Brexit Overview - Solutions Overlooked & Values Forgotten

Hey there ATS,

I typically enjoy speculations which take us to the end of the twig, to borrow a catchphrase from a noted researcher; frequently I create threads & simply let them fly, which can lead to argument & dismissals because of a lack of ongoing involvement after having sparked the conversation. I think of them as 'hit & run' threads, which seems a crude analogy, but actually does reflect my disinterest in following the evolutions of critiques & conversations. For that I express apology - it has actually come about through a lack of personal confidence, which may seem an odd thing to confess to on a forum, but I'm hoping to provide context regarding my involvement on ATS & my writing in general.

With that general introduction in place, I bring you the subject at hand - yes, it's Brexit.

I'm not going to go into a long ramble about where the politicians are up to, but there is something which seems to me to be highly important, which is not being properly addressed by those in power, and those who influence those in power.

There have been frequent calls to cling to 'British values', typically a retort to some perceived conservative dismissal of the immigration situation, and such. These appeals for an upwelling of 'British values' though, has most certainly lost ANY sense of actual British values. The most recent one i heard said "We must cling to our British values - tolerance, inclusiveness & compassion". As I listened to this (on the radio news) I found myself remarkably frustrated at the absolute shambles & misrepresentation of actual, genuine British values.

Yes, we value 'fair play' in a general sense. We are very legalistic in our general appraisal of the world around us. We are strict in our interpretation fo right & wrong, and we generally believe in firm, but decisive justice at all levels of the judicial system. We believe in hard graft, earning our keep, having the drive to propel oneself & achieve social mobility through grit & determination, through conscientious work, loyalty to family, friends & the workers around us. These are British values. Yes, we have a reasonable hold on the need to be compassionate to outsiders who need genuine assistance - but we are not gullible 'yes men' who believe the ultra-leftist diatribes where we are basically told that we have all the grit & steel of 'Dr Phil'. We do NOT permit indecent actions from those who would want to harm us or reshape our society from within. We are canny; we see it happening, we see the abuses of the welfare state which can arise when incoming persons decide to maintain four wives by accessing the benefits system for all of them. These are seen to be manipulative, and we observe everyone, whether European or from the East - we expect fair play, we expect determination & a willingness to wok hard to raise one's status - but we do not support abuses of the systems which successive governments have provided to form a society which is possibly the most intellectually astute nation in the world. And let's face it - all the best villains are English.

We are canny, wise, tough & determined. Remarkably, the 'Blitz Spirit' lives on within the heartlands of our communities & folk legends. We are not soft, weak, ultra-liberal smooth-talking softies who will permit just about any abuse being levied against our state. Do not take this the wrong way, but we must be hard-nosed in some cases, and closing down the border crossings is a suitable response to economic migration amounting to potential abuses of our systems & living off the state. We cannot allow the ultra-leftist softies to MISREPRESENT the British spirit, which misrepresentation is very evident in a lot of interviews with politicians during the Brexit saga, and even seems to be a strategic insertion of propaganda into the opportunities afforded by the media involvement in the debates. We must resist this misrepresentation with an appropriate media response from politicos who can stand up & speak for these true values, without falling prey to the assaults of smooth operators on the far left.

We are NOT waiting with open arms for the world to come and snuggle up. The world has changed in the past few years, and now we need to be in a state of firm decisiveness, ensuring that our responses to all circumstances arising from Brexit negotiations are strongly enforced, though of course with compassionate care where genuine situations of risk to the person concerned are presented.

And after we leave, what is the solution to our economic needs? I recall a couple of years ago a lady interviewed on the BBC basically had a Freudian slip & confessed that everything that her group (an NGO, I think) was involved with, had to do with presenting Britain as a financial hub which is seen as London, plus empty space. The implicit message was that internationally, we are seen as a state which is rolling back its power & potential, getting tangled in bizarre argumentalism, anti-semitism & aggressive marches calling for the destruction of British people, particularly soldiers, as an example. To be seen as nothing more than a minor financial hub providing back office services to wider international corporate needs - it is an embarrasment, and we really need to start standing up for our potential. The future, is INNOVATION.

