Bilderbergers

Sebat, am I to understand you, a relatively newcomer, has called me a troll? Am I to believe that you have made another assumption, and at the same time, made allegations against me? I would suggest, if this be the case, you peruse a few years of posts by this poster, and read the evidence posted by this writer. Understand, I do not feel the need to regurgitate evidence and facts for every newcomer to the board. I do not have the time nor inclination to humor every new person that comes along.

Don't just read my history on this board, as it only goes back about 4 1/2 years; read the posts of other members who have been around longer than me, many of whom have left, growing weary of empty attacks by frothing-mouthed zealots.

Originally posted by Thomas Crowne
Sebat, am I to understand you, a relatively newcomer, has called me a troll? Am I to believe that you have made another assumption, and at the same time, made allegations against me? I would suggest, if this be the case, you peruse a few years of posts by this poster, and read the evidence posted by this writer. Understand, I do not feel the need to regurgitate evidence and facts for every newcomer to the board. I do not have the time nor inclination to humor every new person that comes along.

Don't just read my history on this board, as it only goes back about 4 1/2 years; read the posts of other members who have been around longer than me, many of whom have left, growing weary of empty attacks by frothing-mouthed zealots.

I don't know who you are, nor why you are relevant to this conversation, but I DO believe that if you are going to make a claim, especially a claim involving people on this thread, that you have a duty to provide evidence of your claim. Otherwise, exactly what does that claim mean? Nothing.

And I DO believe that the definition of a troll is someone who makes claims without any foundation, especially for the purpose of angering other members. Is it not? Again, I have never read your posts, so I don't know. But I DO KNOW that certain other people on this forum LOVE to make outrageous claims, seemingly for the purpose of getting a rise out of members on this forum. They are indeed trolls.

The purpose of making a claim in the first place is to make other people believe what you are saying. How do you expect someone to believe you if you don't substanciate your claim with some conclusive proof? It's easy for me to call you a child-molester. But should I really be saying that if I don't have proof to back it up?


[edit on 27-3-2005 by sebatwerk]

Originally posted by akilles
OK, so first of all.
Sorry for not sharing your belief system involving the use of numbers, and not believing you that "only these numbers have significance".

You asked for example of claims you made that you did not provide evidence for. I provided that, and even gave specific examples of times that you were POLITELY ASKED to provide SOMETHING that would allow us to continue the conversation. The time to explain your claims was THEN, Akilles. Not now.

Allow us to continue the conversation?

What imaginary world do you live in?

I ended those discussions when I was ATTACKED, not when I was politely asked for my further opinion, as well as what some might call evidence.

"You've also accused masons of murdering detractors, without providing evidence:"

And here I'll list the facts. The two MOST famous Masonic detractors were William Morgan and Stephen Knight. They were by no means Anti-Masons, and both died before their time, although both unexplainably (what were Knight's odds of contracting THAT form of cancer?).
What can be said, except that both men were not seeking to profit from Masonry, they dedicated their lives to expose it.

"In the same thread, you also claim that Freemasonry is used as a front for high-level" masons to conduct criminal activities, based completely on speculation."

The evidence, in its most current, readily available form is in the underground dealings of 33 degree Mason Ilia Pavlov, who unfortunately is not currently under investigation (hindering the collecting of evidence) due to being dead. He was a major drug runner, as you would have to be to become a practically self-made Billionaire (well, his (mason) father in law was in charge of Secret Police so he had so help).

Do you want me to list all the scandals involving Charities, as opposed to the lack of scandals involved with giving people on the street $1 or $5 every day?
I think Charity in Freemasonry is entirely for show. The World's Richest People LOVE passing themselves off as massive philanthropists, and they have taught Masons to do so on a smaller scale.

Originally posted by akilles
And here I'll list the facts. The two MOST famous Masonic detractors were William Morgan and Stephen Knight. They were by no means Anti-Masons, and both died before their time, although both unexplainably (what were Knight's odds of contracting THAT form of cancer?).
What can be said, except that both men were not seeking to profit from Masonry, they dedicated their lives to expose it.

"In the same thread, you also claim that Freemasonry is used as a front for high-level" masons to conduct criminal activities, based completely on speculation."

The evidence, in its most current, readily available form is in the underground dealings of 33 degree Mason Ilia Pavlov, who unfortunately is not currently under investigation (hindering the collecting of evidence) due to being dead. He was a major drug runner, as you would have to be to become a practically self-made Billionaire (well, his (mason) father in law was in charge of Secret Police so he had so help).

