The Danger of Medicare For All

originally posted by: dfnj2015
a reply to: neoholographic

I agree with Bernie. The government has a role in reigning in the cartels and monopolies from destroying the American economy. How fast has healthcare premiums been rising compared to inflation. It's been about the same service for the last 20 years.

So you want a Government Monopoly over you and your families life? You want a Thanos sized Government telling you that you can't get the care that you want to provide for your family?

NO WAY!!

originally posted by: rickymouse
Socialized medicine is the best way, everyone covered for the basics. Now, there could be policies that people could buy for stuff like dental, eye glasses, plastic surgery, unnecessary tests not related to disease, so on so forth. If a person does not want to just have regular cancer treatment, they could buy some extra coverage on their own.

I think our healthcare here in America sucks, it is way overpriced and not as good as many other countries have. If you have the money then buy extra coverage. Right now only the rich can afford good pay all coverage or those with employers who pay for the good insurance, but remember, if those employers did not have to pay for that high priced insurance, they could boost what they pay to the employees.

There's no way Bernie's plan will work in America.

First, America has a population of 327 million as opposed to many of these other Countries with Universal Healthcare. Here's some of the Countries and their population.

Japan 377,930 km² 126,854,745 -0.26%
Germany 357,114 km² 82,438,639 0.18%
United Kingdom 242,900 km² 66,959,016 0.58%
France 551,695 km² 65,480,710 0.38%
Italy 301,336 km² 59,216,525 -0.13%
South Korea 100,210 km² 51,339,238 0.34%
Spain 505,992 km² 46,441,049 0.09%
Canada 9,984,670 km² 37,279,811 0.88%
Australia 7,692,024 km² 25,088,636 1.28%
Netherlands 41,850 km² 17,132,908 0.28%
Greece 131,990 km² 11,124,603 -0.16%
Portugal 92,090 km² 10,254,666 -0.35%
Sweden 450,295 km² 10,053,135 0.71%
Austria 83,871 km² 8,766,201 0.16%

worldpopulationreview.com...

This covers the area in kilometers, population and growth rate.

As you see, Japan has the largest population on the list with close to 127,000,000 then Germany.

Bernie is talking about getting rid of private insurance and then a Government with over 22 trillion in debt is going to insure 327,000,000 million people. It will never work.

Also, in the Countries with bigger populations, you can buy private insurance. In Japan for instance, based on household income you pay 10, 20, or 30% of your medical expenses and the Government pays the rest and you can buy private insurance to cover that 10, 20 or 30%

Germany gives you the option to buy the private insurance of your choice if the household makes over 60 grand a year.

Bernie wants America to go full Socialism where a bloated, behemoth sized Govt. that can't fix anything is going to be in charge of everyone's healthcare. That's just Dangerous especially as healthcare and society in general is becoming more decentralized because of science and technology.

You can visit Doctors and Therapist online and they can prescribe medicine.

I say we need Universal Healthcare Prevention to bring down healthcare costs, not Thanos sized Govt. in charge of everyone's healthcare.

A lot of healthcare is used because low income families that don't have Insurance wait until the last minute to get checked out and then a small problem balloons into a big problem and they need to use a lot of healthcare.

I have a cousin that was uninsured and he had an onset of diabetes and high blood pressure but he waited so long to go to the Hospital to get it treated properly, he had a stroke and now he's on Medicare and uses a lot of healthcare.

Prevention is the answer not a one size fits all healthcare system run by Liberals.

If my Cousin was given 2 free physicals a year, free emergency room visits for those who are low income and with A.I. now, we could do bi monthly health assessments where A.I. looks at your medical records and your genetic makeup and send you a health assessment every other Month. If it flags you as a risk then your free physical will be scheduled sooner and the Doctors will have specific areas they can look at.

Like I said in another posts, it's insane to move towards Socialism in a world that becoming more decentralized because of Science and Technology. It amazes me that in 2019 people want to be under the total control of a Behemoth sized even more centralized Govt. because Politicians are offering people "free stuff."

Does this mean another round of PelosiCare ?
"Got to pass it before we can see whats in it." ?
It was passed ok.
Straight from their rears to the US people

a reply to: musicismagic

This is exactly it, and trying to explain it to them can feel like like showing card tricks to a dog.

a reply to: neoholographic

It works pretty swell here in Canada. If it took having it forced upon me here to see it's great to have free health care .. well

a reply to: neoholographic

Bernie Sanders plan is dangerous and anti-American. It truly shows the dangers of Socialism.

Not really, it shows the danger of stupidity more so than Socialism.

I'm not opposed to looking at different solutions including socialized healthcare to fix our current healthcare system.

Today we have a system where the healthcare lobbyist are the winners that puts profit over the health of the people.

