Hypatia

Since I consider the violent beginnings of the Early Christian Church as having been orchestrated by a 'secret society', as well as input from some of the more reasonable posters here on this board (in relation to the religion board), I've decided to place it here.

Hypatia represents, to me, the turning point in the history of our present era. Her murder and the events surrounding it, are fascinating to me...especially these days, with the resurgence of the 'Feminine' in our society.

For a short version of the murder...

www.cosmopolis.com...

For a slightly longer background of the events and the persons involved...
(good reading, nonetheless)

poly.polyamory.org...

And lastly...about halfway down the thread...some more input on the subject from me (the poem sucks, I know)

www.abovetopsecret.com...

My question is, after reading this through, do you agree that the martyrdom of Hypatia should stand as the moment the dark ages began and that the Early Christian Church should be made wholly responsible for the act? It has never been fully blamed for this...

Originally posted by masqua


My question is, after reading this through, do you agree that the martyrdom of Hypatia should stand as the moment the dark ages began and that the Early Christian Church should be made wholly responsible for the act? It has never been fully blamed for this...

The murder of Hypatia, at least in my opinion, does indeed qualify as one of the events characteristic of the beginning of the dark ages. After Socrates was murdered, Plato fled Athens because he did not want "philosophy to be sinned against twice". Unfortunately, philosophy was sinned against once again, and in a very large way, in Hypatia's murder.

However, it would be difficult to blame Christianity, or even the Church, for her murder. Christianity teaches a doctrine that is, in reality, often the exact opposite of what individual Christians believe, as well as opposite to how they act, and Hypatia's murder is a perfect example.

I say that I cannot blame the Church because the crime was not committed by an official Church order; rather, it was the act of a fanatical mob, and is illustrative of the herd mentality. Therefore, I place the blame not on religion, but on fanaticsm, prejudice, and bigotry. The scary thing is that folks very much like Hypatia's murderers, oozing with fanatical hatred of everyone who dares point out their erroneous teachings, are still very much around, with several on this very forum. The dark ages aren't quite dead yet.

Good post.

Originally posted by Masonic Light
The scary thing is that folks very much like Hypatia's murderers, oozing with fanatical hatred of everyone who dares point out their erroneous teachings, are still very much around, with several on this very forum. The dark ages aren't quite dead yet.

By that reasoning I guess you could say that (judging by the current resurgence of fanatical faith in America and elsewhere) not only are the dark ages not quite dead yet, but that we have, as a society, been moving back TOWARDS the dark ages rather than AWAY.

Originally posted by Masonic Light

(...) it would be difficult to blame Christianity, or even the Church, for her murder. Christianity teaches a doctrine that is, in reality, often the exact opposite of what individual Christians believe, as well as opposite to how they act, and Hypatia's murder is a perfect example.

I say that I cannot blame the Church because the crime was not committed by an official Church order; rather, it was the act of a fanatical mob, and is illustrative of the herd mentality. Therefore, I place the blame not on religion, but on fanaticsm, prejudice, and bigotry. (...)

That "fanatical mob" was goaded by Archbishop Cyril. You might say that he was not following the spirit of Christian teachings. However, intolerance is consubstantial with monotheism since this type of religion is exclusivist and demonizes all the other sorts.

In Mankind and Mother Earth, Arnold Toynbee's last book, he describes an incident that illustrates this. During a siege, the besieging army found out that the king of the fortified city that they were investing had sacrificed his own son to the gods of the city so that they would help them win the battle. The leader of that army immediately decided to put an end to the siege and go home, because at that time the general consensus was that no god would decline to grant a wish so forcefully asked for.

It was a time when gods were territorial and had total "jurisdiction" over the lands occupied by their worshippers, and everybody accepted this state of affairs and respected everybody else's gods. Every battle was understood to be a battle between territorial gods, and the greater the sacrifice, the greater the chances that one's own gods would come to one's aid. Religious tolerance was the norm.

