Here is what Happens in a Socialist Economy.

a reply to: MadLad

I think at this point socialism and political ideologies have evolved from their beginnings. People are hell bent on keeping old philosophies intact. I mean, do we follow exactly what Plato described as a democracy to a tee? Not even close, is the US a republic like Rome was? Nope.

Ideas have a beginning, but they don't really have an end to be honest, consistently evolving. I think social programs are the modern day variation of socialism.

originally posted by: strongfp
a reply to: MadLad

I think at this point socialism and political ideologies have evolved from their beginnings. People are hell bent on keeping old philosophies intact. I mean, do we follow exactly what Plato described as a democracy to a tee? Not even close, is the US a republic like Rome was? Nope.

Ideas have a beginning, but they don't really have an end to be honest, consistently evolving. I think social programs are the modern day variation of socialism.

Plato didn't like democracy, but I get your point.

The problem is, most social programs have their origins outside of socialism, and supported by the tax-payers who make money off a capitalist system.

originally posted by: strongfp
I think social programs are the modern day variation of socialism.

I have to strongly disagree with this.

I do, however, think that the next age will be better served starting from a truer socialist starting point.

Capitalism is just not suited very well to handle the future that is coming. It has no real way of handling decentralized personal manufacturing, very low human labour input, IP's as only thing of value environments.

a reply to: strongfp

Maybe I need to stop trying to force the term socialism to fit my views. I don't support social programs from a federal level. I don't believe in being taxed or in having my hard earned fiat removed from my account to provide for others, even if someday there is one program that is actually beneficial. I do believe strongly in a community coming together and freely giving of their surplus towards people falling on hard times. Those that need a small portion of help but then strive to become self sufficient as fast as possible.

From Pexx's presentations of Michael Hudson's work, a story was woven of marx not being a complete socialist in today's view of the term, but socialism of the oligarchs, the wealthy and the powerful. It was an ideal to protect the simple person from predatory behavior from those that are not satisfied with honest earned wealth and constantly fill their appetites.

I fully believe in a free market system but with some controls on how that wealth is earned and concentrated. If it were left up to me, I would get rid of the entire financial system and return to a concept of community banks with no profit motive. But there are way too many people that believe in a free lunch. People even that abhor free stuff that is considered socialism, still fully loves their free money from finance.

Until we remove the parasites ability to leech off of our labor through converted fiat, we are screwed. This system is doing exactly what it was designed to do.

originally posted by: peck420

originally posted by: strongfp
I think social programs are the modern day variation of socialism.

I have to strongly disagree with this.

I do, however, think that the next age will be better served starting from a truer socialist starting point.

Capitalism is just not suited very well to handle the future that is coming. It has no real way of handling decentralized personal manufacturing, very low human labour input, IP's as only thing of value environments.

And Socialism is not well suited for this either. In the end we're going to be asking how much is a life worth. What constitutes basic needs? Food, clothing, and shelter? Flat screen TVs and PS9s? What if we want more? Will it be given to us just because? Or do we resign ourselves to our fate because we didn't get into one of the few high paying fields left that hasn't been taken over by full automation.

You might say get rid of currency altogether, and the same questions still remain.

Our #1 competition in the world has been communism for 100 years. I'm no communist trust me but that must really grind the gears of conservatives.

originally posted by: toysforadults
Our #1 competition in the world has been communism for 100 years. I'm no communist trust me but that must really grind the gears of conservatives.

Only militarily, at the cost of their own citizens. Only one has competed economically, and funnily enough, by adopting more capitalistic practices.

originally posted by: Wardaddy454
And Socialism is not well suited for this either. In the end we're going to be asking how much is a life worth. What constitutes basic needs? Food, clothing, and shelter? Flat screen TVs and PS9s? What if we want more? Will it be given to us just because? Or do we resign ourselves to our fate because we didn't get into one of the few high paying fields left that hasn't been taken over by full automation.

You might say get rid of currency altogether, and the same questions still remain.

Only if we go full retard. But, as the movie stated, you never go full retard.

Socialism is far better equipped to handle the future than capitalism ever will be.

originally posted by: ClovenSky
a reply to: strongfp


Until we remove the parasites ability to leech off of our labor through converted fiat, we are screwed. This system is doing exactly what it was designed to do.

If the population educated themselves on how to make money work for them, instead of working for money that would be a non issue.

Only our labor is taxed, work out how to make money in other ways than through labor and these leeches will have to find other ways of fleecing the public.

originally posted by: Wardaddy454
Only militarily, at the cost of their own citizens. Only one has competed economically, and funnily enough, by adopting more capitalistic practices.

