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Why Increased Socialism Leads to Increased Prices

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posted on Mar, 15 2019 @ 03:31 PM
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a reply to: ChaoticOrder

Maduro isn’t refusing international aid. He’s just refusing aid from people who have, in the past, used aid caravans to sneak in weapons. He’s accepting plenty aid from countries other than the us.

And saying the price of oil collapsed is like saying Iraq fell into dissolution. Yes, it happened, and there was an intentional will behind it causing it to happen.

I’m not saying maduro is great, but there are places in South America, Africa, etc that were and are WAY worse off than Venezuela. How come I don’t see us threatening to march troops there?

As far as China, you can paint it however you want, China is surpassing everyone else at a time where most of the rest of the world is economically falling off a cliff following Friedman economics and the neoliberal model.

And if you’re saying that China’s current market system is not socialism or communism, then may as well abandon the whole socialism vs capital argument as nobody, EVER, means abandoning markets or profit when they say they support socialist ideas. That’s just the corner they’re painted into.




posted on Mar, 15 2019 @ 05:45 PM
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a reply to: pexx421


Maduro isn’t refusing international aid. He’s just refusing aid from people who have, in the past, used aid caravans to sneak in weapons. He’s accepting plenty aid from countries other than the us.

Care to provide any sources? This BBC article says that supplies from the United States, Brazil and Colombia were turned away. It seems the only aid they accepted was from Russia, a supporter of the Maduro regime. I'm just trying to grasp why you support a clearly corrupt and ineffective leader, it seems to me you're willing to let countless people suffer in the name of an ideology which is fundamentally flawed.


And saying the price of oil collapsed is like saying Iraq fell into dissolution.

I was hesitant to use the word collapsed, the point is there was a very large drop in the price of oil and that demonstrably caused a large drop in revenue for the Venezuelan government, leaving them unable to pay for bloated social spending budget, which led to hyper-inflation through devaluation/debasement of the currency. And there is a sort of feedback loop which occurs when a currency collapses, it also loses value when the world loses faith in the currency and the government.


I’m not saying maduro is great, but there are places in South America, Africa, etc that were and are WAY worse off than Venezuela. How come I don’t see us threatening to march troops there?

Which places in South America or Africa have suffered from such a rapid and extended decline in living standards or such high levels of inflation in modern times? I don't doubt it has happened to other counties but I'd like some examples for a comparison. Also the difference here is that Maduro appears to be quite corrupt and unwilling to give up power under any circumstances, that is why the rest of the world is so concerned. But I still agree other nations should not intervene and let Venezuela sort it out.


President Maduro acknowledged PSUV defeat, but attributed the opposition's victory to an intensification of an economic war. Despite this, Maduro said "I will stop by hook or by crook the opposition coming to power, whatever the costs, in any way".[170] In the following months, Maduro fulfilled his promise of preventing the democratically- and constitutionally-elected National Assembly from legislating. The first steps taken by PSUV and government were the substitution of the entire Supreme Court a day after the Parliamentary Elections[171] contrary to the Constitution of Venezuela, acclaimed as a fraud by the majority of the Venezuelan and international press.[172][173][174][175] The Financial Times described the function of the Supreme Court in Venezuela as "rubber stamping executive whims and vetoing legislation".[176] The PSUV government used this violation to suspend several elected opponents,[177] ignoring again the Constitution of Venezuela. Maduro said that "the Amnesty law (approved by the Parliament) will not be executed" and asked the Supreme Court to declare it unconstitutional before the law was known.[178]

Venezuela



As far as China, you can paint it however you want, China is surpassing everyone else at a time where most of the rest of the world is economically falling off a cliff following Friedman economics and the neoliberal model.

Ok well lets look at the facts. China is ranked #86 on the list of countries by Human Development Index whereas Switzerland is #2, Hong Kong is #7, and the U.S. is #13. China is ranked #78 on the list of countries by GDP per capita whereas Switzerland is #9, Hong Kong is #10, and the U.S. is #11. Despite China having the 2nd largest GDP only behind the U.S., they also have a massive population which means a small GDP per capita and a low average wage compared to most nations. The only redeeming factor of their economy is the mass production results in low prices, but even accounting for that China ranks rather low in terms of average income per capita and is considered a middle income country.


