The Fear of God and so can you.

originally posted by: cooperton

originally posted by: narrator
In my opinion, debating whether or not god exists is pointless.

Why are you here then? I would go through and answer all the questions you raised but you're only asking them to try to trap people, you don't actually care to learn other perspective. So again, why are you even here?

Initially, I commented because I disagree with the OP but I'm still interested in the discussion. Religion (in general) fascinates me.

Did I misunderstand, and the point of the OP was actually to debate about the existence of god? If so, then I shouldn't be here, you're right. I didn't get that impression.

I'm here because, despite the fact that I'm an atheist, I enjoy learning about religions, and discussing them, with their followers. It's like learning about a foreign culture to me.

I mean zero ill-will in any of my comments, just because I disagree with you doesn't mean I'm anti-you being religious. If religion plays an important role in your life, and makes you a better person, then I'm honestly very glad for you. It doesn't do that for me. Does that mean we can't have a discussion about it?

I'm not trying to trap anyone. I feel like I'm asking legitimate questions.

To be clear, don't try to convert me, because that isn't going to happen, especially over the internet. But I'd still like to talk about it, and why y'all believe what you do.

If that feels like a trap to you, then you don't have to have that discussion with me. I'm just questioning and presenting alternative viewpoints. None of us are wrong, because there's no proof of any of this. Any of us could be right. That makes it interesting to me.

But, if you don't want the conversation, I'm fine with you ignoring me.

I should tell you though, this is a discussion forum, and it's ATS in particular. Don't expect everyone to agree with you.

originally posted by: SeaWorthy

originally posted by: narrator

originally posted by: SeaWorthy
a reply to: narrator

If you've read my post, you'll notice that I've read the bible, in it's entirety.

Reading through the bible you don't learn much, ancient texts can be confusing.

Then how would you suggest I learn?

I've been told in this thread that my Catholic upbringing shouldn't affect my thoughts on religion, and now I'm being told that the bible shouldn't hold weight either.

What else is there? Just blindly believe in it?

I hope you are not being serious. I am to old for games I don't get. Did you not understand what was said or just joking?
My statement is that it takes a lot more than reading through the bible once. Ask and you shall receive, if you want to know ask God in Jesus name and he will help you in .
I cannot count the times I have read through the bible, yet every time I learn more.

I'm not joking, but I'm also not being sarcastic. What you just suggested is exactly why I'm asking these questions. According to people on this thread, my Catholic upbringing should have no bearing on what religion is because Catholicism is faulty (truth), and reading the bible also won't answer questions unless I read it multiple times.

This is what interests me. "Ask and you shall receive, if you want to know ask God in Jesus name and he will help you in". I did that for approximately 10 years throughout my adolescence, until I determined that I actually didn't believe in it/him/etc.

So you're saying that really the only way to understand god is to sincerely ask him about what he is/wants?

Again, I'm not trying to troll. There's just so many things about god/religion/whatever you want to call it that make zero sense to me. I truly enjoy talking with religious people about it.

To be frank, most of the time it ends up with the same results that it seems like this discussion is headed towards. They take my questioning as trolling/making fun, then get upset and stop the conversation.

That is honestly NOT what I'm going for. I'm not looking to be a born-again Christian or anything, I'm never going to believe in/worship your particular god. But does that disqualify me from talking about him and asking questions about him?

It's like learning about a foreign culture to me. I spent a year teaching English in southeast Asia, and traveled all over the continent. I've been to 20-odd countries so far. There are many parts of those cultures that I'm never going to believe or agree with, but that doesn't mean that it isn't fascinating to me.

I know that a lot of atheists come at religious people from a negative standpoint. I'm not doing that, but I understand your hesitance. I, in no way, want to be converted. I'm perfectly happy and content with my non-religious existence (I actually practice a lot of Buddhist/Taoist teachings, but more in a philosophical way than a religious one), but that doesn't mean I don't want to learn about other's religious cultures.

It's a bit frustrating that folks such as myself, when asking serious questions, are met with hostility when asking questions like these. I'm in no way trying to take away from your religion. I'm just stating my viewpoints on the subject, that happen to differ from yours.

