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Proverbial characters;- The Quarreller

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posted on Apr, 6 2019 @ 11:45 AM
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a reply to: DISRAELI



But if he really is what he claims to be, he doesn't need to answer your questions. The power alone would be enough to place him beyond that necessity. 


With all due respect, that is dangerously naive and borderline cowardice. No one is above being questioned and there is no such thing as being too powerful to be held accountable by we the people.




posted on Apr, 6 2019 @ 11:59 AM
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originally posted by: TzarChasm
there is no such thing as being too powerful to be held accountable by we the people.

Yes, there is.
Only humans can be accountable to "the people". On the premise of something holding absolute power, attempts to fight against that power would count as stupidity rather than bravery.
You argue like Moloch in Paradise Lost, but he too was being absurd.

I suppose from this point on you will start repeating yourself, and I'll be able to relax and re-post my previous replies.




edit on 6-4-2019 by DISRAELI because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 6 2019 @ 02:41 PM
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originally posted by: DISRAELI

originally posted by: TzarChasm
there is no such thing as being too powerful to be held accountable by we the people.

Yes, there is.
Only humans can be accountable to "the people". On the premise of something holding absolute power, attempts to fight against that power would count as stupidity rather than bravery.
You argue like Moloch in Paradise Lost, but he too was being absurd.

I suppose from this point on you will start repeating yourself, and I'll be able to relax and re-post my previous replies.



Tell that to the Avengers. Some very noble people prefer death over just accepting the whims of a dictator. It's called guts.
edit on 6-4-2019 by TzarChasm because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 6 2019 @ 03:53 PM
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a reply to: TzarChasm
I don't know what John Steed and Emma Peel have to do with the matter.
Yes, I thought so- you're Moloch;
"... No! Let us rather choose,
Armed with Hell-flames and fury, all at once
O'er Heaven's high towers to force resistless way..." Paradise Lost Book 2 ll60-63

Since you appear to put your trust in fictional characters, you are obviously beyond the reach of rational argument. I shall leave you to your delusions.




edit on 6-4-2019 by DISRAELI because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 6 2019 @ 09:45 PM
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originally posted by: DISRAELI
a reply to: TzarChasm
I don't know what John Steed and Emma Peel have to do with the matter.
Yes, I thought so- you're Moloch;
"... No! Let us rather choose,
Armed with Hell-flames and fury, all at once
O'er Heaven's high towers to force resistless way..." Paradise Lost Book 2 ll60-63

Since you appear to put your trust in fictional characters, you are obviously beyond the reach of rational argument. I shall leave you to your delusions.

Lol? I meant the other avengers. I just felt like there were some questions that needed to asked.

up



posted on Apr, 6 2019 @ 10:40 PM
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originally posted by: ketsuko

originally posted by: Nothin
a reply to: DISRAELI

Did ya find yer 'Quarreller' yet?


Surely you are joking. We're on an internet forum. It's a place made for quarrelers.

Not only that, but being quarrelsome is something all of us engage in from time to time. The archetype as constructed in Proverbs is for instruction more than it is to be a label. Proverbs is a series of character stories meant to instruct on how you should not be. Labeling someone an inveterate quarreler would be like labeling an African-American a lazy, porch-sitting person snacking on fried chicken and watermelon. It would be highly, offensively stereotypical in the extreme. Are there African-Americans who engage in some of those behaviors from time to time? Sure, just like there are people from other backgrounds who do. I love a good watermelon myself ... just like I have likely been quarrelsome myself.

The point is to take the type/behavior to an extreme and illustrate and bad outcome (or the good ones in the case of the healthy archetypes) more than it is to point to actual people themselves.




Not joking. Not serious.
Maybe a little of both, amongst a myriad of other possibilities?

Agreed that is very common on this site, for many to play the role of 'The Quarreller'.
A little of everything, inside all of us?
From nothing: everything?

Perhaps we could all attempt to put into practice, some of the lessons from the OP?



posted on Apr, 7 2019 @ 12:22 AM
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originally posted by: DISRAELI
a reply to: Nothin
I would rather not, in detail, just in case he reads ATS, recognises himself, and realises how much I know about what he does.
In practice, I deal with him mainly by avoiding contact, which could be called the "patience" which Proverbs also recommends. I couldn't match him even if I wanted to, because I don't have a loud enough voice.



Maybe we could all learn to become better neighbors?

