Universal healthcare is indentured servitude and a weapon

originally posted by: DBCowboy
a reply to: dug88

Obamacare penalties for smokers

www.bing.com... 39fa49&PC=HCTS&sp=-1&pq=universal+healthcare+has+penalties+for+smokers&sc=0-46&qs=n&sk=&cvid=051362097f404fb3f0b4c454f739fa49

Personally if we go to a nationalized health sytem, I think people who smoke, are overweight and are non compliant with their meds should have to pay higher co-pays.

The additional costs associated with obesity will come to between $850-950 billion PER YEAR.

Considering that the annual costs of the proposed healthcare reform bills are $60 billion-$160 billion/year, it seems that the US must somehow deal with obesity or it will end up bankrupting our country.

I think that we need to get very serious about this problem and it would require a carrot and stick approach. Something like, obese people pay slightly higher taxes while those who are at weight get a rebate. Or instead of useing BMI we could use % body fat, so that fit people who are technically overweight but are very healthy wouldn't be penalized.

forums.studentdoctor.net...


Easy to say that you don't mind paying extra for me, the proof in the penalties of those who live with socialized medicine say otherwise.

Yeah...that was kinda what i meant about i don't understand why America can't figure that # out. Obamacare was #ing insane. That wasn't real universal healthcare. That was a scam that left things in the hands of insurance companies while the government took it's cut.

a reply to: dug88

ObamaCare would be fine if it were tweaked to make it more affordable, and with lower deductibles/OOP. Lower-middle income people LOVE IT, and I don't blame them. $150 @ month for a $500 deductible is sweet!

But as soon as you get into the middle-income range and above, the same plan costs $600 @ month, with a $7,200 deductible.

Making it work the same for a $75k income person as it does a $30k income person, would cost the country an extra $150-$200 Billion a year, but that's a far cry from the $3 Trillion @ year that Bernie Sander's plan would need.

originally posted by: carewemust
a reply to: dug88

ObamaCare would be fine if it were tweaked to make it more affordable, and with lower deductibles/OOP. Lower-middle incjome people LOVE IT, and I don't blame them. $150 @ month for a $500 deductible is sweet!

But as soon as you get into the middle-income range and above, the same plan costs $600 @ month, with a $7,200 deductible.

Making it work the same for a $75k income person as it does a $30k income person, would cost the country an extra $150-$200 Billion a year, but that's a far cry from the $3 Trillion @ year that Bernie Sander's plan would need.

Yeah....

www2.gov.bc.ca...



You see, without all those insurance companies driving up prices of medical services to insane levels, it doesn't need to cost that much. There is zero reason for a hospital bed to cost tens of thousands of dollars a night other than insurance companies being willing to pay that price. Obamacare didn't stop that and no universal healthcare system i've seen proposed in America addresses this. Medical expenses in the USA are inflated beyond belief. Even if you don't pay your medical premiums here, a stay in the hospital will only cost you $200/night instead of thousands. There's something inherently wrong with medical billing in America that exists only because.of private insurance companies.

Why shouldn't my family and I enjoy the same sort of health care the US politicians and other federal workers have? All paid for by the US taxpayers. Why do they get preferential treatment?

I have asked this many times and it just gets ignored.

a reply to: dug88
I'm not sure if Hospitals and Doctors in the USA would accept a low reimbursement rate. One physician was on TV this afternoon stating how he'd close his practice if Medicare-for-all went affect and he was forced to accept the relatively low pay Medicare provides. (25%-30% lower than what private health insurance pays him)

a reply to: olaru12

RE: www.opm.gov...

The above chart shows what Federal Employees pay for their health insurance premiums.

originally posted by: olaru12
Why shouldn't my family and I enjoy the same sort of health care the US politicians and other federal workers have? All paid for by the US taxpayers. Why do they get preferential treatment?

I have asked this many times and it just gets ignored.

Because they are public “servants”. Just ask the Clintons. Or a teachers union?

This will make it clear.

Civil service

en.m.wikipedia.org...

A civil servant or public servant is a person employed in the public sector on behalf of a government department or agency. A civil servant or public servant's first priority is to represent the interests of citizens.

Perfectly clear now?

a reply to: neutronflux

I never said it would fit perfectly for the States. I never said that the States should copy and paste the NHS or any other system. I said it was better than the current one because the current one is clearly for profit. I will defend the NHS to my dying breath because it gives ALL USERS a standard of healthcare, some can still go private but for those who cannot afford it there is the NHS which is by far a better choice than having a system where the level of healthcare access is down to how many zeroes are in your bank account.

I think its great that you have insurance, that you are working hard and have a job where you can afford your insurance no matter how difficult it can be, Obamacare is not the answer, I've only read some of but not all about Obamacare and do not think it is the answer. I personally think that the trouble with Americans putting their heads into the space of a universal healthcare system, is that you've been programmed to think its a bad thing and that a for profit insurance scheme is the better choice (When we know it isn't). If you're asking me why I would prefer politicians to control my healthcare rather than some faceless board of suits deciding what my thousands or in some cases tens of thousands of dollars (pounds) well I think having he ability to remove those politicians who might suddenly become corrupt and messing with the NHS whereas a faceless company with bosses and a board of executives who cannot be removed or fired means they have control no matter what.


