Horrified Venezuelan Residents wake up to find their taps 'running with oil...'

a reply to: ElectricUniverse

Maduro and his socialist dictatorship is claiming that the U.S. is causing this when Maduro and his dictatorship have total control over all infrastructure in Venezuela.

This stinks of oil and has the CIA and regime change written all over it.

a reply to: Puppylove

Technically this part is true. If it were not for the hard work and ingenuity of all the peoples that came before. Your father would never have that store. He'd have been a hunter gatherer with a 20 year life span assuming he survives child birth, predation, a minor injury that was lethal then but easily curable now, etc.

I could not disagree more. The father who owns the store has had no inherent advantage over the person who takes it for his own. They, too, would have been subject to all of those possibilities had it not been for societal evolution. The cry of "you didn't build that" is no more than a call for legalizing theft.

Revolution is always an option should enough people get on board, and should they do so and decide your dad's store is theirs... well it's theirs, because the strength of any society is the people and their willingness to work with, accept, and support said society.

I also disagree wholeheartedly with "might makes right." Your words are a fancy way of saying that.

You speak of the evolution of society, but your position indicates a devolution of society. The very things that cause our society to become capable of providing a better life for others are negated by the actions you describe as evolution. We have already had our time with "might makes right," and it was long ago when we were indeed hunters/gatherers, we indeed had to survive childbirth against greater odds, we indeed spent our days watching out for predators, and we indeed died regularly from easily-cured ailments.

No. Just no. We have evolved past that. We should not go back. I will not go back without a fight.

TheRedneck

a reply to: TheRedneck

I disagree with revolution unless necessary, it becomes necessary when too much power enters the hands of the few and it results in the subjection of the many. It's only ever when the subjugated majority rise up that it's theft in the minds of many of you, but never theft when a powerful few manipulate and alter laws, governments, and society itself to benefit them and hold others down. The elite are never the bad guys because they hide their theft through the illusion of legitimacy because they control the very government and legal system itself. Nothing the elite do to further the wealth gap and subjugate the people further will ever be considered theft because the very laws they create and use to control and subjugate say it's not.

You talk about might makes right, but that's EXACTLY what's going on. The elite are using the power of money, connections, and control of the very system of government and laws that they have to subjugate and control the majority. It is might makes right, but for some reason so many people refuse to see that for what it is, and instead focus on the majority because the only power the majority has is numbers, and should the majority ever decide it's necessary to use the one thing they have to defend themselves, they're automatically thieves and trash. Meanwhile the elite can do whatever they want, so long as the laws of the land, which they control, support them.

Revolutions are often the result of the few taking too much power and forcing the masses against the wall, where the only option is to fight back. What's with the desire to shift all the blame for such things away from the elite and onto the masses? Is there no limit to what the masses must contend with?

You talk about revolution taking us back to darker ages, and that's true, is why it takes extremes to bring about a revolution, things need to be so bad that the results of a revolution seem tame by comparison or people are simply that desperate to escape the creation of those in power. See there's two ways to go back to worse times, one is to tear everything down, and the other is too allow too much power into the hands of the few creating a state where most suffer while the few subjugate them and gorge on excess. Both are bad in their own way, but damn if you all won't defend the one side while painting the side with the least power and control as the bad guys for wanting change before things become so desperate they are forced to defend themselves.

It's not the masses that have the power, nor is it the masses using might makes right.

a reply to: Puppylove

The elite are using the power of money, connections, and control of the very system of government and laws that they have to subjugate and control the majority.

Yes, some of them are... with the blessings of the masses.

That's where the disconnect seems to come in. Today in America, we have a literal invasion from our borders that these elite claim is simply poor people needing our help, and the resulting sympathy leads to the exact same masses who are being exploited demanding policies that not only allow them to be further exploited, but also allow the objects of their misplaced sympathy to harm them. Today in America, we have someone in government who has reduced the tax burden on the masses, but then those elite have claimed the opposite long enough and hard enough so many of those masses now actually believe that they are more oppressed than before, despite the evidence of their own paychecks.

And in the process, the masses demand their oppressors keep oppressing them by voting for their oppressors... even in some cases physically attacking those who do not.

