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US Troop build up in Panama and Columbia

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posted on Mar, 3 2019 @ 02:26 PM
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Everywhere I go I see the same discussion on this topic. USA bad, Russia good, oil, TPTB, China good ,It’s all about money......:etc

Very rarely is anybody sincerely concerned about the citizens .

No one seems to remember we had these exact same discussions in 2011-12 over the exact same motives . Concerning a country in peaceful protest that didn’t want to topple the government they just wanted reform .

Then when we were all busy discussing the Geo political ramifications and the East versus West dogma . The artillery started thundering and the bombs started dropping .

Do you guys remember the name of that country ?

Of course you do it was called Syria.

The citizenry of Venezuela should be the only topic at this point. The petty bull crap can come later .




posted on Mar, 3 2019 @ 03:35 PM
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a reply to: Fallingdown

That is kind of a slippery slope, no? The atrocities that can be committed in the name of 'citizens' could be a lot worse than the original crappy environment itself. How many opportunities of government invasion are created when we tell ourselves it is morally right to spread our democracy, uninvited to the rest of the world?

What if I thought that women being forced to accept islam is inhumane, you would fully support me invading every country that has sharia low to eradicate that evil? What if I find that catholic priests abusing minors to be evil, will you support me in invading the vatican to eradicate that evil?

Why do we get to force our morals on the rest of the world? Maybe if we didn't PRETEND to be concerned about the citizens, the illegal invasion of syria wouldn't have ever happened.

I think that instead, we need to remove the bull# excuses our government uses to invade other sovereign countries. I wonder, in the countries that we did invade or force regime changes on, how their citizens are doing now?



posted on Mar, 3 2019 @ 04:03 PM
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a reply to: Fallingdown

It isn't about the citizens though. It is about oil and who controls it. That is the only reason the US government even cares.



posted on Mar, 3 2019 @ 04:11 PM
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a reply to: Grimpachi

I agree If it was about the people they would be invading many other countries where it is much worse for the normal folk.




posted on Mar, 3 2019 @ 04:15 PM
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a reply to: ClovenSky

I never thought we should insert ourselves. If anybody tries to intervene I’m willing to bet it will be Brazil and other South American countries. The US, Russia and China should get behind it with both logistically and politically .

I agree intervention is a slippery slope but it succeeds sometimes . On the other hand authoritarians oppressing their citizenry is a well trodden path. And no good has ever come of it .

If the current protest follow the same pattern as the events in Syria. Just think of all the damage five years of war could do to South and Central America .

Venezuela probably won’t end up like Syria. But with Maduro‘s grasp on the military it easily could .


For me the biggest lesson the world could learn from the situation. Is that we might not be discussing this if the Venezuelan people hadn’t given up their guns .



posted on Mar, 3 2019 @ 04:18 PM
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Venezuela will become the new Syria



posted on Mar, 3 2019 @ 04:25 PM
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a reply to: Grimpachi

I grant you that it’s a factor. But it’s not the only factor. If it was we would’ve been far more aggressive when Vladimir Putin seized Crimea and kept for himself all the oil/gas reserves in the black sea and the new found deposit in the sea of Azon.

To date that is the only true war for oil.

He didn’t take guardianship of it to redistribute he kept it.

But let’s say you’re right and oil is the only reason we care.

Can you offer a solution ?



posted on Mar, 3 2019 @ 04:36 PM
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a reply to: Fallingdown

Again, how are you so sure that the entire ukrainian situation wasn't our doing as well? There are some fun conspiracy theories out there of how we actually pulled it off.

Didn't crimea hold an election and 90+ of the population voted for integration with 80+ voter turnout.

How do you separate the truth from the lies? Maybe if we simply kept our noses out of it, that decision would never be needed. If we remove ourselves off of the global chess board of war and invasion, they could no longer use us and use the blood of our citizens to further their goals.



posted on Mar, 3 2019 @ 04:47 PM
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Everyone claiming it is just about the oil must have missed the part where the Cubans, Chinese, and Russians are gaining a foot hold in South America. You kill the snake before it grows to a Godzilla size.

China and Russia have invested heavily in Venezuela to the tune of several billion dollars a piece and have told the states to butt out. Cuba is supply soldiers and cadre to the military. youtu.be...


Russia youtu.be...



posted on Mar, 3 2019 @ 05:11 PM
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a reply to: ClovenSky

All I can do is reply but with logic .

Why would we be in on it with Russia then level sanctions that cripples their economy? That doesn’t add up .

The referendum in Crimea passed with 96% of the vote . The number tells you it was bogus . I’ve need to lower the numbers to make my point . If you put 1000 people in a room do you believe 960 of them will form a consensus leaving 40 outside the loop ? It’s just silly . That’s the reason only seven countries in the entire world have recognized the annexation .

On Venezuela I don’t think for a second the motivation is oil in Venezuela . The motivation is strategic importance. As an example I’ll use China’s antics in the south Chinese sea and the creation/militarization of islands . Would the world and most importantly the US be a better place if China gets a foothold in Venezuela then Panama and militarizes the Panama canal?