Then the Hebrew people decided to invent monotheism, hence intolerance, and from that moment on religious intolerance started to spread. Christianity, which is just a Jewish heresy (like Islam), inherited this "inborn" trait, so that it was like a Dr. Frankenstein's monster, created by the Jews themselves, that set out to destroy its own creator. So far the Jews have been unable to put together a Golem that will come to their rescue.

Like a blinded Samson, they would rather bring the house down in a final Armageddon than pay back a historic debt owed to their Semitic blood brothers, the Arabs, who treated them as their honored guests when the lands of Islam were the First World, along with Byzantium and China.

To be fair, one has to mention the fact that some historians claim there is no proof of the incident involving St. Cyril's mob, and that Hypatia did not die a tragic death.

The Theosophical Society says that Annie Besant, their onetime World President, was the reincarnation of Hypatia, and George Bernard Shaw, which I seem to recall was a theosophist, used to say that she was the best orator in all the British Empire. She must've been quite a show at the lectern.

(to be continued in a new thread titled "Theosophy, Rosicrucians, Masons and the Lizard Mob")

There has been quite an interum since I last posted on this thread but I can honestly blame this on the quality of the responses. It caused me to do some serious thinking and reading.

ML...what you said about the sanctioned killing of Socrates for the crime of inciting youth gave me pause. It very well may be construed as the beginnings of the Dark Ages when intelligent discussions become grounds for the death penalty. Perhaps I was hasty to ascribe Christianity alone as the vehicle which produced the retrofit of ignorance which was the hallmark of those times. Somehow, I think we're still climbing out of that steep sided mud wallow.

In that I agree with what you say, sebatwerk. We may be slipping back into a time when one can say stupid things like: "When we're making war, we're really making peace" (to give an example of pure Orwellian double speak). 'War is love', indeed.

Macrento...Your excellent post had me scrambling for anything I had onhand of the writings of Annie Besant. What did show itself handy was The Lesser Mysteries. I also browsed through www.theosophical.ca...
in order to better understand your post.
OMG...what a character she must have been!

ie...Annie Besant...
(quote) "The rebellion against popular Christianity was due to the awakening and the growth of conscience; it was the conscience that revolted, as well as the intelligence, against teachings dishonouring to God and man alike, that represented God as a tyrant and man as essentially evil, gaining salvation by slavish submission" (unquote)

I also agree with Macrento on Archbishops Cyrils' involvement, even if he had no direct hand in Hypatia's murder. He was known to be jealous of her popularity with Alexandrians and saw her as a pagan remnant to be expunged. The ferocity of the attack had more to do with religious fanatacism than mob frenzy, IMO.

Speaking of territorial Gods...how does the rise of Apollo relate to the roots of the Christian era? Can it be related to the onset of the Patriarchy and the severance of earthly Deity? Sobering thoughts indeed, the 'put down' of the Dionysian contact to God(s) through the befuddlement of the physical body must have had great impact on the formation of Christian thought.

As Annie Besant says in the Lesser Mysteries (quote accredited to Plotinus):

"...here, in earth life, ecstacy is but a flash...Man can cease to become man, and become God; but man cannot be God and man at the same time".

Bacchus...fetch me another beer and give a round of wine to Socrates and his reveller friends. In Vino Veritas!






[edit on 22-3-2005 by masqua]

[edit on 22-3-2005 by masqua]

Thank you for the flattering remark. I never had to do too much researching on the matter, though. I grew up listening to stories like Hypatia's. It might be that so far there have been only two Hypatias in history, and I had to put up with the second one, who unfortunately just happened to be my own mother. You see, her father was a theosophist (a Mason, too) and he had an extravagant taste when it came to naming his children. The other three were Roberto Alcione, Corinna (the Greek poetess) and America (because she was born on Oct. 12).

This second Hypatia was an atheist and she brought us up as atheists. That odd name embarrassed her so much that she decided to call herself Patty. I never joined any religion or world brotherhood, and it's probably a good idea to keep clear of all such organizations. I used to respect the Th. Society but now I just don't know what to make of it.

For example, one of the first and best-known theosophists, Col. Leadbeater, wrote a book in which he describes a Martian civilization, down to the last details. He describes the forests there, etc. etc. Maybe he wasn't an impostor, but just a channeler being lied to by the jokers on the other side of the Veil of Isis.