And if you’re saying that China’s current market system is not socialism or communism, then may as well abandon the whole socialism vs capital argument

For the most part I would define it as a communist system of government, but it's what I would call industrial communism or techno-communism. Communist regimes often realize they need a source of funding so they promote industrialization and seize control over production. It's the same principle Mao pushed during The Great Leap Forward when millions of people died, Mao Zedong argued "that the best way to finance industrialization was for the government to take control of agriculture, thereby establishing a monopoly over grain distribution and supply". It didn't work so well back then obviously, and China did learn a lesson from it, which is why they now have this weird hybrid of communism and capitalism. They allowed some privatization, embraced free market trade, and are now even moving away from manufacturing to become a market-based economy.


Since China's transition to a market-based economy through privatisation and deregulation,[15][16] the country has seen its ranking increase from ninth in 1978 to second to only the United States in 2016 as economic growth accelerated and its share of global nominal GDP surged from 2% in 1980 to 15% in 2016.[14][17]

List of countries by GDP

edit on 15/3/2019 by ChaoticOrder because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 15 2019 @ 05:58 PM
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originally posted by: ChaoticOrder
a reply to: pexx421


Maduro isn’t refusing international aid. He’s just refusing aid from people who have, in the past, used aid caravans to sneak in weapons. He’s accepting plenty aid from countries other than the us.

Care to provide any sources? This BBC article says that supplies from the United States, Brazil and Colombia were turned away. It seems the only aid they accepted was from Russia, a supporter of the Maduro regime. I'm just trying to grasp why you support a clearly corrupt and ineffective leader, it seems to me you're willing to let countless people suffer in the name of an ideology which is fundamentally flawed.

Sure. Here.
www.google.com...

They’re accepting aid from China, Russia, Cuba, turkey, Palestine.
And I’m not willing to let them suffer due to an ideology. I just know how almost every single nation the us tries regime change on winds up. I don’t want to see THAT happen to the Venezuelan people.


And saying the price of oil collapsed is like saying Iraq fell into dissolution.

I was hesitant to use the word collapsed, the point is there was a very large drop in the price of oil and that demonstrably caused a large drop in revenue for the Venezuelan government, leaving them unable to pay for bloated social spending budget, which led to hyper-inflation through devaluation/debasement of the currency. And there is a sort of feedback loop which occurs when a currency collapses, it also loses value when the world loses faith in the currency and the government.


I’m not saying maduro is great, but there are places in South America, Africa, etc that were and are WAY worse off than Venezuela. How come I don’t see us threatening to march troops there?

Which places in South America or Africa have suffered from such a rapid and extended decline in living standards or such high levels of inflation in modern times? I don't doubt it has happened to other counties but I'd like some examples for a comparison. Also the difference here is that Maduro appears to be quite corrupt and unwilling to give up power under any circumstances, that is why the rest of the world is so concerned. But I still agree other nations should not intervene and let Venezuela sort it out.

I dunno. Greece? Rwanda? Djibouti? How is Columbia doing? Honduras? Yemen?


President Maduro acknowledged PSUV defeat, but attributed the opposition's victory to an intensification of an economic war. Despite this, Maduro said "I will stop by hook or by crook the opposition coming to power, whatever the costs, in any way".[170] In the following months, Maduro fulfilled his promise of preventing the democratically- and constitutionally-elected National Assembly from legislating. The first steps taken by PSUV and government were the substitution of the entire Supreme Court a day after the Parliamentary Elections[171] contrary to the Constitution of Venezuela, acclaimed as a fraud by the majority of the Venezuelan and international press.[172][173][174][175] The Financial Times described the function of the Supreme Court in Venezuela as "rubber stamping executive whims and vetoing legislation".[176] The PSUV government used this violation to suspend several elected opponents,[177] ignoring again the Constitution of Venezuela. Maduro said that "the Amnesty law (approved by the Parliament) will not be executed" and asked the Supreme Court to declare it unconstitutional before the law was known.[178]

Venezuela



As far as China, you can paint it however you want, China is surpassing everyone else at a time where most of the rest of the world is economically falling off a cliff following Friedman economics and the neoliberal model.

Ok well lets look at the facts. China is rated #86 on the list of countries by Human Development Index whereas Switzerland is #2, Hong Kong is #7, and the U.S. is #13. China is rated #78 on the list of countries by GDP per capita whereas Switzerland is #9, Hong Kong is #10, and the U.S. is #11. Despite China having the 2nd largest GDP only behind the U.S., they also have a massive population which means a small GDP per capita and a low average wage compared to most nations. The only redeeming factor of their economy is the mass production results in low prices, but even accounting for that it ranks rather low in terms of average income per capita and is considered a middle income country.

