than he does. He is constantly trying to pin people down on minor points and letting them slide on the big ones. He doesn't seem to think on his feet very well- he goes into the interview with something to say and he says it, even if it isn't pertinent to the discussion which develops. If and when I finally get his job I'm going to have him back on the show as a guest and demonstrate for him how to properly hold your guest's feet to the fire.



Actually yes I believe that Most people in the Military & in various Intelligence Agencies (CIA, FBI, NSA, DIA & so on) are in fact Republicans! Did you miss that news story on ATSNN a while back - it was a call by a Republican Politician to REMOVE all "Liberal Democrats" or "Anti-Bush Policy" people from the CIA!


Just to be fair though, nothing would change if that wasn't the case. Clinton had more people killed than Ronald Reagan did remember. As far as I can tell, the two parties are one in the same. The Republicans are the nationalists so they're the ones who assemble the armies and such, but the Democrats are the big-government socialists who ultimately use those armies just as much as Republicans. Two sides to the same coin.



My main point is that I don't want Police or Government Agents coming after me because from their Point of View I committed a "Thought Crime"!

Arrested for thought crime? That'll be the good news brother. The bad news will be that those who don't get themselves in trouble for the terrorist act of dissent are going to find themselves living not as citizens but as assetts. In fact under the law we aren't even described as citizens anymore. Perhaps you've noticed that phrase "United States Person". Seems harmless, but think about it for a second, if you're not a citizen what exactly are you? Well, as a united states person, you are just one apostrophe away from becoming a possession of the state: a "united states' person".
Yeah I know, I'm an alarmist. I'm completely wrong. All of this is for our own good- the government is here to help us. Whatever. I suppose I could be wrong, and I'd like to be, but I'm paranoid for a pretty good reason as far as I'm concerned. The reasons are many, but I'll stick with a nice big visible one for now: Denver International Airport.




posted on Mar, 3 2005 @ 06:50 PM
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Concentration Camps on U.S. soil
By state.
www.abovetopsecret.com...

U.S. Concentation Camps, FEMA, and the REX 84 Program

U.S. CONCENTRATION CAMPS
FEMA AND THE REX 84 PROGRAM
www.abovetopsecret.com...

Also it was updated by SO.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Red Alert what it means



RED ALERT MEANS YOU WILL BE A PRISONER IN YOUR HOME AND THE SCHOOLS WILL KEEP YOU FROM YOUR CHILDREN, TAKING THEM TO "SECRET LOCATIONS"


www.infowars.com...

FEMA's unsavory marketing campagin towards.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Abuse under patriot act?




The last words of a sceptic!

New york lawyer Barbara Olshansky who was involved in anti patriot act suits is now stopped, strip searched, interogated and harrased everytime she flies!
She said "It is becoming a withchunt, at first i didn't belive it, BUT NOW! it is just horryfieng to me!"

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Tommy Franks: Martial Law Will Replace Constitution After Next Terror Attack
www.abovetopsecret.com...


California Concentration Camp/Facilities
www.abovetopsecret.com...

Red or Blue-What list will you be on?
www.abovetopsecret.com...

Stalag 17: American Style


Gen. Tommy Franks said in an interview that all it would take for America to fall under martial law is one more big terror attack. There are plans for civilian internment when that day comes.


www.abovetopsecret.com...

War on terror: Do you believe?
www.abovetopsecret.com...

U.S. CONCENTRATION CAMPS
www.abovetopsecret.com...

AboveTopSecret.com Articles about Secret Government Bases and Facilities
www.abovetopsecret.com...

Well I hope that this information will help some about how members before us has research and posted ideas and opinions of what is going on with our nation.



posted on Mar, 3 2005 @ 08:08 PM
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Originally posted by LazarusTheLong
just what is your point now muaddib?

because you have already failed to prove that "the patriot act WONT be abused"?

are are you just obsessed with attacking sofi?



Not really, so now people can't point when someone is presenting wrong information?... one has to be "obsessed with attacking another"....

We are in pursuit of the truth, are we not?.... not exagerations, hoaxes, or concocted lies.....



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