There is a good possibility that your predictions of a revolution will come true, but if it happens it will because those masses are so clueless that they do not even stop to realize they are their own oppressors. And the elite will sit back in their ivory castles and laugh, because they will be the ones to profit.

You will now try and explain to me why everything I just posted above is wrong. I know this. You will also not even consider the possibility that what I said is true. The brainwashing is complete. When that revolution happens, it will not be the elite who caused it who will suffer; it will be the very masses who revolt that will bear that burden and cheer for themselves all the while.

*sigh* I sometimes wonder why I bother.

TheRedneck

a reply to: TheRedneck

Everything you posted is wrong because you actually think the people have a real voice. We're surrounded by misinformation, and our options are limited, only those with the backing of the elite can even gain a chance to be voted for in any real numbers. You pretend like there's actually a way for the people to work within the system to change it, yet we have evidence of massive corruption in all aspects of our government, only small parts of which we even get a vote, and even there, there's evidence of vote rigging and manipulation. Even when the politician we vote in is voted in, they care more about the needs of the lobbyists that make them rich.

I mean seriously, you tell me how in the hell, with the current system, the misinformation everywhere, the rampant corruption, and massive advantage the rich have over the common man to influence politics in their favor, and the corrupt media trying to pin everyone against each other, and utterly crush any serious attempt by the people to organize that we even have a chance? Especially when the elite have learned how to twist protest messages by inserting fake protesters, and making every group become and appear violent by association with these bought and paid for criminals.

Yes it's ultimately the fault of people as a whole, but now that the elite have the power, now they've manipulated the system in their favor, it all falls on them. They hold all the cards, and they have the ability to decide what will happen in the future, not the masses, we screwed and allowed things to get this way by becoming passive and allowing ourselves to be duped. I do not deny we've done that, but the more I see the more I'm certain the time has come a passed where a difference can be made within the system. Which I'll be honest, terrifies me. I'd rather not live through such times, and hope to have kids in the future and don't want them to live through such times.

Yes the people screwed up, the people allowed themselves to be lured and baited into a corner by predators looking to feast upon them. That was the people's mistake, once cornered, however, and realizing they're trapped, there's two choices, fight for survival, or roll over and accept that you're just a piece of meat to be devoured for the mistake of trusting the wrong people.

Here's how I view society, society first came into being and exists as a means for people to band together and work as one to combat the elements, defend against predators, and take advantage of the varying skills of the group to improve upon and increase the ability for man to survive and improve our quality of life and create a safe environment for our future generations. This is why we even live in groups and have a society in the first place. If society is not serving that purpose it's a failure. This is the basic purpose of society, it is the least any society should provide to all it's members.

This means to me that all children should be provided for and cared for and protected, as well as given all they need to learn to become a contributing member of society as an adult.

This means that once someone has learned to become a contributing member of society, no matter how they contribute the must have shelter, food and medical care, as the whole purpose of society is these very things, without it, calling a society civilized is a sick joke. I don't care if you flip burgers, pick up trash, or run a business, you're contributing to the whole, these things are yours by right simply for being a part of and contributing to society.

This means that as technology improves, and as the ability to improve quality of life increases, what the bare minimum a person in society has should improve, as improving the quality of life of all those in society is a major goal of even forming one.

This also means that once you've become elderly you should be cared for, because it was your hard work and effort that create the world those younger than you now benefit from and should be able to live out the rest of your days with the care, dignity, and respect you've earned and are due.

This also means, which is why I'm neither one hundred percent socialist or capitalist as I believe so far, no government or economic system has figured it out yet and we've got more we need to try to get it right.

That those who do more for society should benefit for their efforts. Quality of life should definitely improve for those who put in more effort or advance society.

A society that does not reward innovation and effort is a stagnant society, and will gain neither reward nor innovation.

However,

A society that does not properly care for the least of it's contributing members, be they future contributors, current contributors, or past contributors, is doomed to fall apart, because a society that doesn't serve the very purpose of society simply cannot last.

This is the problem with capitalism, it doesn't give two #s about the society or people in it, and thus can fail at providing in many cases the basic needs and purpose of society. It also does not care to seek for ways to help people contribute to society no matter their limitations, but instead how best to use others, and screw those who are limited and cannot compete.