I could be 100%, entirely wrong. Or I could be 100%, entirely right. That is so fascinating to me, the unknown. But whichever one of those is accurate, it doesn't matter to me in the slightest, because I'm living a very happy life.

Here's my philosophy on all of it:
-When I pass on (not that that's going to happen anytime soon), if that's the true end and there's no afterlife, then that's ok because I'm living a fantastic and full life now.
-If there actually is a god and I go to final judgement, I like to think he'll judge me on what good I've done in my life, and I'll pass muster to get to paradise. If he negatively judges me only because I didn't believe in him while I was alive (despite the fact that I'm a good person), then I'll be glad that I didn't worship him, because I wouldn't want to be associated with someone who would do that to a good person.
-If I'm reincarnated, awesome. It'd be really cool to experience life through another's eyes.
-If something unknown happens, well that's cool too, it's all part of the experience.


This being the thread it is, I'll respectfully bow out of it, as I know that my questions can be taken as a form of trolling (even though that's not what I'm doing, sincerely).
I'll respect your religious beliefs enough to not question them further.

originally posted by: narrator

So, we're to believe that god:

-God creates all sorts of things that will kill us in terrible ways (disease, etc

Beelzebub is the lord of flies/filth/disease and so forth. Jesus puts beelzebub as the contrary result if you don't walk the path of God.

-Doesn't tell us how to solve those problems, even though he knows how because he's omnipotent.

The entire gospel is Jesus's explanation on how to liberate your self from the slavery of pursuing erroneous desires. Sin, The theological cause of death and disease, is defiance to the divine ordinance that is meant for our development

-Tells us we have to love him or we go to hell

if we don't choose the truth we are left blindly pursuing our lame desires ad-infinitum. We create our own hell by defying virtue. Check out Dante's Inferno.

even though he's given us zero proof he actually exists.

God manifested uninhibited in human form to conquer death and insist we all follow the guidelines so we too can perceive truth in its purest form.

-Created us in his image, but condemns people to hell for acting the way they were created.

Again, hell is like a pervy bro at the bar ravenously seeking to satisfy his insatiable lust. He doesn't even know he's in hell. He doesn't even know he has lost control to his vices. He doesn't even know the agony that he is pursuing.

-Gave us free will, but if we use it to decide to follow another religion (or none) then condemns us to hell.

What religions are you referring to? Judaism served its purpose to prepare for Christ. Muslims believe Christ is al-masih (the Messiah). Krishna "The anointed one" (same meaning as Christ), was a foreshadowing of the Christ to come, but was not sufficient because Krishna did not overcome death, he was an enlightened being that talked of the cross to come.

What I'm getting at is that all roads lead to Rome... Jesus manifests to those who follow the law inscribed in their hearts. You don't need the Bible because your being contains the infinite depths of all knowledge, but the Bible helps reinforce the ideas that arise in your developing soul. Jesus is that token of faith that we can remind ourselves of when doubt creeps in.

-Told a guy to kill his son (Abraham and Isaac) as a sacrifice to prove his devotion.

God did this to exalt Abraham, because it proved Abraham would be willing to do what God would one day do with his firstborn. It was also another foreshadowing of the Christ. It allowed Abraham to pre-conceive the Christ, and live in the heavenly glory in which Abraham saw Jesus's eternity, and "he was glad".

Bottom line, to me, the Christian god seems sociopathic.

The Christian God is forgiveness, love, altruism, mercy, justice, humility, service, respect, wisdom and so forth... What part of that do you assume to be sociopathic? You are expressing a very superficial understanding of the Bible.

I have no desire to believe in and worship someone who has supposedly done so many outright terrible things.

He Healed the sick and taught for free, and would not compromise the truth even to the point of death. This sounds to me like the perfect psychological archetype that we should all strive to resemble if we wish the best for our self and the world.

a reply to: narrator

I doubt anyone ever minds questions as long as they are asked with respect. I know I don't.

