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Here is what Happens in a Socialist Economy.

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posted on Mar, 1 2019 @ 05:40 PM
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a reply to: strongfp

Socialism/communism are not pushed by dictators. You continue to deny the fact that these systems ARE dictatorships, as they seek to root out all traces of individuality for "the sake of the collective," "the good of the Earth," or whatever other excuse socialists/communists use to exert control over the populace.

Again, Marx framed one of the many problems of socialism when he said, and I quote:


The meaning of peace is the absence of opposition to socialism. Karl Marx

Read more at: www.brainyquote.com...

Under socialism there can be no opposition whatsoever. It is part of the reason why socialists with different ideas turn against each other, and even murder those who present a danger to their own vision of socialism.


edit on 1-3-2019 by ElectricUniverse because: correct comment.




posted on Mar, 1 2019 @ 05:42 PM
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a reply to: pexx421




See and here we have equating communism and socialism, as well as doublespeak explaining socialism as the opposite of what it really is.


We all know what it is.

Trading one boss for one that is suppose to be better.


edit on 1-3-2019 by neo96 because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 1 2019 @ 05:47 PM
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a reply to: ThirdEyeofHorus

Who is calling for redistribution of land in the US?

What I was getting at is that in Marx's equation of how communism evolves is happening, it's called run away capitalism.

It's cause and effect, there's a reason behind a movement. Did people just all of sudden say "hey, lets have a civil rights movement, just because" or "lets just have a revolution against England because I'm bored"?

Marx proposed that when the divide between upper class and lower class become to large it cannot sustain itself, the middle class get spread to thin, I believe the bourgeoisie comes to mind here.



posted on Mar, 1 2019 @ 05:53 PM
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a reply to: ElectricUniverse

Did you even read my whole post?

I know Marx was critical of socialism, he saw many flaws in many socialists he was acquainted with. Hence why he though of communism.

Let me put into simple terms for you.

Communism cannot be forced, it needs to happen naturally. Dictators force it on people, therefore it's not happening naturally. Then again, if it's forced and it doesn't work; it's not true communism.

The communism we have seen failed many times isn't the vision of Marx. Because not even he knew what it was would look like. Read my quote in the post you replied to.



posted on Mar, 1 2019 @ 06:11 PM
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originally posted by: luiting57
a reply to: ElectricUniverse

The first thing they do is ban guns so they can take your stuff without getting shot.


They do that too, but they do it once they have total control.

One of the things the communist dictatorship of Cuba learned to do was to free criminals in jails and put them as snitches in every neighborhood in Cuba. Now every Cuban knows this, but when it all started people had no idea how the government came to know that in the "supposed safety of their homes" people were talking about their opposition to communism.

But in Venezuela they went to the next level, the dictatorship of Maduro has been releasing hardened criminals from jails and armed them for the purpose of helping Chavistas, and the Cuban soldiers/personnel in Venezuela to control the opposition.

More and more people who once were Chavistas, and at first were in favor of Chavez, realized too late that Chavez was a dictator and these people changed sides. With Maduro the number of Chavistas keeps decreasing, which is why they have been using criminals to help quell dissent by murdering activists, including students, and even minorities like the Pemon Indians whom Chavez and Maduro once claimed to represent.


Armed paramilitary forces and released prisoners have the mission to repress the indigenous peoples who have resisted Maduro's control over humanitarian aid

By Vanesa Vallejo Last updated Feb 24, 2019

On Friday, February 22, the first attack by military forces loyal to Maduro against the Pemon indigenous tribe was recorded in the midst of preparations for the entry of humanitarian aid.

The Pemon ethnic group inhabits southeast Venezuela, on the border with Brazil. The army loyal to the tyrant arrived to take out the Indians who had organized a safe passage for humanitarian aid, they offered resistance and yesterday a man and woman, identified as husband and wife, were killed at the hands of tyranny.
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At least three more deaths have been informed but names have not been provided yet, in addition to 22 injured, three of which have bullet wounds and were rushed in an ambulance to Brazil for surgery.
...