This is the problem with socialism, as it fails to properly reward innovation and effort, causing stagnation, screw how much effort you do, or what else you can do to contribute. It also unlike capitalism who turns a blind eye to those who's ability to contribute is limited, tends to just try and give to those who's abilities are limited at the expense of everyone else, which just encourages people to not even try, and actually belittles and gives the handicap no purpose.

Both are horrible failures at performing the role, purpose and function of society.

Everyone can contribute in some way, no matter how small, even if it's a silly as putting stickers on a binder to make it pretty, and no one who can contribute/will contribute/has contributed should be left out.

Being a doctor shouldn't be a job, it should be an honor, rewarded, respected and have an important place in society. People should be proud of being a doctor, and rewarded for their place in society with not just money, but a respectful place within it.

We can do so much more. Not in the current system though, and not with capitalism or socialism, but something else. I don't know what, but something that focuses of what society is, why it exists and what it and every member in it is supposed to provide to itself and each other.

By the way just so you are aware, I'm fully in agreement with you on the border crisis, and I'm fully aware everyone will suffer in a revolution. A revolution is the last thing I want to see. Unfortunately the corruption is so complete I think we're #ed either way. The only question at this point is when, how far are we willing to let things go, will it be too late and just result in a massacre of the masses, and if it occurs, what government will take it's place, and will it be worse or better...

a reply to: Puppylove

I mean seriously, you tell me how in the hell, with the current system, the misinformation everywhere, the rampant corruption, and massive advantage the rich have over the common man to influence politics in their favor, and the corrupt media trying to pin everyone against each other, and utterly crush any serious attempt by the people to organize that we even have a chance? Especially when the elite have learned how to twist protest messages by inserting fake protesters, and making every group become and appear violent by association with these bought and paid for criminals.

How? First by refusing to participate in the lies. We have become a lazy people, too lazy to even check to see if that dude on the TV screen, who we only know by the persona he projects through that TV screen, is lying to us in order to benefit himself.

Second, by spreading the word about the lies we find and waking more people to what's actually going on. That's what we do here on ATS... or at least we try to.

As it stands now, the majority of the people are still listening to the lies... as long as that happens, no revolution can succeed in truth. Those who rise up may win their battle, but that battle will not be against their actual oppressors... it will be against the people who are not listening to the lies. The elite will simply gain even more power.

Here's how I view society, society first came into being and exists as a means for people to band together and work as one to combat the elements, defend against predators, and take advantage of the varying skills of the group to improve upon and increase the ability for man to survive and improve our quality of life and create a safe environment for our future generations.

Yes, it did, and yes, I agree with the concept you put forward. But the reality is that, while humans are social creatures, humans are also individuals. A society must protect itself from those within it to accomplish the functions we support. That is the opposite of what we are doing now.

It wasn't that long ago that I distinctly remember people banding together to do exactly what you claim. What changed? Political correctness and a more powerful government. Suddenly people began to be divided because interacting with others entailed too much risk to oneself. We didn't have a lot of insurance back then; some had auto liability insurance, a few had insurance on a new car, many had home insurance. But insurance was also cheaper, because a claim was rare. The idea of not worrying about having a car accident was unheard of, because people understood that some things could not be fixed with money.

I know a person right now who has a tree threatening their house. They told me outright they were not going to cut it down because if they did and it fell in the wrong direction for any reason, their insurance will not pay; if they leave it alone and it damages their house (which is not really an if but a when), insurance will pay. I have a tree threatening mine... as soon as I can, I plan on felling it myself. It makes no sense to me to wait until it falls because money.

And of course government supports this... those insurance companies are not getting hurt; they are making more money than ever, because they simply raise rates when people make too many claims. So they lobby and the officials protect them, and get the media to talk about the few good things they say while supporting corruption and the people eat it up like a large-mouth bass after a juicy earthworm.

This is the problem with capitalism...

This is the problem with socialism...

Both are horrible failures at performing the role, purpose and function of society.

Yes, you are correct; that is why we do not have pure capitalism nor pure socialism. We have a mixture. The real questions concerning capitalism versus socialism is not a question of which, but rather a question of how much of each.