Get a good vibe, contemplating the possible messages, underneath the Proverbs.



posted on Apr, 7 2019 @ 07:22 AM
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a reply to: Nothin
The OP itself is giving indirect advice in that respect, by telling us what to avoid. Do not be "hasty in your words", because "a wise man holds himself back". As the previous thread quoted, "Answer not a Fool according to his folly". So the wise man does not respond in kind or try to take the law into his own hands.
At the same time, he should not be too quick to appeal to the law, becasue he might not have the kind of case which could convince a third party, and he would be "put to shame". (One of the practical implications is that "wasting police time" is a legal offence in this country, with a fixed-penalty fine).
Nor, on the other hand, should he be quick to take the quarreller's side against another neighbour, and get drawn into that fight.
So the idea of steering clear of him altogether does have a lot going for it.


edit on 7-4-2019 by DISRAELI because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 7 2019 @ 02:41 PM
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originally posted by: DISRAELI
a reply to: TzarChasm
I don't know what John Steed and Emma Peel have to do with the matter.
Yes, I thought so- you're Moloch;
"... No! Let us rather choose,
Armed with Hell-flames and fury, all at once
O'er Heaven's high towers to force resistless way..." Paradise Lost Book 2 ll60-63

Since you appear to put your trust in fictional characters, you are obviously beyond the reach of rational argument. I shall leave you to your delusions.


Are you really going to ridicule me on the topic of trusting supernatural forces which may or may not be fictional?



posted on Apr, 7 2019 @ 02:59 PM
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a reply to: TzarChasm
Yes, because I relished the irony of the situation. It is the "tu quoque" argument. Any time you make that charge in the future, I can respond with "But you believe in the Avengers".
P.S. Emma says she loves you too;



edit on 7-4-2019 by DISRAELI because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 7 2019 @ 04:47 PM
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originally posted by: DISRAELI
a reply to: TzarChasm
Yes, because I relished the irony of the situation. It is the "tu quoque" argument. Any time you make that charge in the future, I can respond with "But you believe in the Avengers".
P.S. Emma says she loves you too;




That fallacy doesn't apply here because I admire the very human virtues represented by the Marvel characters as opposed to being invested in their literal existence and real world ability to save our hides from some cosmic or supernatural threat. But the spirit of their endeavors remains the same - opposing those ginormous dictator types who believe it is their sovereign privilege to impose on the masses with no regard for civil rights or due process of government.



posted on Apr, 7 2019 @ 06:22 PM
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originally posted by: DISRAELI
a reply to: Nothin
The OP itself is giving indirect advice in that respect, by telling us what to avoid. Do not be "hasty in your words", because "a wise man holds himself back". As the previous thread quoted, "Answer not a Fool according to his folly". So the wise man does not respond in kind or try to take the law into his own hands.
At the same time, he should not be too quick to appeal to the law, becasue he might not have the kind of case which could convince a third party, and he would be "put to shame". (One of the practical implications is that "wasting police time" is a legal offence in this country, with a fixed-penalty fine).
Nor, on the other hand, should he be quick to take the quarreller's side against another neighbour, and get drawn into that fight.
So the idea of steering clear of him altogether does have a lot going for it.


Yes. Can understand those ideas. Thanks.

Perhaps we could also consider, that in the 'quarrelling neighbor' scenario: that we have not walked in their shoes?
Thusly: presenting our quarrel to a third person, whom also see's the other side of the quarrel: may not have a positive result for us.

How could we be objective?
Do we know the other side of the quarrel?

For me: those are good enough questions, to always have some doubt present.



posted on Apr, 8 2019 @ 02:15 AM
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originally posted by: TzarChasm
as opposed to being invested in their literal existence and real world ability to save our hides from some cosmic or supernatural threat.

The question at issue was whether it is possible for humans to fight against an absolute power. If it is not possible, then making the attempt is not a virtue of any kind. It is just being futile, like Moloch's hopes of fighting Heaven, or the teenage American delusion that you can fight foreign dictators by wearing slogans on t-shirts. If you were not claiming for the Avengers the possibility of fighting against absolute power, then introducing them was a red herring.
There is no virtue in stupidity, and if you continue to insist that stupidity is a virtue, I will take no notice.



posted on Apr, 11 2019 @ 08:04 PM
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originally posted by: DISRAELI
The collector of the Old Testament Proverbs makes his purpose clear from the beginning.
“That men may know wisdom and instruction, understand words of insight” (ch1 v2).
Then he further defines this wisdom as “fear of the Lord” (v7). This phrase, when used in the Bible, means respect and willingness to obey.
I’m studying the different characters of Proverbs, as one way of organising and understanding the teaching.