I inherited about five boxfuls of books like that one, including one with what are claimed to be maps of Lemuria and Atlantis, based (the book) on a series of lectures given by Annie Besant in 1920 in Benares, India. If you have any questions about the Society I would gladly try and find the answers in those books, but it might be best to send them by e-mail to any of the many chapters it has all over the world since I'm not an expert.

Weeks ago I probably offended the entire Masonic crowd here by telling what my grandfather eventually came to think about Masonic meetings. This was in a thread in this same section on secret societies.
*

Originally posted by Macrento
It might be that so far there have been only two Hypatias in history, and I had to put up with the second one, who unfortunately just happened to be my own mother.

Wow...I bet there's only a handful who would have such a fabulous name...Patty sounds great too. The story of Hypatia's rise and eventual demise must have been like a family tradition around your house.

The local Theosophical Society is a short drive from me but so far I've found all the information I need available on their website. The sheer volume of books, papers and lectures contained in the files is enough to keep me busy. I've enjoyed reading Blavatsky, Kuhn and Hermes for as long as I've had internet access. (Incidentally, there is a local writer, Tom Harpur, who has had great effect with his book called; 'The Pagan Christ and he quotes from Kuhn extensively)

The Society still has relevance today...since Harpur is no lightweight on the topic of Religion.

In a nutshell, I see the Society and its main focus as an attempt to prove that, somewhere amidst the ruins and scratchings of the Antidiluvian world lies a kernel of truth...that a great civilization will be discovered which ruled the world over, had a technology similar or superior to ours, became corrupt and enslaved the populations for many generations...and vanished without a trace. The one thing that did survive was snatches of religion and bits of knowledge held by those who survived the cataclysm.

There are plenty of examples...pyramids and earthworks follow similar patterns the world over and the entire personna of Hermes, Thoth and Quatzecoatl is that they are messengers from a great civilization which had been destroyed, bringing back architecture, writing (etc) to the surviving slaves and rebuilding.

About those five boxfuls of books...what a great handmedown! I hope my meagre library will be a good source for my sons someday, but I'm sure those boxes are a treasure.

About your grandfathers opinion...I'm sure that the good Masons here can see how telling the story could not be anything but good 'grist for the ATS mill'.

I read through the thread as it was happening and, even thought the conversation got 'heated a bit' myself...but I doubt they would hold a grudge...if that were indeed so, I think it would soon be evident to them that such an ignoble intent would be harmful to them.

Btw...I have an eardogged copy of Toynbee's 'Mankind and Mother earth'...man, this ATS is a great site for syncronicity!


[edit on 23-3-2005 by masqua]

I'd like to add a little comment. I'm in awe of the posts in this thread, definitely worthy of deny ignorance.

A question about the Dark Ages.
I have been reading a book called Catastrophe, by David Keys. It speaks of the changes in the ancient world , beginning with 535 and the eruption of Krakatoa. As much as the events you describe depict a downward movement of civilization, I think this natural disaster signalled the beginning of the Dark Ages.

The subsequent environmental calamity, he believes, affected human civilization from Mongolia to Constantinople, precipitating plague, famine, death, great migration, the fall of the great Mexican city of Teotihuacan, the Anglo-Saxon victory over the Celts, and may even have played a role in the rise of Islam.

www.luminet.net...
(fascininataing book, BTW)

Originally posted by DontTreadOnMe
changes in the ancient world , beginning with 535 and the eruption of Krakatoa. As much as the events you describe depict a downward movement of civilization, I think this natural disaster signalled the beginning of the Dark Ages.

The road to recovery was full of times of catastrophy, and Krakatoa certainly ranks among high among them. Floods, earthquakes and disease have the effect of 'two steps forward, one step back' for the re-emergence of civilizations springing up willy nilly on this planet.
The timing of Krakatoa certainly co-incides with MLs notion that the death penalty of Socrates and his date with a hemlock shooter marked the beginning. So, yes...it seems right to use Krakatoa as a marker.
I wonder what's next...