I happen to believe that some are trying to usher in too much socialism too fast.

The reason is that I have some faith left in people. I remember when the elderly did get cared for... by families and friends. But now we have government programs to do that. Our elderly in some cases now are eating dog food to survive and cannot afford health care under these government programs, while those who would have been caring for them in days of yore now simply get to hand them over to the government and continue on as though nothing happened. The very programs that were put in place to supposedly help people have instead placed a value on their lives... and often a value that is too low to be concerned about.

In the end, we still have the power to change things, but that will take all of us working together. The problem we face so acutely at the moment is not the government or lobbyists, but the divide they have placed between us. If we could simply bridge that divide and return to the days when people cared less about money and more about people, no government could constrain us.

And no bloody revolution that places our children at risk would be needed.

TheRedneck

a reply to: ElectricUniverse


Sounds like a New James Bond Movie Plot there .,......Hmm..

a reply to: TheRedneck

I'd love to be able to bridge that gap, unfortunately I've grown so, so tired of trying. The divide is absurdly strong.

Plus the elite feel too entrenched to stop in any reasonable way.

As a Venezuelan I can only say this...F#*ck socialism, communism and anything in between. And also, dont debate me with what is going on in Venezuela all is very real and worse, i am in contact with my family there and left almost 3 years ago....just appreciate Trump and never go the socialism path just because its "cool" damn you all who support the Cuba regime and communism...Orwell you were so right with your books...

As a Venezuelan I can only say this...F#*ck socialism, communism and anything in between. And also, dont debate me with what is going on in Venezuela all is very real and worse, i am in contact with my family there and left almost 3 years ago....just appreciate Trump and never go the socialism path just because its "cool" damn you all who support the Cuba regime and communism...Orwell you were so right with your books...

a reply to: Puppylove

I'd love to be able to bridge that gap, unfortunately I've grown so, so tired of trying. The divide is absurdly strong.

Plus the elite feel too entrenched to stop in any reasonable way.

True, on both counts.

That's why we had to go unreasonable. It's called Donald J. Trump.

TheRedneck

a reply to: Roraima

As an American... you have my sympathy. May this all resolve with no more misery.

TheRedneck

a reply to: TheRedneck

I'm not one hundred percent certain Trump is not part of the plan. Looks can be deceiving. It would not be the first time the wool has been pulled over our eyes.

BTW as for old people, in my line of work I've run into several who rely on government because they have no one else, all family is dead, and their friends died before them. They'd have nothing in your better times. I've also seen some with very dedicated kids trying to take care of them, but in todays economic times there's only so much they can do as the kids need to work too, and mom has Alzheimers and can't be left home alone. My job is vital, and things were not better before home health aides existed... well some home health aides. It's nice to pretend the old were taken care of, and many didn't fall through the cracks, but that's a rose colored goggled look at the past. Homes for the elderly have existed for a long time, they've been terrible places for a long time, and people have been tossing their parents in there for a long time. I've seen too many people that think they do right by mom and dad, but actually fell way short, and I'm pretty sure that delusion was no less true then.

I'm not 100% anti-Trump, and I'm not 100% pro-Trump, some things have been very questionable, and too much of the narrative surrounding Trump is starting to feel staged and has for awhile. As for the MAGA slogan, it's full of #, the US was never great, I can't think of a single government that's ever existed I'd call great. There were times it was less detestable than others, and I do support our nation. I do recognize that some things were better in other times, but at the same time, some things were much, much worse. That said, no matter how absurd I think MAGA is, I support the right of free expression, and simply see MAGA as absurd. It's not a "symbol of hate" and people that chant MAGA aren't bad. Hell I have some tentative hope Trump is the real thing, but even if he is, at most he has one more term, then back to same old, same old, the elite won't make the same mistakes twice if this was an actually and not staged one.

Even the situation in Venezuela is starting to feel staged. Oh and before anyone get's upset I don't mean all the suffering is not real, it most certainly is. The people staging all this crap are varying degrees of sociopaths and psychopaths, they have no remorse and no morals (Not saying everyone with these conditions are 100% monsters, but these ones are), and will happily create massive suffering if it fits their narrative and gets them what they want.

