U.S. halts F-35 equipment to Turkey, protests its plans to buy from Russia

a reply to: projectvxn

That much is true. It's a mess.

originally posted by: RadioRobert
a reply to: projectvxn

We need to kick Turkey out of NATO. we need to close and empty Incirlik AB, and leave them to their own devices. We need to treat them as an enemy 

There is so much more at stake than that. The answer(s) aren't that simple or easy, unfortunately.

It might not be easy or simple, but it's a necessary thing that needs to happen.

Turkey has put the West in a compromised position.

How can the US and other Western powers have a go at China for its illegitimate territorial claims in the South China sea, when for decades now they've been turning a blind eye to Turkey's illegitimate claims in the Aegean and East Med?

So you are right, it is not simple as it is about much more then just some missile system and jets.

If the West has any balls, it will correct it's course with Turkey to reflect the reality that Turkey is not an allied country, but a hostile and belligerent country against western nations and western interests.

But the problem is you have the sucky European weaklings, who setup factories in Turkey for the cheap labor market, who will resist and put pressure on their politicians. Even though Turkey is threatening to inundate Europe with Syrian refugees, illegally occupying part of an EU member, threatening EU members, violating EU members territorial boundaries, claiming EU members territory and resources, and has even sent three drill ships to explore for oil and gas in an EU members territorial waters/EEZ.

Turkey is allied with HAMAS, they helped ISIS, and they helped Iran circumvent sanctions for years.
They threaten not only EU members, but have threatened to wipe out Israel and called on Muslim nations to unite to attack Israel.

And lets not forget this past April, Erdogan threatened to kill Australian and New Zealand tourists visiting Gallipoli for ANZAC day and send them back in body bags.


And our politicians in the Western world still question whether this backwards ass Islamic # hole is an allied country or not?


In what bizzaro world is this sort of # the norm? Only in our alternate reality.

And you think all those issues will be easier to manage or disappear if we push Turkey into Russia's sphere of influence? That's cute. How exactly do you plan to effectively address those issues to your satisfaction once they are backed by an antagonistic superpower?

There are geopolitical ramifications (especially to the Balkan countries) that will far outlast Erdogan.

Also, while not suggesting the US cave, the S-400 sale is driven by the US refusal to sell Patriot batteries to Turkey. The "refugee threats" are the result of Turkey volunteering to house EU refugees in exchange for several promises that the EU has been slow to make good on. The Aegean disputes have been ongoing for decades/centuries. There's quite a bit of nuance to most of those issues.

It's a little more complicated than "Turkey is bad; we should kick them out". And don't get me wrong Erdogan is pretty awful. The Kurd issue boils my blood. But there's a lot, too much, at stake to approach it foolishly with chest-thumping.

originally posted by: RadioRobert
And you think all those issues will be easier to manage or disappear if we push Turkey into Russia's sphere of influence? That's cute. How exactly do you plan to effectively address those issues to your satisfaction once they are backed by an antagonistic superpower?

What makes you think Russia will be their best friend? You clearly arent aware of the history between them. Do you thinm Russia is going to share the Black Sea with them?
Lol pushing a borderline third world craphole into the arms of a rival? Mate, Turkey has already taken that path on their own.

[Quote]
There are geopolitical ramifications (especially to the Balkan countries) that will far outlast Erdogan.

Russia has one ally left in the Balkans. Serbia.
The rest are under the US sphere, or did you miss NATO anf EU expansion? Why do you think Greece Skopje did a deal so quickly suddenly on the name issue? Because it brings Skopje under Athens and Washingtons sphere more so then before and cuts Russia out. The major ramifications will be for Turkey.

[Quote]
Also, while not suggesting the US cave, the S-400 sale is driven by the US refusal to sell Patriot batteries to Turkey.

Yeh nah, completely false.
Turkey wanted full tech transfer for the Patriots. The US said no to tech transfer, but was still offering the Patriot. That wasnt good enough for Turkey. First they chose a Chinese system that you probably dont know about, changed their mind and chose Russian.

