Can Congress force Trump to hand over taxes ?

How about directly from the Rules of the Senate?
www.rules.senate.gov...

XXIX EXECUTIVE SESSIONS

1. When the President of the United States shall meet the Senate in the Senate Chamber for the consideration of Executive business, he shall have a seat on the right of the Presiding Officer. When the Senate shall be convened by the President of the United States to any other place, the Presiding Officer of the Senate and the Senators shall attend at the place appointed, with the necessary officers of the Senate.

2. When acting upon confidential or Executive business, unless the same shall be considered in open Executive session, the Senate Chamber shall be cleared of all persons except the Secretary, the Assistant Secretary, the Principal Legislative Clerk, the Parliamentarian, the Executive Clerk, the Minute and Journal Clerk, the Sergeant at Arms, the Secretaries to the Majority and the Minority, and such other officers as the Presiding Officer shall think necessary; and all such officers shall be sworn to secrecy.

3. All confidential communications made by the President of the United States to the Senate shall be by the Senators and the officers of the Senate kept secret; and all treaties which may be laid before the Senate, and all remarks, votes, and proceedings thereon shall also be kept secret, until the Senate shall, by their resolution, take off the injunction of secrecy.

4. Whenever the injunction of secrecy shall be removed from any part of the proceedings of the Senate in closed Executive or legislative session, the order of the Senate removing the same shall be entered in the Legislative Journal as well as in the Executive Journal, and shall be published in the Congressional Record under the direction of the Secretary of the Senate.

5. Any Senator, officer, or employee of the Senate who shall disclose the secret or confidential business or proceedings of the Senate, including the business and proceedings of the committees, subcommittees, and offices of the Senate, shall be liable, if a Senator, to suffer expulsion from the body; and if an officer or employee, to dismissal from the service of the Senate, and to punishment for contempt.

6. Whenever, by the request of the Senate or any committee thereof, any documents or papers shall be communicated to the Senate by the President or the head of any department relating to any matter pending in the Senate, the proceedings in regard to which are secret or confidential under the rules, said documents and papers shall be considered as confidential, and shall not be disclosed without leave of the Senate.

a reply to: dubiousatworst

What does that have to do with the Ways and Means Committee of the House telling the IRS to turn over the president's tax returns?

Were his tax returns produced by the Senate?

a reply to: Phage

Because any IRS papers that identify any individual can only be used in an executive session. Which means that it has to take place in the Senate if at all.

a reply to: dubiousatworst

Because any IRS papers that identify any individual can only be used in an executive session.

Yes, but what do you think an "executive session" is, exactly?

Congressional committee meetings that are closed to the public are sometimes called executive sessions.

fas.org...

The Ways and Means Committee is a Congressional committee.

a reply to: Phage

A closed session is not the same thing as an executive session. The Senate alone can have an executive session when referring to IRS documents that identify individuals. Just because the Federation of American Scientists doesn't differentiate between them does not mean that they are not different. Furthermore FAS is not a government organization and is a 501(c)(3).

a reply to: dubiousatworst

The Senate alone can have an executive session when referring to IRS documents that identify individuals.

Incorrect. The House Ways and Means Committee may obtain the tax returns of anyone they wish.

(f) Disclosure to Committees of Congress
(1) Committee on Ways and Means, Committee on Finance, and Joint Committee on Taxation

Upon written request from the chairman of the Committee onWays and Means of the House of Representatives, the chairman of the Committee on Finance of the Senate, or the chairman of the Joint Committee on Taxation, the Secretary shall furnish such committee with any return or return information specified in such request, except that any return or return information which can be associated with, or otherwise identify, directly or indirectly, a particular taxpayer shall be furnished to such committee only when sitting in closed executive session unless such taxpayer otherwise consents in writing to such disclosure.

www.law.cornell.edu...

Furthermore FAS is not a government organization and is a 501(c)(3).

So what? As a 501(c), their 990s are required to be public.

a reply to: Phage

...shall be furnished to such committee only when sitting in closed executive sessions...

again, the house can have a closed session, but it may not have an executive session

and an official government document to go with it
www.govinfo.gov...

a reply to: dubiousatworst

again, the house can have a closed session, but it may not have an executive session

They are the same thing. Each is a meeting at which only committee members are present (other than invited or subpoenaed witnesses).

a reply to: Phage

You are basing your point on a non-government document. I am basing mine on government documents.
They are not the same thing, and I doubt I will convince you otherwise, so there is no further point in trying to explain that the House and Senate do not have the same powers.

a reply to: dubiousatworst

You are basing your point on a non-government document.

I'm basing my point on the law.

originally posted by: Sillyolme
a reply to: Ksihkehe

Lets see if he can find those tax returns though.

Don't you mean doctored tax returns, enough time has elapsed for that to happen.

a reply to: Phage

you used a non-law source for your definition of what an executive session is. An executive session is distinctly when the Senate does executive business.

a reply to: dubiousatworst

I cited the law.

The Ways and Means Committee is not part of the Senate.

Laws trump rules, of House and Senate.

a reply to: Phage

You overlooked this part, and it has been brought up in the thread before:

"the Secretary shall furnish such committee with any return or return information specified in such request, except that any return or return information which can be associated with, or otherwise identify, directly or indirectly, a particular taxpayer"

"except that any return or return information which can be associated with, or otherwise identify, directly or indirectly, a particular taxpayer"

means they can give the numbers for any return, but to have any indication that is a specific individual will make in illegal.
So the requesting specific of Trumps return is not Valid by the committee.


What defines an executive committee, has also been addressed in the thread.

Putting aside law and legality, is this the path we want to take?

The qualifications for President are quite clear and taxes paid [or unpaid] are not one of them.

I believe this sets a precedent that will only create an emaculate bubble for the elite that have been groomed to ever run for the office.

a reply to: Sillyolme

What could he owe? the truth is where are the trillions of tax dollars they have been taking for years,sad to see how mis informed many are on here anymore,no one ever researches,they just open mouth insert foot

a reply to: xuenchen

I dont want to. You look it up if its so important to you to prove me wrong.

a reply to: Oldtimer2

Jesus.. this is not about what taxes he pays.
Its to see if he has any financial conflicts of interest with policy he might make.
Please guys if you dont even know what the issue is dont argue. Otherwise you wind up being the one eating shoe leather.
Now it did turn out that Nixon owed a boatload of taxes when they finally audited him but still that is not what this particular disclosure is about.

originally posted by: InTheLight

originally posted by: Sillyolme
a reply to: Ksihkehe

Lets see if he can find those tax returns though.

Don't you mean doctored tax returns, enough time has elapsed for that to happen.

The tax returns are literally already in the hands of the IRS and have been for years and have been audited. Do you think THEY are going to doctor them? Do you know how tax returns work?

I get people wanting to know this stuff, but from a legal standpoint, the legality of his tax filings has been or is already being established by the IRS who's job it is to do that.

There is no criminal reason to get the tax returns unless you are suggesting that the IRS (same one busted for focused republican auditing), is somehow covering for him.

This is purely about personal curiosity driven by politics.

a reply to: ownbestenemy

Its not about taxes paid...