Objectivity versus Subjectivity and does the Universe have a purpose

I had a discussion someone on if there is any reason to worship God. I said the idea of God can be interpreted as meaning the entire human collective. So serving God or worshiping God can be thought of as making a trans-personal commitment to the welfare and well-being of the human race. So the act of worshiping God can be thought of as the act of being selfless in the service of the people in your sphere of influence. Our joy and happiness comes from helping other people achieve joy and happiness. Our salvation comes from helping other people achieve their salvation.

The other guy then said, "You have a need to worship? Enjoy! I'll remain puzzled." I have had arguments with this guy in the past an I know he is man of science, an atheist, and he has no interest in having a belief in God. But regardless, here is my response:

You are puzzled because you have a concrete conviction we live in a materialistic clockwork Universe where only objective experiences are real. My experience with conversations around God fall into the realm of subjectivity. I totally get that you think your point-of-view is "better" than ones not based on objective evidence.

But when we are talking about God and why worship God it is purely in the realm of subjective judgments. How can I prove to you the value of worship if I can't prove to you God exists. In your world, everything in the Universe is just meaningless patterns of energy swirling around according to the laws of physics with no one pattern of energy being more meaningful than any other. In my world, there is a purpose to the Universe.

So what is the purpose. The Universe exists which is a violation of the law of conservation of energy. In spite of all the forces of chaos pulling pieces apart there is some kind of unifying principle creating a meaningful order to the Universe. We are made of the very thing we are experiencing. We are the Universe's way of experiencing itself. We are not mindless automatons but conscious beings being pulled by a higher power to experience a greater unity with ourselves and the Universe.

The Universe and evolution exist in order for consciousness to experience a deeper appreciation of our unity with God. You can't appreciate the experience of having unity with God's perfection unless you suffer from having all the imperfections of separation. We experience slivers of unity with God's perfection through our appreciation of great beauty and great performance. But in your view, we have no purpose other than to just die.

All this talk about God, why worship God, does the Universe have a purpose does not exist in the World like the way you and I experience an "apple". All this talk only occurs in the realm of subjective experience which you don't consider to be valid, real, or meaningful.

So there you have it. You are puzzled because you refuse to participate in certain assumptions some people consider to be true without any proof. Your way of thinking, your posts, everything you say, is so predictable and automaton like.

a reply to: dfnj2015

Perhaps you should put forth the effort to prove your claims in an objective manner? And agree that subjective claims are not important in a question of whether something exists or not?

Why would you accept a premise that has not been shown to have merit?

Why would you dismiss people who think you have not met the standards to make such a claim? Aren’t they being more reasonable than you?

originally posted by: Woodcarver
a reply to: dfnj2015

Perhaps you should put forth the effort to prove your claims in an objective manner? And agree that subjective claims are not important in a question of whether something exists or not?

Why would you accept a premise that has not been shown to have merit?

Why would you dismiss people who think you have not met the standards to make such a claim? Aren’t they being more reasonable than you?

Perhaps you should put forth objective evidence that you or reality exists lol. Seeing as how your brain is working on data continuously collected from the past along with additional circuitry based propagation delays.

Cheers - Dave

originally posted by: Woodcarver
a reply to: dfnj2015

Perhaps you should put forth the effort to prove your claims in an objective manner? And agree that subjective claims are not important in a question of whether something exists or not?

Why would you accept a premise that has not been shown to have merit?

Why would you dismiss people who think you have not met the standards to make such a claim? Aren’t they being more reasonable than you?

Reality exists. The law of conservation of energy was violated. QED.

I never said subjective claims are not important. I would say subjective claims are more important. Can you please stop trying to prove your points with subjective claims, that is, "having merit". Please be objective. Thank you.

a reply to: dfnj2015

So what’s god plan then? To know itself through us? Preposterous. What are these subjective ideas that give you the impression there is some meaning to it all?

a reply to: dfnj2015

Somebody did some mushrooms lately didn't they??

originally posted by: dfnj2015
...
So there you have it. You are puzzled because you refuse to participate in certain assumptions some people consider to be true without any proof. Your way of thinking, your posts, everything you say, is so predictable and automaton like.

Well: at least he's got someone who's got it all figured-out, telling him what's what.
Silly puzzlers.

a reply to: surfer_soul

I thought it was obvious what God's plan is as stated in the OP. We exist to experience the greatness in the Universe.

originally posted by: dug88
a reply to: dfnj2015

Somebody did some mushrooms lately didn't they??

Always the ad hominem attacks.

originally posted by: Nothin

originally posted by: dfnj2015
...
So there you have it. You are puzzled because you refuse to participate in certain assumptions some people consider to be true without any proof. Your way of thinking, your posts, everything you say, is so predictable and automaton like.

Well: at least he's got someone who's got it all figured-out, telling him what's what.
Silly puzzlers.