James 4:1-4 (ESV):
1What causes quarrels and what causes fights among you? Is it not this, that your passions are at
war within you?
2 You desire and do not have, so you murder. You covet and cannot obtain, so
you fight and quarrel. You do not have, because you do not ask.
3You ask and do not receive,
because you ask wrongly, to spend it on your passions.
4 You adulterous people! Do you not
know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Therefore whoever wishes to be a friend
of the world makes himself an enemy of God.

a reply to: narrator

Interesting, I don't care whether our world is virtual or whatever it is, I know my creator really loves me and cares about my well being, I say "let your will be done" "as it is in heaven, (would that not be wonderful to have it as it is in heaven) and I mean it because I know he is the only path that leads to happy, healthy, humans, animal and plants the designer is the only one that can fix what we humans chose to break. I am grateful he gave us that chance and that Jesus was willing to redeem us for that chance.

www.marquette.edu...

Made with a pattern... This description of the two creations, the invisible creation which was the pattern for the visible is usually said to be Philo retelling the Genesis account in terms derived from Plato, but this I doubt. Philo was from a priestly family[8], and it is not impossible that he was giving the traditional explanation of the creation stories which owed nothing to Plato. The speaker in Proverbs 8 also saw the works of Day One.

The speaker was begotten[29] before the mountains, the hills and the earth, and was with the Creator when he established the heavens and the fountains of the deep and when he set limits to the waters and marked out the foundations of the earth. This chapter emphasises that the speaker was witness to the works of Day One. The one who was newly born witnessed the creation, exactly what Cosmas, many centuries later, said of Moses.

Then having taken him up into the mountain, he hid him in a cloud and took him out of all earthly things... and he gave him a new birth as if he were a child in the womb... and revealed to him all that he had done in making the world in six days, showing him in six other days the making of the world, performing in his presence the work of each day.... (Cosmas 3.13)[30] When Philo described the apotheosis of Moses on Sinai he said that he entered the darkness where God was; ‘...the unseen, invisible, incorporeal, and archetypal essence of all existing things and he beheld what is hidden from the sight of mortal nature’ (Moses 1.158).

This is what the Qumran texts describe as the raz nihyeh, (4Q300, 417), what 1 Peter describes as ‘the things into which angels long to look’ (1 Pet.1.12). Elsewhere Philo explained that this invisible world was made on the first day of the creation .. a beautiful copy would never be produced apart from a beautiful pattern... so when God willed to create this visible world he first fully formed the intelligible (i.e. invisible) world in order that he might have the use of a pattern wholly God-like and incorporeal in producing the material world as a later creation, the very image of the earlier (Creation 16) 1.

The ability to see the future the veil between the holy and most holy as a divider between our reality and the creator. When Ezra asks about the LORD's future plans for his people, he is assured that the One who planned all things would also see them to their end. Everything had been decided ‘before the winds blew and the thunder sounded and the lightning shone, before the foundations of paradise were laid and the angels were gathered together, before the heights of the air were lifted up and the measures of the firmaments were named, before the present years were reckoned’ (2 Esdr.6.1-6).

Ezra is told that everything was planned in the holy of holies, before time. The visionary saw history depicted on the veil, on the other side, so to speak, of matter and time. This probably explains the experience of Habakkuk, centuries earlier, who stood on the tower, a common designation for the holy of holies[11], and saw there ‘a vision of the future, it awaits its time, it hastens to the end, ... it will surely come it, will not delay’ (Hab.2.2-3). He recorded what he saw on tablets. 2 Baruch, on the other hand, says that Moses on Sinai received a vision rather than instruction and that it included knowledge about the future. He showed him.. ‘the end of time...the beginning of the day of judgement... worlds that have not yet come’ (2 Bar.59.4-10 c.f. 2 Esdr.14.4). Something similar was said of Jesus by the early Christian writers Ignatius of Antioch, Clement of Alexandria and Origen: that he was the high priest who had passed through the curtain and revealed the secrets of the past, the present and the future

[12]. History seen in the sanctuary, whether this was described as a tower or as Sinai, was history seen outside the limitations of space and time and this explains why histories in the apocalyptic writings are surveys not only of the past but also of the future as everything was depicted on the veil. 2. People need a new form to visit god or heaven In 2 Enoch there is an account of how Enoch was taken to stand before the heavenly throne. Michael was told to remove his earthly clothing, anoint him and give him the garments of glory; ‘I looked at myself, and I had become like one of his glorious ones’ (2 En.22.10).