You just don't get it, do you?!? AGAIN, you offer NO conclusive evidence of ANYTHING you've claimed above, only speculation. What's the point of repeating this over and over again? Do you think people are going to believe you simply based on your word?

I kind of wish it was someone else other than myself that was bringing this up but I was looking up what had become of my last employer in Australia and it was the case that the company I worked for was in charge of the e-voting software deployment in Michigan State.

Basically the CEO of our company shot himself in November 2004 after a stand-off outside his house with State Troopers investigating fraud and corruption.

I remember FOX news cheerfully deriding how the exit polls "weren't even close on that one."

Is anyone investigating...Hell no, the CEO was a crook, shot himself, all over, nothing to see here.

Google "cybernet barton watson"

I'm proud to say I was actually fired from this company because I displayed an inability to work within "The Team" structure.

[edit on 28-3-2005 by MrNECROS]

Originally posted by Hellmutt

Originally posted by mickmeaney
hahaha do you have a url for that? I'd like to read more

Just in norwegian unfortunately. Maybe you can run it through a translator or something? They don´t mention she´s a Bilderberger, I don´t think they know.
Drammens Tidende: Clemet hetset på skolens nettside

Why would the minister of education for Norwqy be invited? I have seen some meeting guest lists over the years, and recognized virtually every name...Bill Gates, Bush, Blair, Prince Charles, Mandela, Conrad Black, etc.
I just cant see why a Norwegian education minister would be there.

Originally posted by akilles
OK, so first of all.
Sorry for not sharing your belief system involving the use of numbers, and not believing you that "only these numbers have significance".

Now, take 1733 16th St for example. Any one who looks at that sees 33, and 17 16. Does everyone see 33 33? Does that mean it isnt there? Does that mean they got lucky???

Yep. There's a 33. So I SUPPOSE we should implicate the United States Postal Service since they assigned the street number. Not sure who's fault the 16 is though...I guess whoever named the streets. However, the street was named before the number was assigned and LONG before the building was built....so maybe we should blame someone else. I vote we blame Akilles....I mean after all he's not doing anything productive right now anyway.

OH WAIT! It's actually 1733 Sixteenth Street NORTHWEST. Something VERY Important in D.C. (if you want to get your mail on time) But NORTHWEST has NOTHING to do with Masonry. Mighty curious!

"In antiquity, even before Christianity, 12 was a perfect, complete number, so 13 indicated the beginning of a new cycle; from this it became a symbol of death. To death was added the idea of renewal - the end of one cycle and the beginning of another.

If you say so. I thought 7 was perfect, but I'll play along with your silly game....

Thirteen is used to end one cycle and begin another"

Yeah, you said that already. What's your point? What "cycle" is ending...what "cycle" is beginning?

And so, do we find the Number 13 associated with something starting ANEW? The 13 colonies???

????? You're telling this story. Are you saying it's significant that there were 13 colonies and not 12 or 74? I always thought it was just the way it worked out....kind of like why we now have 50 states and not 86....I never dreamed it was a Masonic conspiracy

Yes, it could have been the 42 villages, but NO, it WAS the 13 colonies.

INDEED!

And from that CONFIRMED 'coincidence' we have NUMEROUS occurences of the number 13 in America's Great Seal, truly the Mark of A New Beginning (even says so on the seal, two-fold, in plain sight, and in SYMBOLISM).

So if it had be 78 colonies, we's have NUMEROUS occurences of the number 78 in the Great Seal, etc. etc. Right?????

About the 33rd Degree Freemasons, the only way we can answer that TRUTHFULLY is by playing a game, or by getting a list published of all 33 degree Masons. Option Number 2 has been tried, and is not happening, unless a Mason requests and publishes it.

The Supreme Council publishes that information in it's Transactions. While it's not offered publicly for sale, it's no secret at all. Of course you'd have to get the Transactions of EVERY Supreme Council, because each SC is a sovereign body that has jurisdiction over it's own area only....

So the game we will play is, I list some 33 degree Freemasons, and then you llist some 33 degree Freemasons (who aren't Worshipful Masters right now).

Oh goodie! I love games. Let's play.

For Starters....Newt Gingrich is NOT a Freemason at all. Not sure about Colin Powell. It's possible that he could be a Prince Hall Mason, but I've never heard it. I don't mind writing to the Prince Hall Supreme Council and asking though, if you'd like me to. The Prince Hall Supreme Council is in Washington DC too, by the way, but NOT 13 blocks from the White House. I guess it's because that spot was already taken . .. .