I’ve already looked at the general character of the Fool, who does not understand this “fear of the Lord”.
I observed that the combination of his talkativeness and his lack of wisdom tends to make him quarrelsome.
So that gives us the Quarreller as one of the subcategories of this character.

“Every fool will be quarrelling” (ch20 v3).
This is particularly the case when the Fool has an angry nature;
“A man of wrath stirs up strife, and a man given to anger causes much transgression” (ch29 v22).
Or he may just be a man who ”loves transgression” and therefore “loves strife” (ch17 v19).

One of the connecting links between anger and strife is hasty and ill-considered speech, which is one of the characteristics of the Fool.
“There is one whose rash words are like sword thrusts” (ch12 v18).
“Do you see a man who is hasty in his words? There is more hope for a fool than for him” (ch29 v20).

It is the Fool, rather than the Wise man, who offers insulting language;
“He who belittles his neighbour lacks sense, but a man of understanding remains silent”- (ch11 v12).
Wisdom is with those who take advice (before opening the discussion), but “by insolence the heedless make strife” (ch13 v10).

It is the Fool, rather than the Wise Man, who responds badly to insulting language from the other party;
“A soft answer turns away wrath, but a harsh word stirs up anger” (ch15 v1).
“The vexation of a fool is known at once, but the prudent man ignores an insult” (ch12 v16).
“A fool gives vent to his anger, but a wise man quietly holds it back” (ch29 v11).

They need to find a way of escaping from an emerging conflict before it gets out of hand;
“The beginning of strife is like letting out water; so quit before the quarrel breaks out” (ch17 v14).
This image obviously comes from a society which practices irrigation. People are used to seeing the irresistible rush of water once it has been released.
Therefore it is important to learn forgiveness;
“Hatred stirs up strife, but love covers all offences” (ch10 v12).
“He who forgives an offence seeks love, but he who repeats a matter alienates a friend.”- ch17 v9

They should certainly avoid bringing other people into the quarrel;
“He who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him” (ch18 v17).
“Argue your case with your neighbour himself, and do not disclose another’s secret;
Lest he who hears you bring shame upon you, and your ill repute have no end” (ch25 vv9-10).
Even worse, calling in the lawyers;
“What your eyes have seen do not bring hastily into court;
For what will you do in the end, when your neighbour puts you to shame?” (ch25 vv7-8).
“Be not a witness against your neighbour without cause, and do not deceive with your lips.
Do not say “I will do to him what he has done to me; I will pay the man back for what he has done” (ch24 vv28-29).

The better approach is to break the cycle of hostility;
“Do not rejoice when your enemy falls, and let not your heart be glad when he stumbles, lest the Lord see it and be displeased, and turn away his anger from him” (ch24 vv17-18).
“If your enemy is hungry, give him bread to eat; and if he is thirsty, give him water to drink;
For you will heap coals of fire upon his head and the Lord will reward you” (ch25 vv21-22).

By the same token, they should not be getting involved in other people’s quarrels;
“He who meddles in a quarrel not his own is like one who takes a passing dog by the ears” (ch26 v17).
But it’s hard for them to avoid getting involved in quarrels if they take up company with men who are prone to quarrelling;
“Make no friendship with a man given to anger, nor go with a wrathful man, lest you learn his ways and entangle yourself in a snare” (ch22 v25).
“A man of violence entices his neighbour and leads him into a way that is not good” (ch16 v29).

On the other hand, “the tongue of the wise brings healing” (ch12 v18).
“He who restrains his words has knowledge, and he who has a cool spirit is a man of understanding” (ch17 v27).
Strife is avoided by the man who controls his tongue and his temper.
The wise man is “slow to anger”, and this victory over himself makes him “better than a man who takes a city” (ch16 v32)
“A man of quick temper acts foolishly, but a man of discretion is patient” (ch14 v17).
“It is his glory to overlook an offence” (ch19 v11)

That is one way of detecting the difference between wisdom and folly, between righteousness and unrighteousness.




I give you my thanks. You post throws great illumination upon the major arcana of the traditional tarot deck. Clearly your occult knowledge is profound.



posted on Apr, 12 2019 @ 03:50 AM
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a reply to: Gogmagog
Yeah, yeah. Now we know what your sense of humour is like.
In fact the quoted references show where the knowledge really came from.



posted on Apr, 12 2019 @ 07:18 AM
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a reply to: DISRAELI

Humor is an important quality, and though I intended none, I am glad you found so in my words

You quotes came from the book of proverbs, a book of the hebrew bible that has roots in the writings of the ancient Egyptians.

As the medieval tarot is rooted in the quaballah, and the mystery school religions, the connections seems apt as well as interesting.







 
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