This bears a strong resemblance Zechariah 3, where Joshua the high priest stands before the LORD, is vested with new garments and given the right to stand in the presence of the LORD. As late as the sixth century Cosmas Indicopleustes, an Egyptian Christian, wrote a great deal about the temple and its symbolism, and we shall have cause to consider his evidence at several points.

Of Moses he said: the LORD hid him in a cloud on Sinai, took him out of all earthly things ‘and begot him anew like a child in the womb’ (Cosmas Christian Topography 3.13), clearly the same as Psalm 2; ‘I have set my king on Zion... You are my son. Today I have begotten you’ but using the imagery of reclothing with heavenly garments, rather than rebirth.

a reply to: cooperton

Originally posted by cooperton
Fear of God works in the same way that fear of your biological parents prevented you from playing with fire, indulging in risky behavior, and so forth. If you truly believe God is omniscient, then it is absolutely illogical to not strive towards an entire orientation with God's will. Surely, due to God's omniscience, God will know what would bring you happiness more than you do. For this reason your attempts to force happiness on your self with hedonistic pursuits will always be digging a bottomless pit. Whereas practicing altruism, forgiveness, righteousness and the love meant to unite humanity back together will re-align your self with God.

Joecroft How can I also love that which I fear…?
It’s actually our spiritual dis-connection from God that leads to fear, and uncertainty etc…
My parents would always explain to me why something was wrong…They taught me the difference and that’s why I loved them…It’s the exact same thing with God. God wants us to know right from wrong…It’s through understanding God and our spiritual connection to him…that we learn to live more righteously…not through fear imo…- JC

IT IS our dis-connection or 'Dis-Member-Ment' from God (by others) that leads to fear. Liken it to parents abandoning you to chaos. You must Re-Member your relationship to God (It is begging for you to do this). The Ego Is Not Your Friend.

originally posted by: Nothin

originally posted by: KansasGirl

originally posted by: Nothin

originally posted by: Sheye
a reply to: narrator

Child bettered by fearing a parent -Holding back affection to demonstrate a point This sounds like terrible parenting. Children should see their parents as a source of comfort, security, and knowledge, not fear.

Children that behave often do it because of fear of repercussions from loving parents. Otherwise you have footballs being thrown in areas where things can break or children doing dangerous things that may harm them or others. A healthy fear of parents is essential in bringing up well behaved children.

1955 called: they want their 'Father Know's Best'; children-should-be-seen-and-not-heard; that deserves a paddlin'; .."...well behaved children..."... , BS back.

IMHO: ..."...well behaved children..."... is a self-serving parenting interest, and the tactics used to achieve such (fear), have nothing to do with child development.

..."...Your little statement is one of the most ignorant I've read on this site..."...

Sorry that you see it that way.
Perhaps you'll understand, that am not interested in responding to your questions.

Trust me, I TOTALLY understand why you aren't interested in answering my questions.

That's a cowardly cop-out, and suggests that you're using it so that you don't have to admit they are good questions and my points about raising well-behaved children are spot on.

But go ahead and try to pretend it's not obvious why you won't answer the questions.

originally posted by: KansasGirl

originally posted by: Nothin

originally posted by: KansasGirl

originally posted by: Nothin

originally posted by: Sheye
a reply to: narrator

Child bettered by fearing a parent -Holding back affection to demonstrate a point This sounds like terrible parenting. Children should see their parents as a source of comfort, security, and knowledge, not fear.

Children that behave often do it because of fear of repercussions from loving parents. Otherwise you have footballs being thrown in areas where things can break or children doing dangerous things that may harm them or others. A healthy fear of parents is essential in bringing up well behaved children.

1955 called: they want their 'Father Know's Best'; children-should-be-seen-and-not-heard; that deserves a paddlin'; .."...well behaved children..."... , BS back.

IMHO: ..."...well behaved children..."... is a self-serving parenting interest, and the tactics used to achieve such (fear), have nothing to do with child development.

..."...Your little statement is one of the most ignorant I've read on this site..."...

Sorry that you see it that way.
Perhaps you'll understand, that am not interested in responding to your questions.

Trust me, I TOTALLY understand why you aren't interested in answering my questions.

That's a cowardly cop-out, and suggests that you're using it so that you don't have to admit they are good questions and my points about raising well-behaved children are spot on.

But go ahead and try to pretend it's not obvious why you won't answer the questions.