Maduro released prisoners to massacre Pemon Indians


edit on 1-3-2019 by ElectricUniverse because: correct comment.



posted on Mar, 1 2019 @ 06:14 PM
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a reply to: strongfp

Socialism leads to a two class system, with a false middle class made up of party insiders. That is the reality of it. It sounds great on paper but add we humans to the mix and it all falls apart.

There is no reward built into socialism, no goals to achieve and no reason to be productive. Somebody has to do the work. Somebody has to get the advanced education. Somebody has to innovate.

Capitalism gives power to what he calls the proletariat to achieve wealth and success. To move up the ladder and become a part of the bourgeoisie. Socialism leaves only one real path to success and that's to be a party insider and rule over the proletariat.

Marx had it all backwards and history bears that out. He did not even consider the results of capitalist republic like we have here. He saw all persons as being equally capable and equally capable of self motivation. He never considered that a combination of capitalism with some elements of socialism, including regulation of businesses or things like anti-trust laws would be a far better answer. That socialism was the surest pathway to a single party state and two class system escaped him as I recall and I admit it's been many years since I read about him.



posted on Mar, 1 2019 @ 06:19 PM
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a reply to: strongfp

Property is not necessarily land. However land and water rights are another issue under the aegis of Agenda 21. No time to go into it momentarily.



posted on Mar, 1 2019 @ 06:19 PM
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a reply to: Blaine91555

I still fail to see where it is written that in socialism one cannot pursue the career one wants and make a profit doing so. Isn’t this the motivation? To find a way to work doing something you enjoy, and getting paid to do it? And making more money the more successful you are at it? Where does it say you can’t do that in a socialist based system?



posted on Mar, 1 2019 @ 06:20 PM
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a reply to: strongfp

Do you not comprehend that communism can NEVER happen as it exists in your mind?...

Can you not comprehend that billions of people have different ideas than yours and as such they will continue to be individuals meanwhile you want them to become your exact clone?...

Marx was delusional, and he himself was a "tyrant wannabe" who only thought of himself and wanted everyone to think and be like him.

Communism will ALWAYS fail, and enough is enough. More than 110 million people have been murdered as your vision of communism has been tried for over 100 years, and that's not counting the deaths of soldiers in battle. Millions of more people have rot in gulags, concentration camps, re-education centers, hard labor centers for simply disagreeing with socialism and communism. Yet people like you want to "continue trying the failure that socialism and communism are..."




edit on 1-3-2019 by ElectricUniverse because: correct comment.



posted on Mar, 1 2019 @ 06:22 PM
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Socialism was the system that was put forth to directly oppose the system then (and now) of total market control by robber barons, monopolists, and oligarchs. We saw many times through history what happens when they are allowed to dominate society. What, in the absence of socialism, do you guys propose we use to adjudicate between the control and overwhelming power of the capitalist titans of industry, and the worker class?



posted on Mar, 1 2019 @ 06:24 PM
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originally posted by: pexx421
a reply to: Blaine91555

I still fail to see where it is written that in socialism one cannot pursue the career one wants and make a profit doing so. Isn’t this the motivation? To find a way to work doing something you enjoy, and getting paid to do it? And making more money the more successful you are at it? Where does it say you can’t do that in a socialist based system?


Read the op, socialism/communism destroy the wealth of nations. How can you make a profit and earn good money under such systems when socialism/communism seek to control ALL means of production that create wealth?

I even excerpted this, on the first page, from a socialist website and you seemed to have ignored it...


...
The answer is a society where the means of production—factories, mines, railroads, the energy sources, all things used to create new wealth—are owned publicly, not privately. And that means socialism—a society where private property has been abolished.
...

www.workers.org...

Here, let me try to help you once again.


...
The answer is a society where the means of production—factories, mines, railroads, the energy sources, all things used to create new wealth—are owned publicly, not privately. And that means socialism—a society where private property has been abolished.
...

www.workers.org...