The US has been turning less capitalist since before the cold war started. Keep trying though.

originally posted by: dfnj2015
a reply to: ElectricUniverse

Oh don't worry. Marx always said laissez faire capitalism is followed by communism. This is because unfettered greed would result in the government's currency to collapse to nothing in value when too much is accumulated in too few hands. And once the government's currency collapses in value people the breadlines will demand MORE government not less. See you in the breadlines comrades!!!

He said that but it requires a “dictatorship of the proletariat”. It doesn’t mean that it happens all by itself as a natural progression. Socialism and communism are both failures. I can’t believe that people are not taking the hint from the real socialist/communist failures of the Old Soviet Union and Cuba and Venezuela. Do you just think somehow we can do it better in the US?

II Marx divides the communist future into halves, a first stage generally referred to as the "dictatorship of the proletariat" and a second stage usually called "full communism." The historical boundaries of the first stage are set in the claim that: "Between capitalist and communist society lies the period of the revolutionary transformation of the one into the other. There corresponds to this also a political transition period in which the state can be nothing but the revolutionary dictatorship of the proletariat."

www.nyu.edu...

a reply to: hopenotfeariswhatweneed

How do you make money work for you? That sounds a lot like free money.

A few questions. Is the stock/financial markets a zero sum game? If someone gains on an investment, someone else loses. If that doesn't happen, is money being created out of thin air? I understand creating value through mining, producing or growing, but how many of our remaining industries operate in that form?

Does finance actually create value?

If it isn't a zero sum game and money is being created out of thin air, what does that do to the value of fiat you are currently holding? Should everyone be forced into gambling with their money just to maintain purchasing power? Isn't that what financial markets are anymore? Legalized gambling?

If it was a zero sum game, how long until it would cannibalize itself where no one would participate any more?

originally posted by: Ahabstar
1963 Trabant 601 www.cargurus.com...

1990 Trabant 601 www.carthrottle.com...

That is what socialism gets you. No innovation. No inspiration. No expression. Just the same crap car built year after year for 27 years. And you buy it because that’s what there is to buy.

More than that, people have to use the frame of those vehicles, and use other engines, if they have money or have family living outside of Cuba who sends them money.

BTW, the number of Venezuelans who have become refugee has updated. Now there are 3.4 million Venezuelans living outside of Venezuela who had to seek asylum elsewhere. In two years alone 2.4 million Venezuelans became refugees.

Venezuelan refugees now number 3.4 million; humanitarian implications massive, UN warns

It will only get worse.

Many of these Venezuelans have serious health problems because of the lack of food and medicine.

The problem is most other nations do not have the infrastructure to take care of so many people, and it isn't Venezuela alone. So either countries like Venezuela become capitalists once again, or the influx of refugees from Latin America will destabilize other countries.

This exodus has been called the largest exodus that any Latin American country has ever had.

Meanwhile you have left-wingers in capitalist countries, with their fridges full, wanting to believe the lies of the socialist dictatorship that the dictatorship of Maduro posts in Telesur, meanwhile ignoring the plight and the experiences of millions of Venezuelans. But the same thing has happened to Cubans, or anyone else who once lived under socialism/communism yet many left-wingers want to not only dismiss, but even claim "must be working for the U.S., or the CIA..."

originally posted by: peck420

Only if we go full retard. But, as the movie stated, you never go full retard.

Socialism is far better equipped to handle the future than capitalism ever will be.

So has claimed every socialist/communist who lives under capitalism meanwhile ignoring the facts of socialism...

Go live in Cuba, or Venezuela, or India, or North Korea as one of the regular people, and not as a rich tourist, and then come back to tell us the marvels of socialism...

Socialism only transforms nations into oppressive dictatorships. Socialism is not, and will never be "better equipped to handle the future."

originally posted by: ElectricUniverse

originally posted by: Ahabstar
1963 Trabant 601 www.cargurus.com...

1990 Trabant 601 www.carthrottle.com...

That is what socialism gets you. No innovation. No inspiration. No expression. Just the same crap car built year after year for 27 years. And you buy it because that’s what there is to buy.

More than that, people have to use the frame of those vehicles, and use other engines, if they have money or have family living outside of Cuba who sends them money.

Interesting, and absolutely useless bit of trivia for you...

4 of the most iconic car designers, of all time, are products of fascist Italy.

I believe there may be more to design than our political beliefs, or we have to accept that the best are born in hardship.

originally posted by: peck420
Interesting, and absolutely useless bit of trivia for you...