Well: maybe you're right...

originally posted by: SeaWorthy

originally posted by: Woodcarver
a reply to: cooperton

Gods aren’t real. People’s imaginations are though. I think your rant goes a long way to back that up.

tHERE IS A LOT AT STAKE SO i HOPE YOU HAVE HEAVILY RESEARCHED YOUR POSITION.
dO YOU EVER WONDER WHY SO MANY INTELLIGENT PEOPLE OVER (SORRY) the centuries have felt the opposite of you?

If you have some hard evidence I am willing to take a look at it. But if you only have opinion and anticdote, I will be happy to point it out as such.

a reply to: Woodcarver

MANY INTELLIGENT PEOPLE OVER (SORRY) the centuries have felt the opposite of you?

Plenty of proof for this part

originally posted by: cooperton

... Now is the time to change your mind, and remove yourself from the self-destructive habits. ... Taste and see.

This notion (and in light of the opening post) is nicely complemented by something God himself says at Isaiah 48:17,18:

17 This is what Jehovah says, your Repurchaser, the Holy One of Israel:

“I, Jehovah, am your God,

The One teaching you to benefit yourself,* [Or “for your own good.”]

The One guiding you in the way you should walk.

18 If only you would pay attention to my commandments!

Then your peace would become just like a river

And your righteousness like the waves of the sea.

Fear of God​—Can It Benefit You?

Fear the true God and keep his commandments. For this is the whole obligation of man.”​—ECCLESIASTES 12:13.

DOES the expression “fear of God” sound strange to you? Many may feel that if they really love God, they should not have to fear him too. Do we really have to do both? If so, how does the fear of God benefit us?

2 The Scriptures show that our worship and service of God must be based on love. Jesus made this clear when he told us to love Jehovah with our whole heart, soul, mind, and strength. (Mark 12:30) But the importance of fearing God is also stressed in his Word. Very pointedly, we are told at Ecclesiastes 12:13: “Fear the true God and keep his commandments. For this is the whole obligation of man.” Is Jehovah inconsistent in asking us to fear him and to love him at the same time?

3 Not really​—if we keep in mind that there are different kinds of fear. When people think of fear, they usually have in mind a morbid feeling that destroys hope and makes us discouraged. Obviously, Jehovah would not want us to feel that way about him! Our heavenly Father wants us to come to him just as a child would come to his father, confident of his father’s love and yet at the same time fearing to displease him. Such fear will help us remain obedient to our heavenly Father when tempted to do wrong. This is a proper “godly fear” that Christians must have.​—Hebrews 5:7; 11:7.

4 Jehovah is not like an unfeeling judge who simply punishes his servants each time they slip. Rather, he loves them and wants them to succeed. So if we make a mistake or commit a sin, fear of Jehovah should not restrain us from speaking to him about it. (1 John 1:9; 2:1) Our respectful fear of Jehovah is not a fear of being rebuffed or rejected. As we read at 1 John 4:18: “There is no fear in love, but perfect love throws fear outside, because fear exercises a restraint.” “Perfect love,” however, would not eliminate the deep respect and proper fear that we should have for Jehovah as our Creator and Life-giver.​—Psalm 25:14.

Consider the Benefits

...

1 John 5:2,3:

By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and carry out his commandments. 3 For this is what the love of God means, that we observe his commandments; and yet his commandments are not burdensome,

In that manner, both the love and the fear of God are connected. Both will cause a person to want to “carry out his commandments”, “observe his commandments”, to “pay attention” to them, including his instruction and wise counsel. The text above also reminds us that observing his commandments or carrying them out, is basically a demonstration of love, both for God and “the children of God” (those who do this as well). This is all nicely summed up by the 2 main commandments that Jesus emphasized that all the other instructions, commandments and laws in the Hebrew Scriptures were based on (you can see those as additional details and instructions on how to observe these 2 commandments). Matthew 22:35-40:

35 And one of them, versed in the Law, tested him by asking: 36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?” 37 He said to him: “‘You must love Jehovah your God with your whole heart and with your whole soul and with your whole mind.’ 38 This is the greatest and first commandment. 39 The second, like it, is this: ‘You must love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 On these two commandments the whole Law hangs, and the Prophets.”