We should be absolutely driving the need for innovation deep into the psyche of our people, starting at school with a far more rigorous focus on technological innovation & craft of various sorts. We need to become a nation of strong, multi-faceted & independent (though networked) small to medium enterprises rooted in innovation, perhaps growing after some time into a wider, networked & capable corporate stance between many independent industrialists - making us the workshop of the world, rather than subsisting in a measly back office role, so to speak.

Well, now.

First of all, I'm not so sure you actually will leave. The entire idea of a Brexit is nonsensical: it is not supported by the majority of your people, it would hurt both the EU and the UK, the Scots would probably go for independence, how about the Northern Irish - and even if you left, after a few years the voters will vote another parliament and the younger Brits will simply revoke the entire thing, as they fail to see why they should be limited to the Island when they could have the entire nation and the continent.

You may hope to become a nation of strong, multi-faceted and independent enterprises but the question is which market they will serve. Without the common market, your options will be limited.

Though it seems a bit lame to be the first to reply to my own thread, I forgot one thing which seemed important when it occurred. I had a dream in which I was instructed to pray for Brexit, to pray for the nation, to pray for the decision makers, strategists, intelligence analysts - everyone who plays any sort of role in the unfolding event of our times.

I am determined that we should be trying to spark a new narrative, saying that INNOVATION is the way forwards. There are arguments to be had for a UBI in a highly automated society, where actual labour is not required, and so much of the population becomes aimless & unemployed, through no fault of their own, simply the result of hyper-automation. UBI would be used to carry out transactions only within the nation & could not be transferred out of the nation - it all must flow around in the networked intersections where innovation of some form has taken hold.

I sincerely pray that this government, with sound input from the opposition, may stand resolute & decisive, literally standing with the nation on their backs - may they all prosper in wisdom & understanding, may they all find security & a path of clear actions, logical steps which miraculously unfold as the processes roll towards the actual exit from the EU. I believe that God takes an interest in the fate of nations as well as individual people, being eternal & infinite, it is simple plain sense that He is able to plant & tend to opportunities which are the machinations of deep state processes. May they remain untarnished by the sickly diatribes of the ultra-leftist; may we resist the thuggery of a fascist uprising. There should be no violence, and order shall be maintained. The people will become open-minded & interested with a genuine sense of curiosity & compassion, smiling at Providence as the path unfolds before each of us & all of us. BREXIT WILL SUCCEED, and Britain will remain strong, growing in power & capability, an example to the world, able to develop models of excellence which will shine as a city on a hill, whose light cannot be hidden. Past indiscretions are simply that - past. We cannot override what has happened in the history of our nation, and so we use our opportunity through the grace of retained wealth & power, an inherited privilege which will help us to institute a society of sharp thinkers, innovators, industrialists & social enterprise entrepreneurs.

Long live Britain; may all her plans succeed!

a reply to: ForteanOrg

Your comments are accurate, to a degree - but you must understand that this has literally divided family members against each other, almost the sort of situation which preceeds a civil war.. Your comments are valid, but it can be flipped around very easily, with the absolute opposite being true to a degree of 40-50% still in favour of Brexit - largely on principle of having effectively 'given our word', and now we must act on it. So really, the argument is moot, due to the almost 50% opposite position held by a great percentage of our people. We do understand now that perhaps many were misguided & voted based on a campaign of misrepresentation - but basically many of them simply accept this process as the reslut of direct democracy, thus to be protected & implemented based on the honour of having given our word, collectively.

originally posted by: ForteanOrg
Well, now.

First of all, I'm not so sure you actually will leave. The entire idea of a Brexit is nonsensical: it is not supported by the majority of your people,

Well now......