Unless you argue someone else's position you really do not understand their point of view.

a reply to: bobs_uruncle

RE: "Perhaps you should put forth objective evidence that you or reality exists lol. "

That was my thinking exactly.

It's so funny how people think objectivity is more important than subjectivity do so by expressing emphatic opinions. I guess everyone has a bias to their favorite dogma.

Too many atheists and nihilists in the World completely oblivious to their own self-inconsistency. And too many materialists thinking about how best to deny the existence of consciousness. Or the irony missed by people choosing not to believe in free-will.

a reply to: dfnj2015

Why are we stuck here on earth then?

I get your point though, my point is we can’t honestly say we know the plan or even if there is one. Perhaps in some cases it is better to have questions than answers.

Also I wouldn’t have taken the mushrooms reply as an ad hominem attack, to understand reality we need change our perspective on it.

originally posted by: dfnj2015

originally posted by: Nothin

originally posted by: dfnj2015
...
So there you have it. You are puzzled because you refuse to participate in certain assumptions some people consider to be true without any proof. Your way of thinking, your posts, everything you say, is so predictable and automaton like.

Well: at least he's got someone who's got it all figured-out, telling him what's what.
Silly puzzlers.

Unless you argue someone else's position you really do not understand their point of view.

Is it cool to believe that one can understand so much?

originally posted by: surfer_soul
a reply to: dfnj2015

So what’s god plan then? To know itself through us? Preposterous. What are these subjective ideas that give you the impression there is some meaning to it all?

If I could care enough for the subject I would probably end up on the gnostic side of things but if God's plan of knowing itself through us that would cancel the whole omniscience thing out, wouldn't it?

Nah...I kind of get the feeling the OP is telling us that we are like raindrops returning to the ocean. while falling we experience stuff and upon touching the water the raindrop becomes the ocean and the experience is shared. In that aspect God (the ocean) would be more experiencing "reality" through "us" (the raindrops but just as much the ocean itself merely temporary seperated)...

I assume I missed the point by a mile but I like the thread...lol...happy weekend all

Peace

ETA: S+F

a reply to: dfnj2015

I don't understand the difference between Objectivity and Subjectivity.

I said the idea of God can be interpreted as meaning the entire human collective.

That would be god/dess Human. S/he is not immortal. Living as long as humanity. An atheist told me that worship is an extreme sort of relationship to Her so I don't talk about that.

being selfless in the service of the people in your sphere

That would be other god and goddess Neighbor. Brother Neighbor and Sister Neighbor. I am not selfless toward them.

Our joy and happiness comes from helping other people achieve joy and happiness.

I saw Brother Neighbor and Sister Neighbor today. They looked like homeless people. I gave them $20.00 because they were together; as opposed to giving 10 to one and 10 to another. Good thing they were together because I didn't have $10.00. They recognized me from last year. We were all happy.

Our salvation comes from helping other people achieve their salvation.

I don't know what that is. I used to say words like that but they had no life in them. I don't say things like that any more.

..um the rest of your post is like an open letter to someone you were talking to.

a reply to: operation mindcrime

I assume I missed the point by a mile but I like the thread...lol...happy weekend all

Peace

Thank you

originally posted by: dfnj2015

originally posted by: dug88
a reply to: dfnj2015

Somebody did some mushrooms lately didn't they??

Always the ad hominem attacks.

It was mostly a joke....chill out....i've just found mushrooms bring such thoughts.

To really understand something you have to be able to know the parts and the whole and seek how they are connected.

I became a believer of unknown things (spiritual manefistations) because unknown things proved they existed. Some human made religions are pure falseness because they say faith in their idea of spiritual world is needed to experience the spiritual world.

Instead of proving "god" show and explain tools that are useful to take an as objective measurement (by decreasing subjectivity).

A few concepts and tools:
1. Energetic body states
2. Laying of hands.
3. Synchronicity and entanglement.
4. How the conscious and unconscious are connected and how you can use energetic body states to bend Synchronicity to get information you need.

a reply to: dfnj2015

God is dreaming the person you believe yourself to be.
Everything is dreamstuff..... no thing really exists.

'We are such stuff that dreams are made on.' Shakespeare.

A case of misidentification perhaps?

Worship no thing.

originally posted by: dfnj2015
a reply to: bobs_uruncle

RE: "Perhaps you should put forth objective evidence that you or reality exists lol. "

That was my thinking exactly.

It's so funny how people think objectivity is more important than subjectivity do so by expressing emphatic opinions. I guess everyone has a bias to their favorite dogma.

Too many atheists and nihilists in the World completely oblivious to their own self-inconsistency. And too many materialists thinking about how best to deny the existence of consciousness. Or the irony missed by people choosing not to believe in free-will.

If one thinks logically we may exist within this construct, but the part of us that observes the construct is purely subjective. We are within the construct but separate from its objectiveness.

Cheers - Dave