Law: When it is capitalized, this word refers either to the Mosaic Law or to the first five books of the Bible.

Is the Devil Real?

Yes, the Bible teaches that Satan the Devil is, indeed, a real person. Critics of the Bible, however, scoff at such a portrayal of the Devil. Satan, they say, merely represents the principle of evil that resides in humans.

Should we be surprised by the confusion regarding Satan’s true identity? Not at all. To illustrate: A criminal might wipe his fingerprints from a crime scene so that he may conceal his identity and thus continue his illegal activity undetected. Similarly, Satan is a criminal mastermind who is content to operate behind the scenes, promoting moral corruption. Jesus clearly identified Satan as the one responsible for the evil state of human affairs. Jesus called Satan “the ruler of this world.”​—John 12:31.
...
The corrupt state of human affairs bears testimony to the existence of a real Devil. The nations of this world let surplus food rot while their hungry populations starve. The nations store up weapons of mass destruction for mutual annihilation. They pollute earth’s environment. Yet, most people are blind to the source of such hateful, self-destructive behavior. Why?

The Bible reveals that Satan “has blinded the minds of the unbelievers.” (2 Corinthians 4:4) To manipulate humanity, Satan employs an invisible organization. He is “the ruler of the demons.” (Matthew 12:24) Just as a boss of an organized crime ring can run a large illegal empire without revealing himself to all those involved, so Satan uses his insidious organization of wicked angels to control masses of people who remain largely unaware of his role or influence.

How thankful we can be that the Bible unmasks the Devil and exposes his organization! We can thus take steps to resist the Devil’s influence. The Bible admonishes us: “Subject yourselves . . . to God; but oppose the Devil, and he will flee from you.”​—James 4:7.

The things the Bible teaches us really are for our own benefit. Jehovah's intentions are good, even though, like the commandments and restrictions of parents to their children, it may not always be appreciated by those who feel their freedoms are restricted by them so that they cannot do what they want to do (in regards to self-destructive behaviour that they do not recognize as such because of being blinded by “the ruler of this world”​). But just like in the parent-child scenario, they usually are for your own good. The parents are speaking from their own knowledge and experience and wish no harm to come to their children, it's not about encroaching on a child's freedoms.

Isaiah 8:13:
13 Jehovah of armies—he is the One you should regard as holy,
He is the One you should fear,
And he is the One who should cause you to tremble.”

Isaiah 29:23:
23 For when he sees his children,
Who are the work of my hands, in his midst,
They will sanctify my name;
Yes, they will sanctify the Holy One of Jacob,
And they will stand in awe of the God of Israel.

Deuteronomy 32:3:
3 For I will declare the name of Jehovah.
Tell about the greatness of our God!

Psalm 34:3:
ג [Gimel]
3 Magnify Jehovah along with me;
Let us exalt his name together.

originally posted by: Woodcarver
If you have some hard evidence I am willing to take a look at it. But if you only have opinion and anticdote, I will be happy to point it out as such.

What exactly would suffice for you as proof? Someone conquering death - the great fear of humankind? Miraculous healing? Or would you prefer more "scientific" evidence such as the genetic code? Code obviously does not code itself. No macbook computer can be upgraded by random chance, and by no means could it be created from scratch by random chance. Let alone a garage door opener. Yet the human body and all of biology is far more complex than the most complex human invention that requires intelligence compounding upon intelligence... So how much more would the great organic biological supercomputers (humans) require an intelligent creator than the short-lived machines that us intelligence humans make?

You'll surely bury your head in the sand, because you aren't looking for proof of God, you're looking for proof that God doesn't exist. So much so that you even deny the usefulness of discipline in raising a child to disconnect yourself from the concept of heavenly discipline. It is not You, but the pessimism festering inside becoming more and more malignant, slowly stripping you of all hope. You don't have to continue this path. When you are sick and tired of hopelessness, look for proof of God and you will realize it is everywhere. For now you look for darkness and you find it.