The referendum says it is supported by the majority, with the largest turnout

in UK history.

it would hurt both the EU and the UK, the Scots would probably go for independence,

The EU will lose more than the UK .....may be a bit rocky at first, but

without the weight of and EU shackles, we will become again a lean

mean working machine, and on the way to that we will need to get rid

of the useless MP's we currently have.

how about the Northern Irish - and even if you left, after a few years the voters will vote another parliament and the younger Brits will simply revoke the entire thing, as they fail to see why they should be limited to the Island when they could have the entire nation and the continent.

In your dreams.

You may hope to become a nation of strong, multi-faceted and independent enterprises but the question is which market they will serve. Without the common market, your options will be limited.

The EU is 27 countries of which 20 are takers not contributers so the EU is

quantity and not so much quality.

The world consists of 193 nations a third is more than the whole of the EU!!!

And now the EU is loosing its second largest financial contributer

a reply to: FlyInTheOintment

What's ""overlooked"" are the fools who are in charge of the asylum



U.K politics are broken beyond repair.

Brexit won't solve anything and only add to the forced austerity and probable recession.

a reply to: FlyInTheOintment

A well written essay, thank you.

originally posted by: FlyInTheOintment
a reply to: ForteanOrg

- but basically many of them simply accept this process as the reslut of direct democracy, thus to be protected & implemented based on the honour of having given our word, collectively.

morning fly,
five words that sum this whole situation up lol!

the reslut of direct democracy


that is an absolute diamond among turds.

f.

a reply to: fakedirt

LOL -- I must confess, I too believe that (direct) "democracy doesn't work!" (to quote Homer Simpson)

I think many people have become angry that people with no political or economic understanding whatsoever were allowed to have such a monumental assault on the general stability of the nation. My dear grandmother voted to lleave - but she's 85, and has no idea what the world is like for younger people these days. Her vote was totally uninformed, and the impact of the changes will barely have taken hold by the time she moves on to the next life. I love her dearly - she is the strongest example of a moral, decent & loving, humble & dedicated woman that I have ever known - but she shouldn't have been allowed to vote, in a sort of weird way it seems unjustifiable that she was able to impact upon the stability of the next three or four generations of citizens that will follow the actual departure from the EU. I'm not saying that I'm a Remainer - I actually voted remain but then gradually realised that a leave vote was more sensible in some ways (IF it was handled correctly - this has not been the case).

originally posted by: FlyInTheOintment

I think many people have become angry that people with no political or economic understanding whatsoever were allowed to have such a monumental assault on the general stability of the nation.

Lol!!! it must be one of the few professions where qualifications apart

from the 'gift of the gab' and swivelling eyes are required.

My dear grandmother voted to lleave - but she's 85, and has no idea what the world is like for younger people these days. Her vote was totally uninformed, and the impact of the changes will barely have taken hold by the time she moves on to the next life. I love her dearly - she is the strongest example of a moral, decent & loving, humble & dedicated woman that I have ever known - but she shouldn't have been allowed to vote, in a sort of weird way it seems unjustifiable that she was able to impact upon the stability of the next three or four generations of citizens that will follow the actual departure from the EU.

I would proffer she has exactly the qualifictions (moral, decent, caring and

dedicated) required to decide the future for her issue she is leaving behind......

indeed who has more investment in their interests and future? surely not the

political class's who dont give a dam.

Don't underestimate her accrued experience she's been there and done that

and has earned the tee shirt.

The value of antiques are more reliable than the shiney new ?

I'm not saying that I'm a Remainer - I actually voted remain but then gradually realised that a leave vote was more sensible in some ways

That proves my point ..... she knew, you are just realising

Three cheers for 'grandma

(IF it was handled correctly - this has not been the case).

Spot on .....but then what else would you expect from

remainers dressed as leavers?????

a reply to: FlyInTheOintment

Sorry, no. Your granny's vote was better informed than yours. She not only lived through the most evil period in European history and experienced the aftermath, she was also educated in an era where teachers were allowed to teach and children were seen as an asset and not a commodity.

The EU president, a Pole that was a childhood friend of the German leader (they are Gen X boomers, do you understand the implications?), stated early after the vote, that Britain must be punished (do you understand the narrative?).