Not saying today system is the worst but could certainly be better and our incentives are all wrong . However, society has politicize the issue to the point that common sense and unbiased solutions cant even be discussed or looked at. Another more capitalist solution I would prefer is to modify our current incentives where the healthcare industry get rewarded based on the health of the people and society.

Republicans like to use socialism as a boogeymen word to automatically dismiss anything that comes after it, but in reality Republicans love them socialism when it comes to the military.

Having said that ,the fix isn't socialism nor more than the BS bastardize oligarch controlled capitalist solutions that the republicans are putting out.

The issue with healthcare is not healthcare its people in congress creating the rule for healthcare while under conflict of interest of the healthcare lobbying industry.

The reason the democrats are stupid when it comes to wanting a socialist healthcare system is because they completely overlook the reality that congress will bastardize the implementation of it and it will end up no better than our current bastardize oligarch controlled healthcare. Why, because they have conflict of interest.

You cant expect individuals with conflict of interest to do right by you or fix your problem when they are benefiting from your loss.

The reason the republicans are stupid when it comes to healthcare is because AGAIN they like the democrats completely overlook the reality that congress will bastardize the implementation of ANY solution.

Both the Democrats and Republicans are trying to fix a problem by completely ignoring the REAL issue and go after the never ending symptoms.

Moral of the story:
1. Stop expecting a solution from a bunch of corrupted individuals with conflict of interest.

2. Go after the corruption and decrease the conflict o interest.

3. Then lets talk solutions. As long as the people that are making the solutions have conflict of interest healthcare will never be fixed OR made better . It will only get worse as it has been doing for decades.

originally posted by: musicismagic

originally posted by: rickymouse
Socialized medicine is the best way, everyone covered for the basics. Now, there could be policies that people could buy for stuff like dental, eye glasses, plastic surgery, unnecessary tests not related to disease, so on so forth. If a person does not want to just have regular cancer treatment, they could buy some extra coverage on their own.

I think our healthcare here in America sucks, it is way overpriced and not as good as many other countries have. If you have the money then buy extra coverage. Right now only the rich can afford good pay all coverage or those with employers who pay for the good insurance, but remember, if those employers did not have to pay for that high priced insurance, they could boost what they pay to the employees.

Actually dental should be covered. Poor teeth care leads to many diseases
Japan national health care covers it.
Average per dental visit is about 25 USD and we don't have no fkn 5000 dollar deductible, no deductible
I wish americans will wake up.

Cleaning should be covered. But if a kid gets a cavity in a baby tooth they should not be getting it filled with mercury fillings when it is going to fall out in six months anyway. Braces should only be covered when it is interfering with health, most times braces are "sold" to make people look better. Cavities in adults should only be covered fifty percent, that way the people will brush their teeth, fear of expenses might make them think about brushing more.

Get the fluoride out of water, plants and fish accumulate flouride and they are pushing these healthy foods while still fluoridating water. Celery is high in fluoride, a stalk a day will supply all the extra we need. Parsley has a lot too, it is common in real foods. Some people cannot eat a lot of green veggies because of high nitrates, but they can eat a little.

Foods that have decent amounts of molybdenum can help to harden teeth, it works synergetically with fluoride in hardening and protecting enamel and it helps to toughen bone too.

a reply to: neoholographic

The primary danger of single payer (of ANY kind) is the loss of free choice.

If other people are paying for your healthcare, they are naturally going to justify making your choices for you, or limiting them in some way.

The hand that receives is always below the hand that gives.

And a further danger for any person working in the healthcare industry at any level - single payer (like Medicare for all) is going to unfortunately also mean 'single employer'. How great does that sound? *sarc alert -- not great at all!*

Monopolies are not good, especially in an industry like healthcare, where every single day lives are at stake.

a reply to: neoholographic

So Bernie is saying that me and my Wife can't choose the kind of care and the level of care we want for our family, we have to be put into a system of healthcare by Bernie whether we want to or not.

If I read your OP right, then we agree that choice in healthcare is paramount, and that our best policy as a nation is to provide both a public and private option for healthcare. But I take this much further!

We already are "in a system of healthcare [snip] whether we want to or not." Everything about our system of healthcare is micromanaged and controlled up to and including who we can obtain healthcare from, how we can obtain it, what substances we can use to nurse and nurture our health and where we can obtain it and who we can obtain it from and how we can obtain it and on and on and on.

It is exactly that power and control over our entire healthcare system which has empowered and enabled the crony capitalism and skyrocketing healthcare costs. It is exactly that power and control which has put profit over the best interests of the people. It is exactly that power and control which has allowed for regulatory capture of the agencies intended to protect and promote the best interests of the people with a revolving door between those agencies and the entities it "regulates." It is exactly that power and control which has criminalized the use of a natural plant with substances our immune systems NEED for proper and optimal function.