I would like to see us withdraw from world affairs. But then we would be the nice guys and you know what happens the nice guys .


I’m just not comfortable talking about motives and playing politics like we did in Syria then watching 250,000 people die .


It’s a tough choice but somebody needs to make one .


I don’t have a solution for Venezuela no one does . But if Brazil, Colombia, Ecuador and Peru come up with a solution. I think the entire world should back their play .



posted on Mar, 3 2019 @ 05:54 PM
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a reply to: Fallingdown


On Venezuela I don’t think for a second the motivation is oil in Venezuela . The motivation is strategic importance. As an example I’ll use China’s antics in the south Chinese sea and the creation/militarization of islands . Would the world and most importantly the US be a better place if China gets a foothold in Venezuela then Panama and militarizes the Panama canal?

Now that is a very interesting observation.

China is in a poor position technologically with their military. Technology requires energy and energy requires oil. China has little oil. They can't transport oil across the Himalayan Range, and to come around by sea from the Persian Gulf requires passage through Indonesia. In a wartime environment, that passage could be easily cut off. I have been expecting Chinese involvement in Myanmar to get a pipeline to the Indian Ocean there, but it hasn't happened.

Russia is allying with China because China is a perfect customer for their oil and Russia is a perfect supplier for China. But Russian oil facilities are limited, and China's potential growth is seemingly not. That's the real strategic importance of Venezuela. Venezuela has oil, and if China could secure access through the Panama Canal, they would have an open shipping line to the Chinese mainland.

I'm just not sure how they expect to get the Panama Canal... last I heard we had it heavily fortified, and anyway China does not want to give up the US market. Maybe that info is out of date?


I would like to see us withdraw from world affairs. But then we would be the nice guys and you know what happens the nice guys .

I’m just not comfortable talking about motives and playing politics like we did in Syria then watching 250,000 people die

No argument there.

TheRedneck



posted on Mar, 3 2019 @ 06:04 PM
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a reply to: AtlasHawk


If the robotic American foreign policy does what it always does, and tries to place a right wing puppet in this country. I can see a completely different outcome , in the jungle all the high tech stuff will not work, and every helicopter and napalm jet will have a stinger looking for them. If I was an American marine, acting as a rich mans stooge, I hope that the pay is worth it. because all they will leave behind is chaos as usual. Remember this Theatre of war wasn't chosen , it was designed by Americas enemies.



posted on Mar, 3 2019 @ 06:32 PM
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a reply to: TheRedneck

Currently 90% of China’s oil comes through the straits of Malacca and the navy carriers could close that off while staying out of range China’s carrier killing ballistic missiles .

But I backed in to your insight on China securing oil reserves before possibly moving on Central America. Thanks for that idea it makes perfect sense.

I pondered a Chinese Russian alliance. But I don’t think it would stand if there was a war. Russia and China Clashed on the border in 1969 and the issue wasn’t resolved until 1991. Plus China could also be eyeing the resources in Siberia Iron, oil, gas basically you name it just about everything is there and mostly untouched .

I know both my points are out of the Tom Clancy novel but hey that guy was scary smart . Lol

I think Russia would be more afraid of china turning on them. The logistics of maintaining a large army away from the Chinese homeland are still a decade or so away. Their navy just isn’t up to the task yet but it’s getting there . In my opinion military wise Russia would be the low hanging fruit .

Not to mention that if china ever decides to use military force for expansion. India Japan and just about everyone else in Asia would instantly be on our side.



posted on Mar, 3 2019 @ 07:01 PM
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a reply to: wdkirk

I only remembered this post now.

Although Venezuela is only 11th on oil production, it's the 1st on oil reserves, with more than Saudi Arabia.
edit on 3/3/2019 by ArMaP because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 3 2019 @ 08:33 PM
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a reply to: Fallingdown


I pondered a Chinese Russian alliance. But I don’t think it would stand if there was a war.

Their alliance is purely economic, but it is also mutually beneficial. One thing that could throw a monkey wrench into it would be if Russia completes the pipelines under construction through the Middle East (Iran/Iraq/Syria... ring a bell?). That would free them from so much economic dependence on China, and is why Russia is playing the world stage the way they are.


Not to mention that if china ever decides to use military force for expansion. India Japan and just about everyone else in Asia would instantly be on our side.

Yes, they would... but I don't think all of them together would amass an army the size of China's. Now add in that China manufactures most of our military equipment, and you have a massive, heavily armed fighting force that would be difficult to defeat even should they take on the rest of the planet.

I remember some years back hearing a report that if one could line up China's army into four columns and march them double-time into the sea, the line would never end. That's a lot of Chinese!

TheRedneck



posted on Mar, 3 2019 @ 10:38 PM
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a reply to: TheRedneck

China has been looking at building a canal through Nicaragua for years.



posted on Mar, 3 2019 @ 10:51 PM
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a reply to: TheRedneck

I hope so but I fear that they are joined at the hip with the possible exception of hostilities breaking out . Russia’s economy is tiny by Western standards. Basically they’re just a gas station . On the good side for them I read somewhere that Russia and China are starting a second pipeline for oil. Yet any money Russia is taking him from China they’re shelling back out because of their lack of a manufacturing base .