The US up till recently was still recently offering the Patriots. They probably still would sell them if the Turks didnt go with the S400.

[Quote]
The "refugee threats" are the result of Turkey volunteering to house EU refugees in exchange for several promises that the EU has been slow to make good on. The Aegean disputes have been ongoing for decades/centuries. There's quite a bit of nuance to most of those issues.

More bull# lol. Turkey has barely accepted any refugees back from the EU. They did happily take billions in payment though.

And no, the refugee threat is about the millions of Syrians who fled Syria into Turkey.

The Aegean issues have not been going on for centuries. More ignorant western opinion, kind of like saying the Jews and Palestinians have been fighting for thousands of years.

[Quote]
It's a little more complicated than "Turkey is bad; we should kick them out". And don't get me wrong Erdogan is pretty awful. The Kurd issue boils my blood. But there's a lot, too much, at stake to approach it foolishly with chest-thumping.

Almost everything Ive said should happen is already starting to be done. Its been done very slowly because its a complex situation and they want to give Turkey every chance to turn it around, but Turkey has no interest in that.

Turkey views the west as a threat. The west needs to come to terms with that fact and soon because Turkey will in the near future begin trying to develop nuclear weapons. And then the world will have a bigger mess then Iran/Iraq/Syria/Yemen combined.

originally posted by: projectvxn
If it wouldn't be too much trouble I'd love to read it.

Any idea what search terms I should use?

I recall I heard about it on the John Batchelor show back then, it could have been the Heritage Foundation, I'll try and take a look.

.a reply to: mortex

Russia has one ally left in the Balkans. Serbia. The rest are under the US sphere, or did you miss NATO anf EU expansion?

And how do you think the EU and NATO members in the Baltic will feel about Russia in the Crimea and a hostile Turkey sitting on the Bosphorus? More or less secure?

Turkey wanted full tech transfer for the Patriots.

Yes. Turkey wants to support and strengthen it's own indigenous industries. Shocking.

More bull# lol. Turkey has barely accepted any refugees back from the EU. They did happily take billions in payment though. 

They didn't get "payment." Zero dollars(euros) go to the Turkish government. The money goes directly into the EU administration of facilities and projects in Turkey. Of the €6+Billion promised, €2.35B spent/invested so far. About €2B hasn't even been allocated. 4 million Syrian refugees. Those are the EU's numbers at the link. If the EU is unhappy with the arrangement, I'm sure Turkey would be happy to ship them back! [url=https://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/eu-tuerkei-deal-deutschland-und-andere-mitgliedslaender-wollen-nicht-mehr-zahlen-a-1200973.html]Flashback[ /url]


Your entire post is empty chest-thumping. It's a lot more complicated than the one-sided story you are presenting.

originally posted by: RadioRobert
.a reply to: mortex

Russia has one ally left in the Balkans. Serbia. The rest are under the US sphere, or did you miss NATO anf EU expansion?

And how do you think the EU and NATO members in the Baltic will feel about Russia in the Crimea and a hostile Turkey sitting on the Bosphorus? More or less secure?

How do they feel about Russia already? What's going to change with that in regards to Turkey? Nothing.

You're trying to connect two separate things, where one doesn't affect the other. Nonsense and utter garbage.

Turkey wanted full tech transfer for the Patriots.

Yes. Turkey wants to support and strengthen it's own indigenous industries. Shocking.

Yes, and the USA said no to providing all that technology and know-how to Turkey. Shocking that the USA would want to protect it's technology and IP.

But in your mind, it's the USA's fault for not providing Turkey everything that it wanted, half of which was unreasonable, but still offering to sell the complete system to Turkey, the other half of what it asked for.

See, the USA isn't as clueless as you seem to be. Sure, Turkey would have bought a couple Patriot batteries from the USA. They also wanted the tech transfer. Those couple of batteries would have been the only sale. Because with that tech transfer, the Turks would have developed their own based on leading Western technology.

You obviously have never done business lol.

