Issuing a challenge to conservative's

so far the only thing I've learned here because none of you have actually made an argument which is kinda funny is that you are willing to totally ignore the truth even though I refute a common platitude

which again was repeat later on in the thread and starred several times

that tells me all I need to know... obvious verifiable truth is less important than your rhetoric

got it

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: jjkenobi

If you are working full-time at minimum wage and the bread earner, you shouldn't be at minimum wage for long if you are any good as a worker. Even when I worked minimum wage in high school, I never stayed at strict minimum wage for long because I was good at what I did.

Yeah but you shouldn't have to work hard to earn a higher living. You should only have to put in about 10% work and make the big bucks, and 10% is pushing it. We're dealing with Millennials here, they should be handed top dollar jobs without having to work hard for them. After all, they deserve it, their mommies said so.

a reply to: LSU2018

Minimum wage jobs were designed for high school and college kids that still live at home.

ok, since you're so smart... explain to me why you said this, when FDR said this...

The law I have just signed was passed to put people back to work, to let them buy more of the products of farms and factories and start our business at a living rate again.

In my Inaugural I laid down the simple proposition that nobody is going to starve in this country. It seems to me to be equally plain that no business which depends for existence on paying less than living wages to its workers has any right to continue in this country.

you can't even face reality can you? are you blatantly lying or willfully ignorant?

a reply to: toysforadults

Minimum wage is nothing more than closing a loop in the debt cycle.

- Take out loans from creditors like China
- print money and drive inflation, devaluing the labor of Americans
- increase minimum wage to offset some of the inflation (but not all)
- reap taxes on higher wages
- repay loan with devalued currency


Its all horsecrap. And we argue over the scraps from said horsecrap.

originally posted by: trustmeimdoctor
What the hell is this?

i think its a shouting match

originally posted by: bigfatfurrytexan
a reply to: toysforadults

Minimum wage is nothing more than closing a loop in the debt cycle.

- Take out loans from creditors like China
- print money and drive inflation, devaluing the labor of Americans
- increase minimum wage to offset some of the inflation (but not all)
- reap taxes on higher wages
- repay loan with devalued currency


Its all horsecrap. And we argue over the scraps from said horsecrap.

I actually totally agree with you on what the real problem is but I just want to see someone back their argument with facts which obviously the majority cannot.

I have my hands wholly around how the economy works I've been studying it it for years and I mean studying it more than I study for my network engineering degree.

a reply to: toysforadults

Please!

You have no idea the circumstances some of us lived with when we were just starting out. Some of us made ends meet on part-time minimum wage added to full-time minimum wage. We lived in a craphole apartment that had sewer backing up into the bathroom sink drain and no working kitchen sink drain, so we carted our dish water out to the curb to dump. The only drain that consistently worked was the shower drain.

You know how you budget for that? You pay your bills, and then you divide everything else out day by day. So you might only have about $12 to $15 for the whole day for everything from gas to all your food for that day. But that's how we lived for a period of three years.

The point is that it was temporary. It did not last. We moved out of those circumstances because they did stay our reality. Almost everyone I know has lived the same reality. Start out bad, move up.

originally posted by: odzeandennz

originally posted by: trustmeimdoctor
What the hell is this?

i think its a shouting match

that's how people who can't back their arguments with research and data handle debate

all I'm asking for is data and look at the temper tantrums

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: toysforadults

Please!

You have no idea the circumstances some of us lived with when we were just starting out. Some of us made ends meet on part-time minimum wage added to full-time minimum wage. We lived in a craphole apartment that had sewer backing up into the bathroom sink drain and no working kitchen sink drain, so we carted our dish water out to the curb to dump. The only drain that consistently worked was the shower drain.

You know how you budget for that? You pay your bills, and then you divide everything else out day by day. So you might only have about $12 to $15 for the whole day for everything from gas to all your food for that day. But that's how we lived for a period of three years.

The point is that it was temporary. It did not last. We moved out of those circumstances because they did stay our reality.

what are you even talking about can you quote me please?

you are obviously building a strawman, I ask for data to see the truth and you have a temper tantrum...

why is it so hard for you to present data???? have you ever actually done any research into the facts of your position????

this is hilarious watching you guys scramble/ create strawman and have temper tantrums

I didn't even take a position on minimum wage in my op all I did was ask you to give me a data backed analysis on the issue...

I didn't say weather or not I was for or against it

god this is sooooooo eeeassssyyyyyyyyyy

Don't feed the troll...It's bad economics!

originally posted by: Malak777

originally posted by: LSU2018
a reply to: toysforadults

Why can't you just live within your means? Minimum wage jobs were designed for high school and college kids that still live at home. Your argument is as lazy as the people who think a job will come to them someday so they sit and wait for it because they're too lazy to go find one. Then when they finally get a job, they cry about what they're making.

No, they were not designed for any other reason than hiring labour as cheap as you could. There are many millions of adults having to live their lives on the minimum wage. I know of many in the UK. They are not losers. They are hard working people doing vital jobs in the economy and society. Is that how lowly you look down on these people? They do this because there is no choice as the market has totally capitalized on the minimum wage and zero contract hours. It suits buiness, but makes poverty out of millions of people, the usual victims of the usual monsters.

Globalisation has been a monster. It make some rich, but most poor. Its days are numbered.

You'll have to excuse me. I'm referring to Americans. I had a minimum wage job in high school and college and stayed at home until I got a job making good money in the oilfield. I never struggled and was always able to buy my GF nice things for birthday and holidays, take her out, go shopping, eat out at restaurants, and keep my truck fueled up. The only time I ever struggled was when I tried to live beyond my means.