Socialism and communism take the wealth from nations and puts it in the hands of the few people who control the socialist/communist government. You as an individual who is not part of the high ranks of the socialists/communists cannot profit from anything under these systems.

BTW, as for those who still think that "public ownership means you all get to profit" can you tell me who owns and controls "public property"?... Let me answer before your heads explode. The government/state owns and controls all public property and do what they want with it.


edit on 1-3-2019 by ElectricUniverse because: add comment.



posted on Mar, 1 2019 @ 06:27 PM
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originally posted by: ElectricUniverse
a reply to: strongfp

Do you not comprehend that communism can NEVER happen as it exists in your mind?...

Can you not comprehend that billions of people have different ideas than yours and as such they will continue to be individuals meanwhile you want them to become your exact clone?...

Marx was delusional, and he himself was a "tyrant wannabe" who only thought of himself and wanted everyone to think and be like him.

Communism will ALWAYS fail, and enough is enough. More than 110 million people have been murdered as your vision of communism has been tried for over 100 years, and that's not counting the deaths of soldiers in battle. Millions of more people have rot in gulags, concentration camps, re-education centers, hard labor centers for simply disagreeing with socialism and communism. Yet people like you want to "continue trying to failure that socialism and communism are..."




Really, how do you know anything about what Marx thought or wanted? He was just a nobody who wrote a book on the criticisms of capitalism. He wasn’t even popular or famous really until after he was dead.



posted on Mar, 1 2019 @ 06:33 PM
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Ah. So, you mean like in North Dakota, with the state owned bank, where all the workers must be living and working under horrible conditions. Or in all our state or military hospitals, which must be empty since no one would choose to work there rather than for profit hospitals. Or maybe the state owned utilities where obviously the workers must make a pittance since there’s no incentive to work and make money there.



posted on Mar, 1 2019 @ 06:36 PM
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originally posted by: pexx421

Really, how do you know anything about what Marx thought or wanted? He was just a nobody who wrote a book on the criticisms of capitalism. He wasn’t even popular or famous really until after he was dead.


It seems obvious I know a bit more than you since you seem to think you can profit and make good wages under socialism or communism.

BTW, Marx's ideas are part of the teachings in Cuba that are brainwashed into students as it is a Marxist-Leninist dictatorship, and I was born there and attended school there. I was also one of millions of students who used to be forced to attend the speeches of the now dead dictator fidel castro, although his brother raul is even worse.

fidel castro used to be known for his long speeches about the good of a socialist economy and a communist system. His speeches could last 3 hours, or even longer. He would also claim all the ills of Cuba were because of capitalists like yourself. Cuban children to this day are indoctrinated into thinking "capitalists like yourself" are the enemy of the Cuban people and the revolution. Not many believe this anymore, even though the communist dictatorship keeps trying to make the people believe these lies.

You are talking about "making a profit" which is what CAPITALISM is about. You seem to be very confused.


edit on 1-3-2019 by ElectricUniverse because: add comment.



posted on Mar, 1 2019 @ 06:51 PM
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originally posted by: pexx421
Socialism was the system that was put forth to directly oppose the system then (and now) of total market control by robber barons, monopolists, and oligarchs. We saw many times through history what happens when they are allowed to dominate society. What, in the absence of socialism, do you guys propose we use to adjudicate between the control and overwhelming power of the capitalist titans of industry, and the worker class?


I'm just curious, but what did you see through history when socialists were allowed to dominate society?

Because look at history: West Germany rising right beside East Germany, North Korea rising right along with South Korea, Capitalism right beside socialism. What do you choose?

Remember, Marx predicted capitalism would send wages plummeting before a revolution. Except he was wrong. As economies advanced, living standards and wages only increased. Meanwhile, nearly every socialist venture in history ended in famine, misery, corruption, genocide, oppression, environmental disaster.


edit on 1-3-2019 by MadLad because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 1 2019 @ 07:16 PM
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a reply to: pexx421

You seem a bit confused?