More bull# lol. Turkey has barely accepted any refugees back from the EU. They did happily take billions in payment though. 

They didn't get "payment." Zero dollars(euros) go to the Turkish government. The money goes directly into the EU administration of facilities and projects in Turkey. Of the €6+Billion promised, €2.35B spent/invested so far. About €2B hasn't even been allocated. 4 million Syrian refugees. Those are the EU's numbers at the link. If the EU is unhappy with the arrangement, I'm sure Turkey would be happy to ship them back! [url=https://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/eu-tuerkei-deal-deutschland-und-andere-mitgliedslaender-wollen-nicht-mehr-zahlen-a-1200973.html]Flashback[ /url]

They actually did get quite a few billion from the European Union.
Btw, this month has seen an upsurge in illegal arrivals from Turkey in Greece. So much for your Turks are playing ball on illegal immigration. LMFAO so clueless, so out of touch with reality.

Your entire post is empty chest-thumping. It's a lot more complicated than the one-sided story you are presenting.

No, there's no chest thumping in my posts. You can claim such sensationalist nonsense another 98 times, but just like the rest of your posts, you are out of touch with reality.


The reality is that Turkey was never a true ally of the West.
The reality is that Turkey was a convenient relationship, because it's territory was strategically useful against the Soviet Union and for western agendas in the Middle East.

The Soviet Union is long dead, and the US is now non-reliant on Middle East oil. China is reliant on Middle East oil though.

The reality is that Turkey is trying to develop it's own defense industry (by buying tech transfers from the west and SK so it can copy-paste with some slight exterior design mods) so that western sanctions wont prevent them from acting as they please militarily. That should be a big warning sign for any sane person who understands the situation. But for you, it's flies right over your head lol.

They are trying to have their own defense industry, because when they have acted out and broken international laws, they have been sanctioned by the west for it.

They aren't getting what they want from the West in Iraq and Syria. On the contrary, the US has told them don't touch the Kurds. The same Kurds who helped the West fight ISIS by being the boots on the ground. The same ISIS that Turkey was helping. Did you forget these facts or are they just not convenient for the pro-Turkey narrative you are trying to push?

Should I remind you that it was Turkey who helped Iran circumvent western sanctions?

Some ally eh? And you think that the US should have sold them the tech and know how for missiles and air defense systems. lol wow.

See, no chest thumping like you will claim another 98 times, just facts. Just reality.

Now, go do some more research and reading, and educate your self on this reality. Understand the facts.
Don't come back with another post full of nonsense, twisting and turning trying to make sense out of your garbage narrative for the third time. Because no matter how many times you post the same bs, the facts that prove Turkey is not an ally or friendly country to the west will not change. You can not undo what Turkey has done.

Have a nice day.

a reply to: mortex

I bet they didn’t get full technology transfer of the S-400?

a reply to: mortex

How do they feel about Russia already? What's going to change with that in regards to Turkey? Nothing. 

So you think they hate the West and consider us enemies, but are trying to get into the EU and are NATO members for self-interest.
And you also think they would never enter a relationship of convenience with Russia or China because of historical enmity?
That's coherent...

You're trying to connect two separate things, where one doesn't affect the other. Nonsense and utter garbage. 

You don't think the economic and national security of the Balkans are impacted by who sits on the Straits of Bosphorus?

But in your mind, it's the USA's fault for not providing Turkey everything that it wanted, 

No, actu, I already said a couple months ago that we should not necessarily transfer PAC-3 tech, and they absolutely cannot be a F-35 partner if they receive the S-400. That does not make Turkey's desire to strengthen their indigenous defense industries shocking or unreasonable. It is completely understandable. Most weapon sales involve some degree of technology transfer and/or industrial offsets. That's reality.

They actually did get quite a few billion from the European Union. 

You'll have to provide a citation so I can show you where the money actually went. The EU Commission just approved some more funding yesterday. You can read where the funding goes. EU is also dragging its feet on the promised visa restrictions.

you are out of touch with reality. 

Not really...