The rest you list ARE Freemasons (no secret to that...several of them have had articles written about them in recent Masonic publications) although not all of them are 33rd Degree Masons. Helms is and Thurmond. The others might be but I'm not sure. ...and since I'm not sure, I'm sure that YOU'RE not sure....unless you got those names from the anti-Masonic site of lies like this ridiculous one:

www.acts2.com...

That silly site even calls Billy Graham a 33rd Degree Mason. The Rev. Dr. Graham is not even a MASON let alone a Scottish Rite Mason.


As for famous Freemasons....here's a really good list....from a Masonic site. There's also a 4-volume set of books called "10,000 Famous Freemasons" that was published some years ago. It's a bit out-dated in that there are many famous Freemasons who've joined since it was published, but it's a good book nonetheless.

You see, we aren't ashamed of our membership.

www.masonicinfo.com...

#1

Newt Gingrich, 33rd Degree Freemason
#2

Bob Dole, 33rd Degree Freemason
#3

Jack Kemp, 33rd Degree Freemason
#4

Storm Thurmond, 33rd Degree Freemason
#5

Colin Powell, 33rd Degree Freemason
#6

Jesse Helms, 33rd Degree Freemason
#7

Barry Goldwater, 33rd Degree Freemason

[edit on 28-3-2005 by senrak]

[edit on 28-3-2005 by senrak]

Originally posted by senrak

And so, do we find the Number 13 associated with something starting ANEW? The 13 colonies???

????? You're telling this story. Are you saying it's significant that there were 13 colonies and not 12 or 74? I always thought it was just the way it worked out....kind of like why we now have 50 states and not 86....I never dreamed it was a Masonic conspiracy

I don't think anything ever "just worked out" for Akilles. No such thing as coincidence. In his paranoid mind, EVERYTHING is the result of someone or something acting on behalf of a conspiracy.

I just don't get why he doesn't understand that 13 is not a number important to masons...

Nans Desmichels?? what be that?

A former member, who did quite a bit of extensive research into this particular group, and a search for her posts on it should prove far more enlightening than you're likely assuming. Unfortunately she also knowingly posted classified info (info that got many sites shut down) here as well, and we lost her then as a member. Her work on the Bilderbergers though, is quite impressive.

Originally posted by BlackGuardXIII
Why would the minister of education for Norwqy be invited? I have seen some meeting guest lists over the years, and recognized virtually every name...Bill Gates, Bush, Blair, Prince Charles, Mandela, Conrad Black, etc.
I just cant see why a Norwegian education minister would be there.

But she was. She was there for sure in 1999, maybe in other years too. They are brainwashing our children...
Kristin Clemet - Bilderberg Group - 1999

Sebat, might you be suffering from a memory disorder? I have responded to this thread in the past, and you have responded to me. I am still me. My question is, were you calling me a troll? Speaking of attempting to anger and making unsubstantiated claims, may I refer you back to you attempting to psychoanalyze me and me explaining to you that you are not qualified to make assertions in reference to my mental status, no matter how close to the truth you might be (I didn't suggest before that you might be close, that this is a new observation).

Originally posted by Thomas Crowne
Sebat, might you be suffering from a memory disorder? I have responded to this thread in the past, and you have responded to me. I am still me. My question is, were you calling me a troll?

Did I ever call you a troll directly? Did I ever say "Thomas Crowne is a troll"? So what are you asking me? I only said that people who make unsubstantiated claims and refuse to provide evidence of them are trolls. Is that not what a troll is?

Speaking of attempting to anger and making unsubstantiated claims, may I refer you back to you attempting to psychoanalyze me and me explaining to you that you are not qualified to make assertions in reference to my mental status, no matter how close to the truth you might be (I didn't suggest before that you might be close, that this is a new observation).

If you could find the thread it would help me remember. What exactly did I say? What was the subject? I think I might have an idea, I remember someone getting defensive about something I said, but I'm not sure. I don't really remember this... you sure it was me? And why are you trying to start a fight with me anyways?


[edit on 29-3-2005 by sebatwerk]

Reread the silly thread, Sebat.

Why can you not simply answer a simple question; that's all I asked. Shoot, man, I didn't think the question was that difficult!