Insurance corporations have a vested interest in and a fiduciary duty to maximize profit for shareholders. Their best interests are not our best interests. Nor are they in any way qualified to make healthcare decisions for patients -- but they do, every day. They are also most vested in micromanaging our healthcare, including monitoring blood levels to ensure we are taking medications "properly," to monitoring our fat levels, exercise levels, alcohol intake and other health "sins," and so on.... in other words, invading our privacy to any and every extent possible. And then dictating our habits and lifestyles, or else denying us coverage/service if we do not jump through their hoops. These insurance companies can and will deny coverage for diagnostic tests, drugs and other treatments/therapies that their bureaucrats deem unnecessary or too expensive. Insurance companies can likewise hold healthcare providers hostage with their conditions and demands, thus requiring healthcare providers to drop patients who don't jump through their hoops.

Further, insurance is not the most practical or effective model for addressing our healthcare needs as a society, especially when so many diseases and conditions and managed, rather than cured. Back in the day, patients either got better or died. There was little to no ongoing treatment/therapy. But today, with chronic conditions like diabetes and heart disease and chronic pain, patients are more likely to need/receive ongoing treatment for their lifetime. Insurance is for "ifs" and possibilities, not "whens" and virtual certainties. Especially when insurance is so often tied to employment, and a steady income, which can be quickly lost with a serious illness or condition. Someone fighting/recovering from cancer isn't going to be working, and isn't going to be able to pay insurance premiums.

I could go on, but I won't. All this to say that insurance may be one of the solutions, but it is also a very big problem. And while freedom of choice is healthy, it applies to far more than insurance.

a reply to: neoholographic

WTF are you on about really. Providing a basic level of health care for all humans is an obvious thing to do. I has nothing to do with being left or right wing. It is a human thing to do.

Why is this anti American. What do you mean by anti American. What values are you talking about and where do they come from.?

a reply to: purplemer

What?

You need to read my OP again.

Who said anything about people shouldn't have access to basic healthcare?

I said Government shouldn't tell me or any American that they can't buy private health insurance like the Bernie plan entails. They're saying you have no choice. You have to accept a one size fits all Government run systems when Corrupt Politicians on both side has us 20 trillion in debt and can't fix basic things.

You may want a Behemoth sized, centralized Govt. running your life and taking away the choice for families to do what they see best for their family instead of being forced into Bernie run healthcare.

You have Countries who have universal healthcare but they still let you buy private insurance like Germany and Japan.

This isn't about healthcare. It's about Govt. control over people's lives and like I said, you may want Govt. to control your life but I don't.

a reply to: Allaroundyou

Then by all means you do it and leave me to choose my plan for myself . The government can't run the post office or keep up the infrastructure . They will totally fail at healthcare .

Why isn’t there any Socialist advocating free handguns for all or even just Constitutional Carry for all? Is there a problem with advocating independence for all under Socialism?

a reply to: neoholographic

Sorry I misread your OP. I was zzz.

and I agree with you I think you should have a choice.

Breaking 11.07.2019

Britain sounds the alarm over the problems their version of "Medicare for All" is having.

Source: twitter.com...

a reply to: Boadicea

Freedom hasn't really existed for many many years. If it ever did.

a reply to: neoholographic

From over the pond your ideas look strange. There seems to me nothing wrong with a health system for all. Yes it could be better but everyone deserves a decent level of care.
Is not the measure of a society how it treats its most vulnerable of members.

originally posted by: Joecanada11
a reply to: Boadicea

Freedom hasn't really existed for many many years. If it ever did.

Of course it exists -- and always has!!!

The question is if we're willing to pay the price for freedom... because freedom isn't free. Freedom requires courage, strength and sometimes sacrifice. Unfortunately, not enough people have the wherewithal to just say "no" and accept the consequences... especially when you have to say "no" to the barrel of a government gun.

Nevertheless, civil disobedience is an effective and time honored exercise in freedom.

a reply to: Boadicea

Are you free to do any substance you want without legal repercussions? Hunt and fish without a lisence? Own property without it being taxed? Have a home without paying insurance? Some states have rainwater laws. The native americans were free but you most definitely do not have freedom!

originally posted by: Joecanada11
a reply to: Boadicea

Are you free to do any substance you want without legal repercussions? Hunt and fish without a lisence? Own property without it being taxed? Have a home without paying insurance? Some states have rainwater laws. The native americans were free but you most definitely do not have freedom!

Compound sentences, eh?

Of course I am free to do any substance I want... the legal consequences, however, are not my choice. Hence my comment about the reluctance to say "no" to the barrel of a government gun. And, of course, my reference to civil disobedience. One must be disobeying someone's orders in order for it to be disobedience.

So there it is. Everyone has to decide for themselves if they're going to stand on their feet or cower on their knees.

That's the ultimate definition of freedom.