The reality is that Turkey was never a true ally of the West. 
The reality is that Turkey was a convenient relationship, because it's territory was strategically useful against the Soviet Union and for western agendas in the Middle East. 

Turkey will always be "strategically useful". You want to guarantee the security of the Balkan NATO members? You'll need Turkey. You want a pipeline to reduce EU dependence on Gazprom? You'll need Turkey. You want a counter-balance to Russian or Chinese influence in the ME and Black Sea? You'll need Turkey.

Did you forget these facts or are they just not convenient for the pro-Turkey narrative you are trying to push? 

Not at all. I mentioned the Kurds specifically in my first post in the thread. Because I'm not "pro-Turkey" -- I'm even "anti-Erdogan". But I'm also "pro-reality" , and reality doesn't look like the narrative you're trying to build. Erdogan will not be the first or last bastard we've siddled up to for the sake of the bigger picture.

just facts. Just reality. 

Except half your "facts" aren't true, and the other half ignore other relevant facts in order to build a picture that doesn't represent "reality"... That makes it propaganda.

Nope, they didn't.

They wanted full tech transfer for the Patriots, the US wouldn't give it, but was still willing to sell the Patriot to Turkey. Turkey didn't want it. They tried to go for a Chinese system, but that didn't go ahead for various reasons. In the end they've gone for a Russian system. And it's cost them the F35 at the very least, and potentially so much much more when/if CAATSA sanctions are applied.

Knowing the Turks, they are trying to create a big crisis in the Eastern Mediterranean with Cyprus/Greece/Israel, but more directly with Cyprus which draws in the EU and USA as their interests are affected ie energy policy.
What they are banking on is the potential that the West doesn't want to lose Turkey to Russia/China, even though that's a foregone conclusion at this stage, and that therefore by creating a crisis the West will turn around and negotiate with them. In return for perhaps not turning on the S400, or basing it in the far east of Turkey, and keeping the F35 in the west of Turkey, that the West will agree to their outrageous claims in the Eastern Mediterranean and Aegean Seas.

If you look at the EEZ claims by the occupied part of Cyprus, and Turkey, you'll see how outrageous they are.
They claim an EEZ all the way to the south of the Republic of Cyprus.
If you look at their EEZ claims in the Aegean Sea, you'll get a sense of how unhinged they are.
Greek islands dot the Aegean Sea, within to a few miles of the Turkish coast. The Turks want to claim an EEZ and territorial waters, up till the middle of the Aegean Sea. That is, they are claiming the territory of another country.

Greece offered to take the matter to the international courts, to resolve Turkeys claims against it, but Turkey refused. Turkey refuses because international law does not support it's position. Not in the Aegean and not in the Eastern Mediterranean.

a reply to: Forensick

originally posted by: RadioRobert
So you think they hate the West and consider us enemies, but are trying to get into the EU and are NATO members for self-interest.
And you also think they would never enter a relationship of convenience with Russia or China because of historical enmity?
That's coherent...

It's not what I think, it's what's factual.

They aren't trying to get into the EU. LOL. Get with the program and the times. Wow, how clueless are westerners? Far out, so so out of touch with what's really going on.

When did I say they wont enter into a relationship with Russia..or China?
You fail at providing a coherent, factual argument, so you resort to putting words in my mouth now? Lame, but predictable.

They already have a relationship with Russia lol. Did you miss the whole S400 thing?

You don't think the economic and national security of the Balkans are impacted by who sits on the Straits of Bosphorus?

LMFAO. Yeh, because the straits are the be all and end all. Because communist Yugoslavia wasn't interested in direct access to the Aegean/Mediterranean through the port city of Thessaloniki which a huge deal of Balkan trade passes through. LMFAO, you've got no clue, as usual.

Because, you know, Bulgaria which has a Black Sea coastline and ports, doesn't share a land border and border crossings with Greece, which leads directly to the East Med. Because you know, that little fact right there, isn't why Russia wanted to build a gas pipeline with that direct route I just stated back before the GFC, in order to bypass the straits and Turkey.
Again, you have no clue what you're on about. Why continue? Nobody is going to think less of you if you back out of this attempt at an argument you are putting up...