I'm starting to get paranoid I guess, I have no idea what to believe anymore and no amount of reasonable research will get anyone to the truth, and even if we do find the truth, the muck of disinformation is so damn thick, the chance we'll recognize the truth when we see it is about as likely as winning the lotto. I'm just starting to get seriously disparaged. I'd love to believe Trump is the one, but even if he was, and even if I whole handedly support him, the same system that prevents a singular corrupt individual become defacto president for life has the same effect on preventing the same for good presidents. A good president is a diamond in the rough, even if I believed in him, it changes nothing once his two terms are up, assuming he can even get a second term. It all feels so hopeless. I guess I'm lazy and letting it happen, because mostly I just live my life the best I can for my loved ones, and dedicate myself to my job of caring for the elderly, often spending the measly money I get from my job towards helping them more than my job asks me to. Is the least I can do to make the world at least a little bit better. I know it's not enough, but I work almost seventy hours a week to make ends meet, I'm not sure what else I can give, I'm only human.

a reply to: Puppylove

I'm not one hundred percent certain Trump is not part of the plan. Looks can be deceiving. It would not be the first time the wool has been pulled over our eyes.

Now that's a fair enough statement. I will admit that I try to keep a close eye on Trump. I have yet to see anything legitimate that indicates him being part of the Deep State. Naive? That's a different question. But he seems to be settling in well as of late.

BTW as for old people, in my line of work I've run into several who rely on government because they have no one else

Yes, they do exist, sadly. I would think, however, that having all family dead would be quite rare. What is likely not rare is having no close family still alive. I know one man, whose brain quit developing at age 5 or 6 (he is the literal definition of the words "mentally retarded") in his 70s now. His parents raised him and cared for him until their death; his brother and sister-in-law then took over until his sister-in-law died; for a short time his brother's friend helped out; after his brother got too old to care for him, his niece and her husband took him in. In my day, "family" was a much more inclusive term than it seems to be today.

But, as I said, they do exist. That's why I do not condemn all welfare programs, nor would I want to live in a country that did not have provisions to take care of the elderly. I may think these programs are being abused or need tweaking, but I do not support abolishing them. If I gave that impression, it was not intentional.

As for the MAGA slogan, it's full of #, the US was never great, I can't think of a single government that's ever existed I'd call great. There were times it was less detestable than others, and I do support our nation. I do recognize that some things were better in other times, but at the same time, some things were much, much worse.

Yes, we've been through some trying times in our short history. But I think you misunderstand: when I hear "Make America Great Again," I am not thinking about making the government great again... I am thinking about making the people great again. We have lost much of our competitive edge in the world market because we have become lazy, mediocre, and generally less successful than our forefathers primarily due to reliance on government for all our needs. I want to change that; I want my friends, my family, my community, the citizens of my state, and the citizens of the entire nation to be as great as they can be, just like their ancestors were. After all, our ancestors built the USA into the most powerful nation and robust economy on the planet in a tiny fraction of the time most countries have existed. That is the greatness I envision.

And in that light, yes, I will argue with you: I consider my father great, my grandfather great, my great-grandfather... OK, not going that far with him, lol... my great-great-grandfather great, all the way back to the three cousins who fought in the Revolutionary War (one did not return). They were great people, hardy people, capable people... and certainly not the kind of people who can be challenged by those weak, impotent souls that typically exist today.

Even the situation in Venezuela is starting to feel staged. Oh and before anyone get's upset I don't mean all the suffering is not real, it most certainly is. The people staging all this crap are varying degrees of sociopaths and psychopaths, they have no remorse and no morals (Not saying everyone with these conditions are 100% monsters, but these ones are), and will happily create massive suffering if it fits their narrative and gets them what they want.

That there are those who would use and even encourage human suffering for their own selfish desires, there can be no doubt.

I'm starting to get paranoid I guess, I have no idea what to believe anymore and no amount of reasonable research will get anyone to the truth, and even if we do find the truth, the muck of disinformation is so damn thick, the chance we'll recognize the truth when we see it is about as likely as winning the lotto.

And that is what the elite want... you so confused about who is telling the truth that you give up.

Never give up. It's OK to give out occasionally, but never, ever give up.

TheRedneck