Once Britain is out of the EU, they will seek ways to punish and this would be the only reason Britain will suffer any negativity through the transition period.

Resolute refusal to be bullied by whatever strategies and actions the EU may make to teach the UK a lesson will not work because we are British and once Gens Y & Z have caught up with what that means they will have come to understand the EU is not a system to embrace all with kindness, fairness and parity, but rather an increasingly homogenous blob of Franco-German Faustian Demagoguery.

originally posted by: teapot
a reply to: FlyInTheOintment

Sorry, no. Your granny's vote was better informed than yours. She not only lived through the most evil period in European history and experienced the aftermath, she was also educated in an era where teachers were allowed to teach and children were seen as an asset and not a commodity.

Where did the value of experience go?

Once Britain is out of the EU, they will seek ways to punish and this would be the only reason Britain will suffer any negativity through the transition period.

Not to mention IF the remainers in Parliament who are STILL trying to revoke

the referendum and remain in the EU have their way........ the punishing will

continue if only to warn any other countries who have had enough what

will happen to them if they dont toe the EU line. And there are others in the

27 who are totally disillusioned.

Resolute refusal to be bullied by whatever strategies and actions the EU may make to teach the UK a lesson will not work because we are British and once Gens Y & Z have caught up with what that means they will have come to understand the EU is not a system to embrace all with kindness, fairness and parity, but rather an increasingly homogenous blob of Franco-German Faustian Demagoguery.

YESSSSSS

btw fly,
nice post and give nanna a high-five from me lol!

regards f.

originally posted by: ForteanOrg
Well, now.

First of all, I'm not so sure you actually will leave. The entire idea of a Brexit is nonsensical: it is not supported by the majority of your people, it would hurt both the EU and the UK, the Scots would probably go for independence, how about the Northern Irish - and even if you left, after a few years the voters will vote another parliament and the younger Brits will simply revoke the entire thing, as they fail to see why they should be limited to the Island when they could have the entire nation and the continent.

You may hope to become a nation of strong, multi-faceted and independent enterprises but the question is which market they will serve. Without the common market, your options will be limited.

You better hope we leave, unless you want to see car bombs being setting off all over Brussels.

That's not a threat from me, I am a pacifist, just what I see happening as people never like being forced under foreign occupation and there will be 17 million passed of Brits if Brexit is cancelled and at least a few of them wont be pacifists.

a reply to: FlyInTheOintment

Your main problem with technological innovation & encouraging young people is the teaching syllabus and the quality and life experiences of teaching staff. Many teachers follow their own simple route into their profession ... brought up themselves in stable, conservative with a small c middle class homes, they pass through school then onto university. They acquire their teaching degree and go straight into the profession with very limited life experiences themselves. Sure many might be good teachers, they tick their boxes every day, follow direction from above, follow instruction from the education authorities and all that.

But they won’t and will never be the ones who will drive children to innovate, break the mould or be radical in their approach to life. They can’t. Because it’s not how they themselves were brought up and educated. British education doesn’t teach independence, standing on your own two feet, innovation.

So we end up with university graduates with hobby degrees, like astrophysics & criminal psychology where job opportunities are extremely limited, manning the checkouts in supermarkets. And deliberately not furthering their careers and going for promotions, for fear that they’ll be worse off when they do get a pay rise because their student loan repayments will kick in. That’s the sad reality for so many graduates. The sadder reality is that so many bright students just fail to graduate at all, I’ve seen so many kids get a year or two into their degrees then realise they’ve made the wrong subject choice altogether, they withdraw from their courses to mitigate their losses and just disappear out of further education forever.

It’s a generational change that’s required, a root and branch overhaul of our education system, to make schools and university prepare kids for work and real life. Brexit in itself won’t cure the problem.

British values ? Strong, resolute, the Blitz spirit and all that ? Sounds great, get the flags out and pipe up Land of Hope and Glory.