No, actu, I already said a couple months ago that we should not necessarily transfer PAC-3 tech, and they absolutely cannot be a F-35 partner if they receive the S-400. That does not make Turkey's desire to strengthen their indigenous defense industries shocking or unreasonable. It is completely understandable. Most weapon sales involve some degree of technology transfer and/or industrial offsets. That's reality.

There was never going to be a PAC-3 tech transfer. That's the point, that's why Turkey didn't chose to buy them.
Who said it is shocking or unreasonable for Turkey to want to strengthen their defence industry? What planet are you on, nobody is saying anything of the sort of thing that you are replying to.

You'll have to provide a citation so I can show you where the money actually went. The EU Commission just approved some more funding yesterday. You can read where the funding goes. EU is also dragging its feet on the promised visa restrictions.

So because you are uninformed and clueless, others have to provide you with sources? Because you're either 1) incapable of using Google, or 2) lazy? Ok will do, since apparently easily verifiable facts provided to you aren't good enough, here's a source.

The EU had pledged 6 billion Euro ($7.44 billion) in funding for the refugees, and promised to mobilize the second 3 billion Euro ($3.72 billion) tranche by the end of 2018.

www.hurriyetdailynews.com...

That article, from a TURKISH newspaper, says the second tranche of 3 billion Euros, has been given to Turkey. 6 billion Euros given to Turkey.

As I was saying, that you kept denying was the case, the European Union has provided funding to Turkey for the Syrian refugees.

Want to keep arguing your invalid, clueless points? Or will you accept the facts..

Not really...

All of the above proves you're argument hasn't got any basis in reality.

Turkey will always be "strategically useful". You want to guarantee the security of the Balkan NATO members? You'll need Turkey. You want a pipeline to reduce EU dependence on Gazprom? You'll need Turkey. You want a counter-balance to Russian or Chinese influence in the ME and Black Sea? You'll need Turkey.

LMFAO again how fn clueless is this guy.

Why is Turkey needed to guarantee the security of Balkan NATO members? It makes absolutely no sense.
By the same token, whose guaranteeing Turkeys security as it borders the unstable Middle East and Iran? By your flawed logic, someone is needed to provide Turkeys security lol

Why is Turkey needed for a pipeline? For example, the undersea electricity cables that are out to tender and already funded that will link Israel to Cyprus, Cyprus to the Greek island of Crete and to the mainland, don't run through any Turkish territory.
The proposed pipelines for East Med gas from Israeli and Cypriot finds, would run a similar route, and again therefore does not run through Turkish territory.

So at what stage is Turkey needed? Oh you mean Turkeys usual game of creating a crisis to blackmail the West? The difference this time is that Turkey has gone full Islamofascist dictatorship, and has proven it is not a western ally, nor a loyal NATO member, so perhaps this time the Turks will find that the West isn't so accommodating to it's games in the region. It's already been kicked out of the F35 program, the EU has put a stop to the ridiculous negotiations to admit them, and the US is preparing sanctions. The US has even lifted the arms embargo on Cyprus. The US has given it's blessing to the Greece,Israel,Cyprus alliance that's formed in the region, as a factor of stability for the region.

Starting to get the picture? Unless Turkey dramatically reverses it's course, the Turks wont get what they want this time.

Not at all. I mentioned the Kurds specifically in my first post in the thread. Because I'm not "pro-Turkey" -- I'm even "anti-Erdogan". But I'm also "pro-reality" , and reality doesn't look like the narrative you're trying to build. Erdogan will not be the first or last bastard we've siddled up to for the sake of the bigger picture.

You've demonstrated you have no clue about the reality in the region. So what reality are you talking about?

LOL you obviously don't comprehend what it means to threaten Israel, and then buy Russian weapons ignoring warnings from the US not to go ahead with it. You also fail to comprehend what it means to be a destabilizing factor for US energy policy for Europe.