Do not think I have lived on this planet this long without picking up on aversions, demurrings and inuendos. I have. Don't assume that because I have picked up on these, though, that it means I can find a decent barbour. Not since my last good one died at the young age of 94 years. How dare he.

Hmmm, 13 as a coincidence...

I suppose locating a building 13 blocks in the direction of 'Occult Authority' could be coincidence.

As could the buildings perfect alignment with the Washington Obelisk, but as you dudes have astutely pointed out, its not in VISIBLE sight! Well, they know its there, don't they? Right down the road?

Even standing inside the Lodge, looking South (ie. a LEADER of a group of men looking north), they would know they are facing both the White House and Obelisk dead on.

As for the Colonies. Yes, you know they very well have called it the "One Group of Cities", and then they could say "United" comes from that. But no, it is very important SYMBOLISM. America had its beginnings in 13, not by choice, or accident, but by design!

For example, the FLAG when folded, is folded 13 times! Again, no accident! Its all about the USA having its beginnings in the Number 13, not the 13 colonies... This is the same argument as saying 50 states is arbitrary! Its not! They could have ANY amount of states, ANY size. Very few have boundaries that are formed by nature, ie. true boundaries.

Ah, good old 13. "to get your answer look at the use of the number 13 in numerology (occult magic) mentioned above and in the Bible. Its all about rebellion, sin, disobiedence against God. "

7 is never called the perfect number, it is the mystical number, but to you thats only a SLIGHT oversight, isn't it?

Known Freemason Harry S. Truman, 33rd degree, 33rd president of the USA, became President exactly on cue to usher in a new era. If you count 13 periods of 13 years (using the amount of steps in the Pyramid, of course!) from the Declaration of Independence, you find yourself on July 4, 1945. Count 33 days. You find yourself on the most symbolic of an era, that one day could possibly be, the dropping of the Atomic Bomb on the 33 parallel, on Mission 13 (arbitrary!) by the Enola Gay.

Whats next, its a coincidence on what day George Washington was sworn in? As if it couldn't happen any day they want?
"Brother Washington became Worshipful Master on December 20, 1788, and was inaugurated President of the United States on April 30, 1789, thus becoming the first, and so far the only, Brother to be simultaneously President and Master of his Lodge."
OK, one is the day before the Winter Equinox (Master of his Lodge), the DARKEST day of the year, and who is receiving the light on that day, oh good Brother Washington.

Ok and the other, one day before May 1st (May day for the May Sons), the MOST important date in Occult sacrifice, and 'forcing the Spring' (ie. a new beginning). The Rite of Beltane, also called Roodmas (similar to Christmas, which was a few days after Washington's inauguration).

If you guys think EVERYTHING happens due to coincidence, all the power to you. I refuse to believe that possibility, and thus, am perceived by others to look 'where there is nothing'.

Edit: that last post isn't worth responding to. A lost cause....

[edit on 29-3-2005 by senrak]

Originally posted by Thomas Crowne
Reread the silly thread, Sebat.

Why can you not simply answer a simple question; that's all I asked. Shoot, man, I didn't think the question was that difficult!

What question of yours did I not answer? Did I call you a troll? No, I didn't. I still don't understand why you are asking this.

Do not think I have lived on this planet this long without picking up on aversions, demurrings and inuendos. I have. Don't assume that because I have picked up on these, though, that it means I can find a decent barbour. Not since my last good one died at the young age of 94 years. How dare he.

You lost me...

To play dumb, or not post at all, that is the question.

Originally posted by akilles
To play dumb, or not post at all, that is the question.

Who's playing dumb? I have no idea what he's talking about. And I also have no idea why you think you must take it upon yourself to insult me. I could just do like you when you're in a corner and just ignore the post altogether, so I don't see you having much room to talk.

I remember being told it was no longer the time or place to discuss those things, so I wouldn't say I have ignored anything.

Once discussions were no longer about opinion, and exploring a topic, but having my word judged for its worth, and linking to the words of others EXCLUSIVELY ("What web site gave you your opinion? Which Masonic author did you misinterpret? If you aren't in Masonry right now, how can you talk? If you are in Masonry, you are dishonorable for mentioning anything that IS factual and personal experience").

And it seems members of the most Symbolically Represented Organization in the world (more than any one country or company internationally) have no interest in their own symbolism. How unfortunate, but why keep others from discussing it?

Why suggest numerology is only important to me, when clearly MANY Masons in the past have found it equally important, and how can you deny the symbolism in the measurement systems, of temperature, and distance?