Again, what would suffice for you as proof of God?



a reply to: whereislogic

very well said thank you. Hebrews 12 is mostly about logically addressing the discipline of God

"It is for discipline that you have to endure. God is treating you as sons. For what son is there whom his father does not discipline? If you are left without discipline, in which all have participated, then you are illegitimate children and not sons. Besides this, we have had earthly fathers who disciplined us and we respected them. Shall we not much more be subject to the Father of spirits and live? For they disciplined us for a short time as it seemed best to them, but he disciplines us for our good, that we may share his holiness. For the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant, but later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it." (Hebrew 12:7-11)

originally posted by: cooperton
a response to: Woodcarver

You'll surely bury your head in the sand, because you aren't looking for proof of God, you're looking for proof that God doesn't exist. ...

Again, what would suffice for you as proof of God?

That reminds me of some things said by this guy at 2:29 - 5:17 and 7:45 - 9:07:

originally posted by: cooperton

a reply to: whereislogic

very well said thank you. Hebrews 12 is mostly about logically addressing the discipline of God

"It is for discipline that you have to endure. God is treating you as sons. For what son is there whom his father does not discipline? If you are left without discipline, in which all have participated, then you are illegitimate children and not sons. Besides this, we have had earthly fathers who disciplined us and we respected them. Shall we not much more be subject to the Father of spirits and live? For they disciplined us for a short time as it seemed best to them, but he disciplines us for our good, that we may share his holiness. For the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant, but later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it." (Hebrew 12:7-11)

If one's brother and his wife come visit for the weekend: is there the will/need to discipline them?

Why discipline sons/children, other than to get them to behave according to the parents individual opinions?

Because the parent fears god, then the parent should instill fear into the child?

Haven't seen a decent argument for WHY children should be disciplined, other than parental self-interest.

a reply to: Nothin

Haven't seen a decent argument for WHY children should be disciplined, other than parental self-interest.

Remember those words next time a group of kids thinks its cool to throw stones at the windows of your car or home.

originally posted by: Sheye
a reply to: Nothin

Haven't seen a decent argument for WHY children should be disciplined, other than parental self-interest.

Remember those words next time a group of kids thinks its cool to throw stones at the windows of your car or home.

What's the difference, if it's an adult or a kid causing damage?
Do you assume that disciplined children are never naughty?
Why should children behave the way you want them to?

a reply to: Nothin

Why should children behave the way you want them to?

A someone who has seem a lot of life I can say.
1. Children do not feel loved when they are allowed to just do as they will.
2 The People I know who were raised undisciplined are alcoholics, drug addicts and some dead at young ages.
3. The lovingly disciplined who I have watched grow up are confident, accomplished happy men and Women and have wonderful lives.

originally posted by: Nothin

What's the difference, if it's an adult or a kid causing damage?
Do you assume that disciplined children are never naughty?
Why should children behave the way you want them to?

Discipline is a means of correcting self-destructive behavior. Just like adults who commit crimes go to jail. There are repercussion for actions.

originally posted by: SeaWorthy
a reply to: Nothin

Why should children behave the way you want them to?

A someone who has seem a lot of life I can say.
1. Children do not feel loved when they are allowed to just do as they will.
2 The People I know who were raised undisciplined are alcoholics, drug addicts and some dead at young ages.
3. The lovingly disciplined who I have watched grow up are confident, accomplished happy men and Women and have wonderful lives.

Have also seen a lot of life. Many have.
1. Feeling loved or not: has no correlation to children 'doing as they will', or not.
2 and 3. It's great that you have a blessed life, with no sickness, mental illness, divorce, addictions, financial troubles, cheating, lying, stress, worries, harassment, prejudice, judgementalism, egoism, any-ism, young-deaths, nor any of the problems that seem to be in almost every family, in most Western nations.
But can assure you have personally seen that these modern, and not so modern ills care not whether one was raised in a strict-disciplined manner, or not. Fear, god, or not: no difference.

(Don't 'know' these things. They are merely opinion/belief/temporary ideas/observations).

originally posted by: cooperton

originally posted by: Nothin

What's the difference, if it's an adult or a kid causing damage?
Do you assume that disciplined children are never naughty?
Why should children behave the way you want them to?

Discipline is a means of correcting self-destructive behavior. Just like adults who commit crimes go to jail. There are repercussion for actions.

Not all adults whom commit crimes go to jail. That's a false statement, sorry.

Agreed that any parent with a 'self-destructive' teenager, should consider discipline, along with other possible solutions.