Except half your "facts" aren't true, and the other half ignore other relevant facts in order to build a picture that doesn't represent "reality"... That makes it propaganda.

On the contrary actually, what I post are facts. Of course I also post my opinion too.
But just because you don't agree with the facts, you cant claim its false or propaganda without disproving it. The fact you haven't done so, and you can't, says a lot about your motives.
I wonder whose posting propaganda and lies...it certainly isn't me...But hey man, you keep trucking on.

a reply to: RadioRobert

Turkey wants you to think this sale was because the refusal of patriots. Truth is they were made an offer by the state department making them cheaper then the s400. Turkey walked away from the agreement claiming they wanted to be able to produce the pac 3 missiles themselves. Setting up manufacturing in Turkey was not an option nor in truth did it really matter. Look at the s400 sales and their argument falls apart. Russia did not agree that they could manufacture the s400 or its missiles. It was just a purchase. So requiring the US to hand over plans apparently was not that important if they did not require the same from Russia.

Honored to have been the U.S. representative at the Eastern Mediterranean Gas Forum in Egypt this past week. This forum showed that energy for peace is a reality with representatives from Egypt, Israel, Italy, Cyprus, Greece, Jordan, Palestine, France, and the EU participating.

twitter.com...

Tweet by the US Energy Secretary. Notice anything? There's no Turkey included in the East Med Gas Forum.
Even the Palestinians are there, in the same room as the Israelis. Says a lot, if you don't have the blinders on like RadioRobert does.


Here's a sneak peak why Turkey isn't included...just one of several reasons in fact.

“Whoever is on the side of Israel, let everyone know that we are against them,” Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan said on Saturday, according to Iran's Press TV.

Erdogan made the comments as he addressed senior provincial officials from the ruling AKP party in Ankara.
“We do not approve of silence on the state terror that Israel blatantly carries out in Palestine,” Erdogan said.

Erdogan has a history of slamming the Jewish state and its leader, Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, who has a history of slamming him back.

Erdogan made waves last year when he said that the spirit of Adolf Hitler had re-emerged among some Israeli policymakers.

www.jpost.com... Read the rest there.


Further reading..because some people still don't comprehend the geopolitical changes that are happening before their eyes..they still think that everything remains the same as it once did.

Cyprus has delimited its EEZ (Exclusive Economic Zone) and concluded agreements with Egypt, Lebanon and Israel according to the median line principle but Turkey insists the extent of its continental shelf and shoreline overrides this principle.

As Turkey is not a signatory to the UN Convention on the Law of the Sea (UNCLOS), this excludes an application to ITLOS (International Tribunal for the Law of the Sea). As Turkey neither recognizes the Republic of Cyprus nor the jurisdiction of the International Court of Justice, it has preferred a settlement based on the use of force.

In March US Secretary of State Mike Pompeo took part in the sixth trilateral summit of the alliance between Cyprus, Greece and Israel, and in a joint declaration the leaders agreed to support energy independence and security and to “defend against external malignant influences” in the Eastern Mediterranean and the broader Middle East.

In other words, Turkey and it's new allies..

Now Turkey has been excluded from the F-35 program, and the Senate’s bipartisan Eastern Mediterranean Security and Energy Partnership Act, which defines Greece as a valuable member of NATO, Israel a steadfast ally and Cyprus a key strategic partner, chalks out a new strategic alliance.

This has been confirmed by Erdogan, who in a presentation of the S-400 system stated that despite the political and military pacts Turkey has established with the West, it is from there the greatest threats come – politically, economically and culturally. Greece and Greek Cyprus have been hanging like a Sword of Damocles over their heads.

www.jpost.com...