[edit on 24-3-2005 by masqua]

The thing about the eruption is that it caused other events to fall in line. Temperature differences, crop failures, hunger and diseas all led to civil unrest and migrations of large numbers of people. Civil unrest also led to the rise of Islam and the Fall of the Roman Empire.
I'm saying that these calamaties may have forced people to do things they would not have done in better times. Natural events played a big role in the changes in society at that time.

I often wondered what people meant by the term Dark Ages, and thought it only meant a dark period in civilization.
With the huge volcano eruption, dark ages really probably meant at least part the earth had dimmed light for a few years.

I've always considered the darkness to represent the repression of knowledge...allowing wisdom to flow only from one direction...the church and its priesthoods.
But I see what you mean...the skies literally became darkened by the volcanic eruption of climate changing proportions.
As an interesting example, I recently read an article in space.com that talked about a dust cloud our solar system is to pass through over the next 8 years. The threat is that the amount of space dust between our sun and earth will have the effect of darkening our skies and giving us a drop in temperatures globally.

Crops would fail, winters would be extended...bla bla bla. A regular little 'ice age'.

It's all speculation on their part, but the cloud is still here and we are going through it...that's no doubt. The pertinent part is that the thickest section of the dust is where we will be in 2012.

Kinda makes me wonder if the Mayan calendar perhaps had this event in mind for the Long Count.

Oops, I thought this was a thread about porn star Hyapatia Lee....sorry....

Originally posted by masqua
As an interesting example, I recently read an article in space.com that talked about a dust cloud our solar system is to pass through over the next 8 years. The threat is that the amount of space dust between our sun and earth will have the effect of darkening our skies and giving us a drop in temperatures globally.

I tried to find it on science.com. Could you please point me in the right direction?
Is this it?
www.space.com...

Yes...that's exactly the article i read about 2 weeks ago. Nice job finding it as it had dropped off the page.
You'll notice how it increases by a factor of 3 running up to 2013.

It was now my turn to go poking around in the corners. I'd never heard about T. Harpur. So he's an Anglican priest that defrocked himself when he realized that there had been no Jesus, but just a "literal treatment of allegorical pagan tradition" (salvation myths like Horus). What a turnabout!!! Like St. Augustine, but the opposite way.

Even the channellers making the zaniest claims, the kind that ATS laughs at, like Jane Roberts (Seth) and Laura Knight (Cassiopaeans), say that Jesus did live and preach (but was not crucified).

H.G. Wells, too, is a believer in that basic sense. This is what he has to say: "Our only direct sources of information for the life and teachings of Jesus are the four Gospels. All four of them furnish us with descriptions of a well-defined personality. One is compelled to say, 'Here we have a man. This cannot be something made up.' "

It seems like all of the better-known ufologists scorn channellings. Michael Salla places them at the very bottom of his list of the seven types of evidence.

He's the creator of "exopolitics" (www.exopolitics.com) and the Yahoo Group called "prepare4contact", whose discussion forum has a recent message of his with a discussion between him and Friedman on the Lazar case. Why has ATS invited Friedman for an interview and not his contradictor, Mr. Salla?
*

Originally posted by masqua
Since I consider the violent beginnings of the Early Christian Church as having been orchestrated by a 'secret society', as well as input from some of the more reasonable posters here on this board (in relation to the religion board), I've decided to place it here.

Hypatia represents, to me, the turning point in the history of our present era. Her murder and the events surrounding it, are fascinating to me...especially these days, with the resurgence of the 'Feminine' in our society.

For a short version of the murder...

www.cosmopolis.com...

For a slightly longer background of the events and the persons involved...
(good reading, nonetheless)

poly.polyamory.org...

And lastly...about halfway down the thread...some more input on the subject from me (the poem sucks, I know)

www.abovetopsecret.com...

My question is, after reading this through, do you agree that the martyrdom of Hypatia should stand as the moment the dark ages began and that the Early Christian Church should be made wholly responsible for the act? It has never been fully blamed for this...

Doesn't it make you wonder about the great minds and what we have lost, and how advanced they were, I often think there was something special guiding their minds.