But the reality is what I see daily. Young people stressed out, signed off by their GP’s for stress and anxiety, dependent on weed and coke, blues and whites, wine and vodka. Dependence on weed and coke amongst young people, often still at school, is at astonishing levels at the moment. So many have already been through the criminal justice system by the time they have to make serious life decisions about university, apprenticeships or work.

No amount of appealing to British values will cure that. Flag waving and giving a middle finger to the EU as we sail off into the sunset will not cure that. So many of our country’s problems have absolutely nothing whatever to do with the EU or our membership of it, yet here I am typing this with Sky News on in the background, this Sunday morning, and it’s all Brexit Brexit Brexit.

Brexit is important, sure. But so many issues the last three years have gone completely unaddressed because of our blinded focus on Brexit, whether it’s education, austerity and the real financial problems so many people have or whatever.

Those are the real bloody issues.

The future of Brexit (and democracy) in the short term will hinge on the Tory leadership decision.
The fascists in the EU and the media will be pushing and shilling for Rory Stewart.

originally posted by: eletheia

originally posted by: ForteanOrg
Well, now.

First of all, I'm not so sure you actually will leave. The entire idea of a Brexit is nonsensical: it is not supported by the majority of your people,

Well now......

The referendum says it is supported by the majority, with the largest turnout

in UK history.

it would hurt both the EU and the UK, the Scots would probably go for independence,

The EU will lose more than the UK .....may be a bit rocky at first, but

without the weight of and EU shackles, we will become again a lean

mean working machine, and on the way to that we will need to get rid

of the useless MP's we currently have.

how about the Northern Irish - and even if you left, after a few years the voters will vote another parliament and the younger Brits will simply revoke the entire thing, as they fail to see why they should be limited to the Island when they could have the entire nation and the continent.

In your dreams.

You may hope to become a nation of strong, multi-faceted and independent enterprises but the question is which market they will serve. Without the common market, your options will be limited.

The EU is 27 countries of which 20 are takers not contributers so the EU is

quantity and not so much quality.

The world consists of 193 nations a third is more than the whole of the EU!!!

And now the EU is loosing its second largest financial contributer

So, are you saying that a big chunk of U.K.'s debt is partly due to it's financial contributions to other countries in the EU? Just trying to understand all of this and once they leave, their debt will decrease substantially?

www.statista.com...

originally posted by: InTheLight

So, are you saying that a big chunk of U.K.'s debt is partly due to it's financial contributions to other countries in the EU? Just trying to understand all of this and once they leave, their debt will decrease substantially?

www.statista.com...

No thats not what I'm saying ...... there are 28 nations in the EU of which

twenty are subsidised by the other eight. The UK is the second largest

contributer to the financial budget of the EU, which means when we leave

there will be a vast financial hole to fill and the other countries will need to

dig deeper to fill it!!

originally posted by: eletheia

originally posted by: InTheLight

So, are you saying that a big chunk of U.K.'s debt is partly due to it's financial contributions to other countries in the EU? Just trying to understand all of this and once they leave, their debt will decrease substantially?

www.statista.com...

No thats not what I'm saying ...... there are 28 nations in the EU of which

twenty are subsidised by the other eight. The UK is the second largest

contributer to the financial budget of the EU, which means when we leave

there will be a vast financial hole to fill and the other countries will need to

dig deeper to fill it!!

Our lines are crossed somehow, I didn't mean EU's debt will decrease, I meant that U.K.'s debt will decrease. My mistake for not clarifying. So, yeah, I got it right initially. So, that's a positive to look forward to.

originally posted by: InTheLight

Our lines are crossed somehow, I didn't mean EU's debt will decrease, I meant that U.K.'s debt will decrease. My mistake for not clarifying. So, yeah, I got it right initially. So, that's a positive to look forward to.

Lol!! I think our lines are still crossed..... Its nothing to do with debt,

its financial contributions towards the running of the EU, the cost of all

the bureaucracy (including Junckers wine cellar ) and including this farce

**The farce of the EU travelling circus**


www.telegraph.co.uk...