Are we starting to comprehend now Robert? This is only a brief selection of what popped up first.
Either you are not paying attention, or you are oblivious to reality, or you are a paid troll. Which the Turkish regime does employ especially within their fanatical diaspora communities.

a reply to: mortex

There's nothing blind about acknowledging that Turkey sits on prime real estate that affects Europe, the near east, etc., Or that the realities are complicated. Erdogan will not be the first or last bastard we've cozied up to for convenience sake, and the way we address the issues presented by his unpopular regime will far outlast Erdogan. The world doesn't exist in the pretty black-and-white pictures painted by nationalist zealots-- be they military dictators or people posting anonymously on the internet overcompensating for whatever they weren't endowed with.

a reply to: RadioRobert


You're argument is what exactly? Telling us that Turkey sits on strategically important real estate? And why are you telling us this, when nobody has said anything to the contrary?

You talk about things not being black and white, but being more complicated. And the crux of your whole argument is that Turkey sits on valuable terrain, Incirilik this Incirilik that...Very one dimensional thinking, very black and white.

You're stuck in a Cold War western mentality. Ohhh we have to appease the Turks and keep them on side or else they'll join the Russians.

Well guess what mr geostrategy, they already have moved to Russia's side.
It's delusional, stuck in the past Western politicians who fail to comprehend the new reality in the region that is keeping the final tethers connected. But they are being cut slowly one by one.
Turkey's been given far too much time to come good again more so then it deserves, but it hasn't. If anything, Turkey's anti-Western anti-Israel position has only hardened.


Turkey has made three major errors that will prove fatal in time. And it's other ongoing transgressions will only be used against it.
1) They have threatened Israel. Repeatedly. They have even gone so far as to threaten those who stand with Israel.
2) They have cozied up with Israel's enemies such as HAMAS. Erdogan regularly hosts Hamas leaders in Turkey.
3) They have threatened and endangered US energy/foreign policy (in the East. Med).

Their other transgressions that will be used against them, will be their on going violations of Greek & Cypriot national boundaries, which NATO is well aware of (I assume you know how NATO is well aware of it, in real time).
And it's on going illegal occupation of the northern part of Cyprus. There are UN Security Council resolutions about this that state Turkey must withdrawal it's occupation forces.
As part of it's on going occupation, it has broken the Geneva Convention. It has sought to change the demographics of the island by settling Turks from the mainland in the occupied zones.

The smartest thing Turkey can do, is to make peace with Greece and Cyprus. Because those are sticks that will be used against Turkey if Turkey continues on it's present path.
But you see, Turkey for decades has been allowed to do these things and get away with them by the West, because it sits on strategically important real estate. However it has now made several fatal errors.

You think Incirlik is the be all and end all? What if the US opens a base just south of the Turkish border?..radars watching Iran and all. Incirlik isn't needed anymore.
What if the new OTH radar that Greece and Israel built on the western side of Crete in the East Med, can monitor Iran as well? Australia's OTH radar can see up to China and Japan, and that's a much further distance then Crete to Iran. So is the radar in Turkey all that important anymore?

Seems you're the one who sees thing as black and white with an outdated cold war perspective. The reality in the region has changed. Turkey was given a chance to repent, it chose not to. So it was dumped from the F35 program. No 5th gen fighters for Turkey. Instead the US is looking to sell some of those F35's that would have been sold to Turkey, to neighbouring Greece instead. Even Poland is looking at F35's now.
Time will tell if they are giving Turkey any more time to repent, or if Turkey will be the next Iran.

a reply to: mortex

Alienating Turkey isn't going to solve any of the issues you list. Especially when we could alternatively simply suffer Erdogan until 2023. You think simply telling Turkey to pound sand is going to end the fifty+ yr division of Cyprus? You think it will increase the security of Israel, or Greece, or the other Balkan states?

An OTH site can't replace the TPY-2.

Incirlik is going to get reduced to a skeleton crew as soon as our Syria adventure is over. But having it there, in place, is a hell of a lot better than being asked to leave, which is what you seem to be in a hurry to force.