How do you profit in a system with no capitalism? Even China has embraced capitalism now and are way better off for it. The Chinese people now have hope and a chance, where before only their rulers had anything.

If you live in the US, you live right now in a country that is a mixture of socialism and capitalism. Due to that, you can start dirt poor and die very rich. That is why capitalism works and socialism does not. You can have elements of socialism incorporated into capitalism and in fact that's the best of both worlds.

We are approaching a point now where the protections kick in due to public outcry. Companies like Amazon and Google are on the edge of being taken apart using anti-trust laws. That's how you control capitalism and tame it.

It's been 40 years or more since I read the Communist Manifesto and Das Kapital. You should read it among other things.

Under socialism you can't study, work hard and start a business or become so valuable you get rich working for large companies. Any system that allows that is not practicing socialism, but socialism mixed with something else.

I think you are confusing socialist programs mixed with capitalism, with actual socialism. You can't own land, a house or own a business in a real socialist society.

AOC is not a socialist. Bernie is not a socialist. They are pushing for more socialism in the mix. Even most Democrats are scared of socialism at a Marx level. Why do you think AOC and Bernie are getting pushback from their own party leaders?

Hopefully you have not fallen for the Che Guevara propaganda and the garbage from his lying, murdering ass. He was just good at fooling people and using people to give himself and others power.



posted on Mar, 1 2019 @ 07:54 PM
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a reply to: pexx421

And socialism has always failed. It is not, and has never been a system that helps the people. Capitalism has it's problems, but what you call the problems of "monopolies" and "rober barons" were made true by the progressive democrats who gave the power of the U.S. economy to a group of people who do not care about the people.

You do not solve a problem by making it worse. Socialism has NEVER been, and will NEVER be better than capitalism.

You, with all your whining, earn more money than 20, or even 200 since I am not sure how much you make, families of Cubans, or Venezuelans, or North Koreans, or Chinese people. Although the communist Chinese are using CAPITALISM they still only allow loyal communist party members to enjoy the fruits of capitalism.
edit on 1-3-2019 by ElectricUniverse because: add and correct comment.



posted on Mar, 1 2019 @ 07:58 PM
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a reply to: Blaine91555

Che Guevara was known as the main executioner of fidel castro. He would murder regular people, including minors, as if their lives meant nothing. He claimed that under the revolution there was no need to jury and trials. He was a doctor but used his medical knowledge to torture and murder people. That is the true Che Guevara that the left around the world love.
edit on 1-3-2019 by ElectricUniverse because: correct comment.



posted on Mar, 1 2019 @ 08:21 PM
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a reply to: ElectricUniverse

Marx was a critical thinker he didnt impose anything on anyone. That's why his ideas have lasted over 200 years... he wasnt a leader, a war hero, a revolutionary, he just wrote stuff and it had a massive impact on the world.

Take it as it is. I'm simply putting his works into perspective here. Not pushing anything. I'm a rather apolitical person. And I am pretty critical of most of MArx's propositions, but his overall vision is pretty clear. And it's basically dont let rich people control the population, in government, in economics, in military, dont let a few dictate the mass.



posted on Mar, 1 2019 @ 08:38 PM
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a reply to: Blaine91555

If you have followed my previous posts you will see it all fall into place.

His form of economics was never finished. He was all over the place. But his main proposition was based off end game capitalism, and where it will end up.

It was mentioned in this thread that capitalism was the 'bridge' to communism, but when he makes comments that communism cannot be fulfilled realistically, that its forever changing, the question becomes, will we know it if we have achieved it?

Most of his famous work is within the communist manifesto, which was largely based off the french revolution. But we have seen in several instances since then communism is either forced and failed, or go straight back to a free market, capitalist approach, with elements of communism / socialism still intact.

That's what he proposed. It will slowly integrate. And so far, hes correct, political and social economics arent set in stone. They evolve. Just like he proposed.




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