I don't think our system over here would work for the States, the number of people in the US is what a couple hundred million? whereas we're far far less but I think a system could COULD be created that mirrored the idea of free at the point of access that didn't cost most people their lives or had them living in pain and agony for their lives because they couldn't afford healthcare insurance or in most cases for the poor or just about managing people avoid using it because their payments would go up. I can't remember who said it but I remember someone saying "Healthcare Insurance is like betting against yourself and losing either way. Either you live a long happy life paying through the nose for something you'll never need or you end up injuring yourself and ending up having increased medical premiums because you hurt yourself".

originally posted by: pexx421
What we have now is the capitalist dream. Which is to take all the surplus capital from the workers leaving them with just enough money for bare subsistence. And this is how our medical system works. For the poor, who have no surplus, they decide what healthcare you get and then they bill the taxpayers exhorbitant rates for it. For the working poor, who can’t get benefits and can’t get insurance, they want all your money for the rest of your life, and will take it if you have one serious illness or injury. And for the wealthy, who the system serves, well they get whatever care they want. And this is a pretty correct extrapolation to our whole society as well. Regardless, single payer is a necessity, as we as a society can no longer afford the burden of healthcare and all the hands in the pot, mostly the profit portion as the actual cost of care is pretty low. But we also need to have private insurance options ON TOP of the public option, so people don’t freak out about their rights being taken away.

Weird, how did my grand daughter ever get born? Her mother had no insurance and a lousy job and somehow she hasn't been charged one cent. In your scenario that is just outright impossible - and yet it happened!

originally posted by: carewemust
RE: www.opm.gov...

The above chart shows what Federal Employees pay for their health insurance premiums.

So, not only do I have to pay MORE than federal employees for their healthcare, I also get to subsidize their healthcare premiums.......
nice!!!!!

And Mick Jagger came to NY for surgery why?

This is actually what I have been saying for years. Not because I don't think people have a right to basic survival (They do). But because I just think there isn't a way to make this happen that isn't going to be abused from the top down. The government is obviously going to use anything it has at it's disposal as a means to coerce the behavior it desires.

Having said that, this planet is really just a gigantic slave farm anyway so I'm not sure it's going to do any good to point out the facts that most people have already chosen to ignore and not care about.

originally posted by: neutronflux
How is it necessity. I would say populations have flourished with basically no healthcare for thousands of years.

No they haven't. People have died young, to treatable illnesses, for thousands of years. I don't know about you, but I would rather not die at 55 when I could instead easily live to double that.

originally posted by: Dwoodward85
Would you prefer to get healthcare no matter your standing and the size of your bank account or would you rather people pay extreme costs for small illness?

My manager at work uses an HSA plan. The plan is basically, some small premium (I think $50/paycheck?) for a high deductible plan which offers 45% coinsurance before hitting it. In addition to some other amount per month which comes to $500/year and is then matched by the company for another $500. Bringing the total to $1000/year that sits in your HSA.

He has had this plan for 3 years. About a month ago he got a minor rash on his ankle and it was painful and spreading. He went to quick care, and they misdiagnosed it. He went back, and they sent him to the emergency room. He sat in the ER for a few hours, eventually saw a doctor for 10 minutes, and was given an $11 prescription. Between the ER, the charge for the doctors, and the 2 quick care visits, he ended up paying $3700, after his insurance also picked up part of it.

So, 3 years worth of medical savings and premiums, and an additional $3700 all to get properly diagnosed for an $11 prescription. This is the only time in 3 years he has used any sort of health care, so all in all it ran him $5500 for some extremely basic care. Had he not had any insurance, it would have run him $6700, so it's still slightly cheaper but clearly not by enough.

I don't think anyone would argue that this is a good result. The system is completely absurd.

originally posted by: DBCowboy

originally posted by: dug88
I dunno...walking into a hospital or doctor's office and walking out without dropping hundreds, thousands, or tens of thousands of dollars feels pretty good. It really gives a nice sense of freedom knowing becoming ill or hurting myself won't completely and utterly # me financially.

So you have no problem paying more for me, a fat smoker who drinks too much.

You'll just say, "Enjoy! Live your life, I'll take care of you!"

I'll just be able to live as I want, with no responsibility because I'll know that you and everyone else will take care of me.

You won't dictate what I eat, how much I eat, what I drink, how much I drink, or even if I smoke?

Get ill and die sooner, or get ill and die later. Either way, you'll eventually get sick and cost a lot of money. The difference is that if you take care of yourself, you'll get to enjoy life longer. Whether you want to do that or not is up to you I suppose.

originally posted by: Fools
Weird, how did my grand daughter ever get born? Her mother had no insurance and a lousy job and somehow she hasn't been charged one cent. In your scenario that is just outright impossible - and yet it happened!