Even your language shows you aren't looking at this dispassionately. Pump the breaks. Take a deep breath. Get some fresh air

originally posted by: RadioRobert
a reply to: mortex

Alienating Turkey isn't going to solve any of the issues you list. Especially when we could alternatively simply suffer Erdogan until 2023. You think simply telling Turkey to pound sand is going to end the fifty+ yr division of Cyprus? You think it will increase the security of Israel, or Greece, or the other Balkan states?

An OTH site can't replace the TPY-2.

Incirlik is going to get reduced to a skeleton crew as soon as our Syria adventure is over. But having it there, in place, is a hell of a lot better than being asked to leave, which is what you seem to be in a hurry to force.

Even your language shows you aren't looking at this dispassionately. Pump the breaks. Take a deep breath. Get some fresh air

You again fail to realize that it is TURKEY that is distancing it self from the Western world. It is not the Western world that is pushing Turkey away, it is TURKEY that is pulling away.

You literally have no clue or comprehension about what the reality in the region is.
You still think this is the Cold War. lol


Nobody is alienating Turkey. Let's look at the reality of the situation in the East Med/Aegean.

For decades Turkey has been allowed to get away with almost anything. Despite NATO being fully aware of what Turkey is doing, since air defences are linked, despite evidence being presented to NATO showing Turkey's violations, nothing has ever been done. Even today, nothing is being done. There's just more lip service provided, which the Turks are accustomed to from Western powers.

Turkey, breaking agreements and treaties, invaded Cyprus and occupies 1/3 of the island in the north. There are UN Security Council resolutions which condemn Turkey and require it to remove it's occupation forces. Nothing has been done since these resolutions came into being to enforce these resolutions. Iraq got bombed for violating UN resolutions.

Turkey has violated the Geneva Conventions by changing the demographics of the island by re-settling people from Turkey to the occupied zones of Cyprus.

Turkey is now violating the EEZ of Cyprus over the oil/gas exploration.

In 1955 they staged a pogrom against the remaining ethnic Greeks mainly in Istanbul, based on a fabricated "fake news" that Ataturks house in Thessaloniki had been destroyed. It still stands today as a museum FYI.

Don't even get me started on their acts against religious minorities.
Let alone what they've done to the Kurds. In the 1980's they destroyed thousands of Kurdish villages in the south east of the country, completely wiping them off the face of the earth.

Nothing has ever been done to Turkey in regards to all the human rights violations, human rights abuses, abuses against religious minorities, it's violations and transgressions against neighbouring countries, and so on.

The US has, under Trump, started to apply some pressure. An American pastor was jailed by Turkey so Trump started to amp up the pressure on the Turks forcing them to release him.
They've put some sanctions/tariffs on Turkey, which has had a negative economic impact on Turkey as a taste of what's to come if they don't fall back in line.
They've kicked Turkey out of the F35 program, with CAATSA sanctions almost certainly to follow soon enough.


But none of this, not even harsher economic sanctions, will work to force Turkey back into line.
Because what people like you fail to understand, is that Turkey doesn't want to be under the Western/US sphere anymore.
Turkey wants to be "free", and it thinks that by switching sides to Russia & China, that it will have the freedom to do more of what it pleases.

You failed to see many warning signs, and many more will come, such as Erdogan blaming the US for the fake coup attempt, and used it to whip up even more anti-US/Western sentiment. Turkey is one of the most anti-US/Western/Israeli countries on the planet.

But only fools whose minds are Cold War relics fail to see what's right in front of them, and how things have evolved in the region.

Incirlik this, Incirlik that.
Again, completely ignoring the fact that the US has and continues to take steps to nullify the effect of Turkey closing the base to NATO/US.

Completely and utterly out of your depth here, without even so much as single clue to navigate your way out. LOL.

But keep talking about what you think my language says, or whatever other nonsense you dream up in an attempt to try and save face now and come off as coherent and intelligent.

Further..recent developments..

The US has asked Mediterranean countries/ports not to assist (ie allow the to dock) an Iranian tanker running oil to Syria. Turkey has decided to assist the Iranians. The tanker is due in the Turkish port of Mersin.

The US has also withdrawn it's offer to Turkey for the Patriot missile system.