That is all true. What I was pointing out, however, is that during the last decade the median per capital income in China has increased by, I think, 5x. It’s the most rapid growth and improvement of any nation in the world, the largest increase in economic growth, I believe, in history. All while everyone else is stagnating or contracting.


And if you’re saying that China’s current market system is not socialism or communism, then may as well abandon the whole socialism vs capital argument

For the most part I would define it as a communist system of government, but it's what I would call industrial communism or techno-communism. Communist regimes often realize they need a source of funding so they promote industrialization and seize control over production. It's the same principle Mao pushed during The Great Leap Forward when millions of people died, Mao Zedong argued "that the best way to finance industrialization was for the government to take control of agriculture, thereby establishing a monopoly over grain distribution and supply". It didn't work so well back then obviously, and China did learn a lesson from it, which is why they now have this weird hybrid of communism and capitalism. They allowed some privatization, embraced free market trade, and are now even moving away from manufacturing to become a market-based economy.


Since China's transition to a market-based economy through privatisation and deregulation,[15][16] the country has seen its ranking increase from ninth in 1978 to second to only the United States in 2016 as economic growth accelerated and its share of global nominal GDP surged from 2% in 1980 to 15% in 2016.[14][17]

List of countries by GDP

edit on 15-3-2019 by pexx421 because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 15 2019 @ 07:19 PM
link   

originally posted by: pexx421
Sure. Here.

An article in English would be preferable, but that doesn't say anything about Venezuela using Google translate.


I just know how almost every single nation the us tries regime change on winds up. I don’t want to see THAT happen to the Venezuelan people.

Lol I don't think it could get much worse at this point honestly, Venezuela now appears to have such high inflation it has some of the worlds highest prices and extreme levels of poverty. By keeping Maduro in power I don't see a future where that changes any time soon. And once again this is a very different situation to Libya and Syria, I don't see how the U.S. trying to force a regime change, although it's clear many nations are concerned about the crisis and want a change for valid reasons.


I dunno. Greece? Rwanda? Djibouti? How is Columbia doing? Honduras? Yemen?

I wasn't aware Greece or Yemen were in South America or Africa but lets take a look anyway. Yemen looks like the best comparison because it appears GDP has stopped growing or even declined since the civil war, essentially a fight over leadership, not unlike the situation in Venezuela. However even Yemen hasn't seen inflation levels anything close to Venezuela, nor has the GDP dropped so dramatically. Greece is now experiencing GDP growth after a long decline, Rwanda has GDP growth, Columbia has GDP growth, even Honduras has consistent GDP growth and a stable currency despite high levels of poverty.


The Greek economy is classified as advanced[171][172][173][174][175] and high-income.[176][174] Greece is a developed country with a high standard of living and a high ranking in the Human Development Index.[177][178][179]

Greece achieved a real GDP growth rate of 0.7% in 2014—after 6 years of economic decline—but contracted by 0.4% in 2015 and by 0.2% in 2016.[50][51][52] The country returned to modest growth of 1.5% in 2017 and 1.9% in 2018.[50][6]

Greece
Economy of Greece



Colombia is Latin America's fourth largest and Central America's second largest economy measured by gross domestic product.[1]

Colombia over the last decade has experienced a historic economic boom. In 1990, Colombia was Latin America's 5th Largest economy and had a GDP per capita of only US$1,500, by 2015 it became the 4th largest in Latin America, and the world's 31st largest.[1] As of 2015 the GDP (PPP) per capita has increased to over US$14,000, and GDP (PPP) increased from US$120 billion in 1990 to nearly US$700 billion.[1] Poverty levels were as high as 65% in 1990, but decreased to under 24% by 2015.[3]

Colombia
Economy of Colombia



Djibouti has experienced stable economic growth in recent years as a result of achievements in macroeconomic adjustment efforts.

Djibouti's gross domestic product expanded by an average of more than 6 percent per year, from US$341 million in 1985 to US$1.5 billion in 2015.

Since the Djiboutian franc is pegged to the U.S. dollar, it is generally stable and inflation is not a problem. This has contributed to the growing interest in investment in the country.[75][78][79]

Djibouti
Economy of Djibouti



That is all true. What I was pointing out, however, is that during the last decade the median per capital income in China has increased by, I think, 5x. It’s the most rapid growth and improvement of any nation in the world, the largest increase in economic growth, I believe, in history. All while everyone else is stagnating or contracting.

Well it's easier to rise when you're not very high to begin with. Consider the fact that even though they have raised so many people out of poverty, they still aren't even in the top 50 when ranked by median income per capita.
edit on 15/3/2019 by ChaoticOrder because: (no reason given)




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