But on the bad side even though they would gain with the pipeline in the Middle East. They are losing elsewhere else. When the mess in the Ukraine started. The Federal government had only approved three liquefied natural gas export facilities in the last 10 years because of environmental regulations . After the annexation of Crimea by the gangster ( I loathe Putin ) seven were fast tracked with five now online last that I checked . Strategically I assume the goal is to cut Europe’s dependence on Russian natural gas .

With our exploding oil economy any move Russia is doing to expand their economy is being stifled.

There’s two reasons I don’t fear the size of the Chinese army .

In the modern day battlefield you need to field a highly trained well supplied balanced cohesive unit . The time it takes to properly train isn’t like it was in the old days . You can’t just give them eight weeks of basic training give them a rifle and put them on the line . Couple that with the tooth the tail ratio at around 75% and God knows what percentage of the population building weapons of war . Armies can only get so big .

The other reason is that if china reverts back to Korean war tactics of human waves. India is the counter for their population .

With the exception of asymmetric warfare. The military that win’s the day will of course need technology but also training and logistics . A military that achieves that package can destroy forces 10 times their size who haven’t. ( ask Israel )

China might be able to pull that off operating from their homeland. But they are decades away from directly being a threat to the western hemisphere.


On the other hand it’s been around 75 years since the last big war. We are overdue .


As an afterthought this article pretty much echoes my position of the last few years on the Russian military. You might like it it’s an interesting read .


www.strategypage.com...
edit on 3-3-2019 by Fallingdown because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 4 2019 @ 03:28 AM
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a reply to: Fallingdown

On Russia:

The comparison to China's gas station is pretty apt. We are indeed trying desperately to keep Russian fuel out of Europe. That actually is one of the reasons I tend to laugh at anyone who accuses our President of conspiring with Putin; he's done more by opening up our pipelines to stifle Russia than any President in memory. Russia can't profit as much off of their oil and gas because we are flooding the market along with Saudi Arabia. There's a lot of history between us and the Saudis, to much to go into here, but the oil is why we are such good friends.

Ironically, it was this downward pressure on oil prices that caused the Venezuelan collapse as well. Venezuela was heavily invested in oil infrastructure and when the prices dropped and stayed low, all those socialist programs they had implemented drained them dry financially.

As much profit as Russia can afford to spare is going toward infrastructure to produce more oil and gas for export. That's really all they have left, because as you say, their economy is shot. American businessmen pulled the same trick on them when the USSR dissolved that the carpetbaggers pulled on us back in the 1860s.They came in with all kinds of promises, took what they could, and left.

I have mixed feelings about Putin. He has good cause to dislike the USA, but I have also known a few Russians from my University days. One in particular felt like you do, and that holds a lot of weight for me. He lived it over there. But then again, one of my classmates was also a Russian national, and she had no problem with him. I'll go along with he's not someone we want to depend on.

On China:

China is now where Japan was 20-30 years ago. They are developing their own technological base by copying what we create. As they get familiar with the technology, they begin to produce more and more of their own technology. There's no way to know what military tech stockpiles they already have but are keeping quiet about. The Chinese think in terms of generations where we think in terms of 5 years or less. They also have a highly developed sense of honor that makes the population quite controllable. They can amass an army much easier than most countries due to these two things.

India will not make a lot of difference. Yes, they have an appreciable population, but they are also situated next to the Middle East. Barring the unforeseen, any action China takes will bring Russia along for the ride, because Russia desperately needs China. Where Russia goes, so goes Iran. Those two have hatred for the US, with good reason but still hatred for the US, in common. Russia wants to take our place as the world's economic superpower using their oil, and Iran just wants us dead. Where Iran goes, several other loosely-allied countries will go as well, and that will likely include Pakistan... who has nukes. As a matter of fact, I believe there's some hostilities between Pakistan and India right now.

There's your next "axis of evil." Russian technology and oil, combined with Chinese production and manpower, and Iran filling in from the flank with their own appreciable army and allies.

TheRedneck



posted on Mar, 4 2019 @ 03:45 AM
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originally posted by: scraedtosleep
a reply to: watchitburn




BS There's no good reason for American troops to be in Venezuela. Sanctions, blockades even...fine. But it's their country, they need to throw out the tyrannical socialists themselves. Not our problem.


This. ^^

With that pull out (kinda) in syria and the deals being done with china I was really leaning toward voting for trump in 2020.

If we go to war in venezuela then I am 100% voting for whoever the dem nominee is , no mater who they are. Just as a protest vote.


Democrats on whole, seem even more Gung Ho on using Military force lately. Look at Syria and North Korea for examples. That won't be a protest vote of yours, it will be a vote for military intervention.



posted on Mar, 4 2019 @ 04:28 AM
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it was stated on the rt ticker that russia will counter any intervention by the us. lavrov apparently.

2nd
f.



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