You do realize that in some areas of the US (predominantly red states, outside of the cities), deaths in childbirth, for both mothers and babies are approaching that of third world nation levels? In that metric, the US is now far lower than any other developed country in the world, and just barely higher than that of most undeveloped nations.

originally posted by: DontTreadOnMe

originally posted by: carewemust
RE: www.opm.gov...

The above chart shows what Federal Employees pay for their health insurance premiums.

So, not only do I have to pay MORE than federal employees for their healthcare, I also get to subsidize their healthcare premiums.......
nice!!!!!

You pay more? That's a surprise. That chart says a single person is paying $726.22 per month in premiums. That's $8714 per year. Nearly $9000 per year for health care is not reasonable. Especially from positions that are paying maybe $45k per year. 1/6 of your pre tax TC should not be going to health insurance.

originally posted by: DontTreadOnMe

originally posted by: carewemust
RE: www.opm.gov...

The above chart shows what Federal Employees pay for their health insurance premiums.

So, not only do I have to pay MORE than federal employees for their healthcare, I also get to subsidize their healthcare premiums.......
nice!!!!!

You're also subsidizing the 12 million new people enrolled in ObamaCare's expanded Medicaid. A 3% Health Insurance Tax is added to every premium of every American, to subsidize the Medicaid program.

originally posted by: Aazadan

originally posted by: DontTreadOnMe

originally posted by: carewemust
RE: www.opm.gov...

The above chart shows what Federal Employees pay for their health insurance premiums.

So, not only do I have to pay MORE than federal employees for their healthcare, I also get to subsidize their healthcare premiums.......
nice!!!!!

You pay more? That's a surprise. That chart says a single person is paying $726.22 per month in premiums. That's $8714 per year. Nearly $9000 per year for health care is not reasonable. Especially from positions that are paying maybe $45k per year. 1/6 of your pre tax TC should not be going to health insurance.

I had a lady literally cry last Fall because the ObamaCare Blue Cross health insurance premium for her and her husband (Ages 59/61) spiked from $1,800 a month to $2,100 a month, for a $7,200 Deductible. They were barely affording the $1,800 premium.

If her husband didn't have a recent history of cancer, they would have just went without health insurance, like 32 million Americans are doing this year.

There are a few truths that need to be considered for any form of national healthcare program to work. The problem is and has been that one side makes assumptions based on these truths that are not necessarily truth themselves, and the other side tries to ignore them altogether. Here are a few of those truths:

• The most capable heathcare is also the most expensive, just like in any other industry. The guy fixing engines in his backyard under the shade tree using his daddy's tools does not need to charge as much as the one in the middle of town with a 12-bay building on prime real estate, a lavish waiting room for customers, and a toolbox full of the latest Snap-On tools.
  
  
• Everyone will need health care at some point. Some more than others, but all will need it.
  
  
• Insurance is not free money. Insurance is a lottery one gambles in to prevent an even worse gamble, and in the end only saves money for some if not everyone needs their insurance.
  
  
• Healthcare is not a profession where any warm body can do the job. Doctors and even nurses are highly-skilled individuals who have made major investments in themselves, and as such they expect a much higher standard of living than someone who coasts through life in unskilled occupations. Otherwise, they wouldn't put in the time and money to become highly skilled.
  
  
• Cutting edge technology always costs substantially more than older technology, because those who risked their resources to develop the technology did so with the expectation of profit for their sacrifice.
  
  
• No one understands everything about medicine. We actually know precious little as a society about how life really works. If we did understand medicine, there would be no such thing as terminal diseases. Thus, if we wish to improve medicine, we must research.
  
  
• Anything that raises the cost to doctors raises the cost of healthcare. That includes malpractice suits, new technology, insurance regulations, and government restrictions.
  
  
• Not all doctors are created equal. The doctor I prefer may not be the doctor you prefer.
  
  
• People have their own personal standard of living, which includes their habits, their routines, and their choices. No one is capable of making health decisions for everyone. That includes doctors.

Right now, the US is the heart of medical research. If we remove the profit potential, we will lose much of that research. No one chooses to work for free. On the other hand, the possibility that people could live out their lives without the risk of financial disaster over a sudden pain is quite appealing. Medicare for all will stifle the research, because by necessity it will remove the profit margin from medical research, and it will also not improve the quality of medical professionals if profits to these professionals is throttled. On the other hand, what Medicare for all will do is provide more affordable health care for everyone regardless of societal standing and it will quite possibly extend the lives of many.

The questions I have include such things as "How will extending my life affect my quality of life," "who and what determines who receives naturally limited resources such as transplants," and "am I OK with guaranteeing my personal access to healthcare while knowing my children will have no better healthcare when they get old because of it?" These are legitimate questions that often have a highly personal answer.

There are ways to accomplish the goals of universal healthcare without sacrificing the profit-based system and the advantages it entails... but those require thinking outside the box, and that seems to be a bad thing in this country right now.

TheRedneck