4 of the most iconic car designers, of all time, are products of fascist Italy.

I believe there may be more to design than our political beliefs, or we have to accept that the best are born in hardship.

The only reason that would be true is because Mussolini, another socialist, thought that instead of class warfare, class collaboration would be much better for the country.

Mussolini worked with corporatists. The corporatist model is very similar to the socialist model. Corporations seek to have all power and control over products and the market, which is what the state under socialism and communism does. The centralization of all power, and control under a small group of people who will always claim to be doing it "for the good of the collective."

In the corporatist model "the good of the collective" is the best choice for the stock holders, even if they have to fire millions of people from their jobs. Under socialism the "good of the collective" is "the dictatorship of the proletariat." But instead of the people being in control a small group of people "claiming to represent the proletariat" has all power and control.

The future of global socialism as envisioned by the UN, and the globalists is one in which "the corporatist model is used."

But just like it happened under Mussolini, or under Hitler, that branch of socialism also oppresses people since the "collective is more important than the individual."

a reply to: ElectricUniverse

Just to throw this out there from 2016. Could there be a possibility that us and our controllers/oligarchs created the majority of suffering there?

US-Led Economic War, Not Socialism, Is Tearing Venezuela Apart

Starting in 2014, the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia flooded the market with cheap oil. This is not a mere business decision, but a calculated move coordinated with U.S. and Israeli foreign policy goals. Despite not just losing money, but even falling deep into debt, the Saudi monarchy continues to expand its oil production apparatus. The result has been driving the price of oil down from $110 per barrel, to $28 in the early months of this year. The goal is to weaken these opponents of Wall Street, London, and Tel Aviv, whose economies are centered around oil and natural gas exports. And Venezuela is one of those countries. Saudi efforts to drive down oil prices have drastically reduced Venezuela’s state budget and led to enormous consequences for the Venezuelan economy.

Corruption is a big problem in Venezuela and many third-world countries. This was true prior to the Bolivarian process, as well as after Hugo Chavez launched his massive economic reforms. In situations of extreme poverty, people learn to take care of each other. People who work in government are almost expected to use their position to take care of their friends and family. Corruption is a big problem under any system, but it is much easier to tolerate in conditions of greater abundance. The problem has been magnified in Venezuela due to the drop in state revenue caused by the low oil prices and sabotage from food importers.

I am not arguing for socialism in any way. I just wonder if the ISMs are only a small part of why a society prospers or dies and the citizen's morals are a very big reason why a society prospers or dies. I can understand socialism corrupting the soul to the point where no one cares anymore. But to blame everything on the magic boogey man of socialism seems dishonest.

I love the hamstering when the point fails.

I also love the rejection of what will happen in the future, when you have shown zero understanding of what the future will hold.

There is no mechanisms in capitalism to handle the future that is coming. The only mechanism that can be applied to capitalism to handle it, is a socialist mechanism.

So, where now?

a reply to: ClovenSky

Before 2014 Venezuela was already in trouble, and Venezuelans were going hungry...

This is from 2010, 4 years before Obama introduced sanctions against Venezuela...

80,000 tons of food rotting in Venezuela government warehouse
06/22/2010 Wintery Knight

Mountains of rotting food found at a government warehouse, soaring prices and soldiers raiding wholesalers accused of hoarding: Food supply is the latest battle in President Hugo Chavez’s socialist revolution.

Venezuelan army soldiers swept through the working class, pro-Chavez neighborhood of Catia in Caracas last week, seizing 120 tons of rice along with coffee and powdered milk that officials said was to be sold above regulated prices.

[…]Critics accuse him of steering the country toward a communist dictatorship and say he is destroying the private sector.

They point to 80,000 tons of rotting food found in warehouses belonging to the government as evidence the state is a poor and corrupt administrator.

Jose Guzman, an assistant manager at a store raided in Catia, watched with resignation as government agents pored over the company’s accounts and computers after the food ministry official and the television cameras left.

“The government is pushing this type of establishment toward bankruptcy,” said Guzman, who linked the raid to the rotten food scandal. “Somehow they have to replace all the food that was lost, and this is the most expeditious way.”
...

80,000 tons of food rotting in Venezuela government warehouse

But instead of admitting the facts you, and some others will try to shift the blame yet again...

Socialists and communists ALWAYS blame the U.S., or capitalists in general, not because it is the U.S. or capitalists who are the problem, but because socialists and communist NEVER admit the failures of their utopias.