WhyTF would I look down at anyone holding a job? Don't come in here and try to start an argument with me for making sense. I don't know how things operate in the UK but I can assure you that if minimum wage is raised here, the cost of everything will rise and the people making minimum wage will again be right back in the same boat they started in and they'll pull most of us middle class workers down with them. If minimum wage goes up by $5.00, I won't get a $5.00 raise. I worked hard to get where I'm at. I've been at the bottom and worked my way up. It sucks but you feel more accomplished with every raise you get and you'll never find a job that pays minimum wage to you forever.

a reply to: Knapperdude

how is asking for information trolling?

a reply to: ketsuko

If you are working full-time at minimum wage and the bread earner, you shouldn't be at minimum wage for long if you are any good as a worker.

That's cause flippin burgers,baggin groceries, and cleaning toilets are career choices now.

a reply to: toysforadults

I've looked at yours as have several others here. Yours presents facts but not in a way that shows the whole truth.

You are big on statistical analysis for example, but one thing I learned first and foremost in media statistics is that you can make a number say just about anything you want if you understand how you arrive at that number. It's like saying cops shoot more black men. OK. Looks bad until you delve into numbers deeper. Blacks also commit more crimes than other demographics and are thus far more likely to have police interactions putting them at higher risk for negative police interactions like being shot.

Simply pulling isolated numbers out of the whole doesn't do much except present a narrow picture. For example, you showed that housing was more expensive and so were certain other expenses the other day, but did you also show that household income has also risen to go with it? And that increase was after adjusting for inflation meaning people are actually better off.

originally posted by: toysforadults
a reply to: LSU2018

you are obviously wrong did you not read what FDR actually wrote himself in the OP?

how can you blatantly lie like that?

Things have changed a lot since the 1930's. What do you think the purpose of minimum wage is?

Nothing I said is a lie. If businesses didn't put a 500% markup on their items then we wouldn't be having this conversation. MW pay raises will only lead to more markups and MW earners will still be in the poverty boat along with millions of those who earned higher wages after starting at the bottom. Is that what you want?

a reply to: ketsuko

I don't know who you are having a conversation with but whatever you keep saying has nothing to do with what I said

I would prefer it if you quote me for context in the next post that has nothing to do with anything I've said.. feel free to offer some information and compare so that someone can actually learn something that isn't just made up rhetoric that sounds good

I mean if minimum wage is bad and we've had one since 1938 I'm sure there are thousands of use case examples you can show us to prove it and vice versa

a reply to: LSU2018

Things have changed a lot since the 1930's. What do you think the purpose of minimum wage is?

I don't have to think about it I just read what the people who create the legislation wrote and said about it and I can see clearly what it was meant to be.

It's really obvious.

I didn't say weather I agreed with it or not I just refute that 1 popular talking point. You just decided I agreed with it. Oh well...

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: LSU2018

When it comes to gas, you're looking less at the markup and more at the taxes there. So that's government markup more than anything else.

As far as hamburger and other food items, sometimes, if you learn how to make your own potato chips, you can avoid the manufacturing markup, but that involves learning to do your own cooking. It's time consuming even though the end result is healthier. As far as hamburger, beef is expensive. There's no way around that. So you learn how to eat within your means which means you maybe don't eat beef but eat more chicken and pork.

Eating can be done pretty economically though.

Those are just examples. Beef is expensive but it doesn't cost that much to process and make. I know markup is necessary, but the markup we're looking at today is ridiculous. For instance, McDonald's buys everything in bulk. The bun probably costs around 5¢, the three pickle slices less than a penny, the mustard and ketchup less than a penny, the portion of frozen fries you get, probably around 5¢, and the meat patty about 10¢. So really less than a quarter all together and you're gonna pay them $7.00.

My point is that if they're required to raise minimum wage, the cost you'll be paying for that cheap hamburger is now going to go up by $3.00 or more. In reality, we shouldn't be paying any more than $3.50 for a combo. In other words, markup is the issue, not pay. Pay comes up, prices go up. Prices go down, value of the dollar goes up.

Minimum wage is a good thing, but a living wage right off the bat is not good. When you start a job, the return on your labor is not as good as it is after you have been there for a while and have learned different jobs that you can fill in on when someone is sick or on vacation. Production needs to be considered. Also, we have benefits on jobs lots of times that need to be considered, like paid holidays, vacation pay, sick days, and often others that are important. Also overtime pay has to be considered, your labor is part of a bigger picture, people have to be able to afford the service or product also. Remember, boosting the minimum wage might make it so the working people can survive, but what about the people living on social security, their money will not go far enough so they can survive without further assistance.

Most places provide longlivity increases with their jobs, the longer you work there the more you get per hour. Now if they go to a living wage at fifteen bucks an hour, there is no way to climb the ladder for being a loyal employee and producing more as your experience grows. I think that the fifteen dollar an hour minimum wage is a stupid thing. It would put most small manufacturers out of business who provide jobs for many people. It would become cheaper for their customers to buy from China and other countries instead of paying way more for the products. It also would make it so new people would not be able to start a business and succeed, it is hard enough with overhead already to start a business. A person starting a business usually has three to five years of not making anything, they would lose money if they had to pay higher wages, remember, unemployment costs, workers comp costs, and social security costs are based off of percentages. That means more expenses and a big increase of income for the government and also, less cost of medicaid and other benefits to help the poor. So the government is the big winner, and the working man is the loser in this. Nobody will get employer paid insurance anymore, holiday and vacation pay will not be given in many cases.

Bad idea...It will raise prices everywhere and the Dems that push this are not thinking things over very well, this liberal action is bad for the United States. I automatically paid more for an experienced worker and paid more for those who worked longer for me too. That is the way it should be, work your way up.