Capitalism

originally posted by: MadLad
a reply to: Fools

I love that view, that capitalism is the natural state of things. Trade has been the cornerstone of peace and prosperity between individuals and communities since time immemorial.

thank you

originally posted by: Fools

originally posted by: PublicOpinion
a reply to: Fools

It is not, it is a natural state of things.

How natural is it exactly? Natural like... err.. say promiscuity, rape and abuse?

So what? The natural state of things is decay with a strong tendency towards entropy. I suppose we should stop brushing teeth and head straight for the cellar, light a candle and just "let it be for good"?

Forget the betterment of humanity, this is about the betterment of your saving accounts. I get it, just be frank about it?

If that is the way you view the natural order of things then so it is. And one might say that all communist/socialist nations have done alot more in the terms of rape and abuse than those that did not.

I already am fairly sure of your response: Real communism has never been tried....

Here's another quick question: did communism operate under capitalism as well?

Hint: the answer isn't "no" and thus your whole response misses the point. But yes, communism is a very old concept. A few nordic tribes with their thing thing come to mind, various peasant uprisings during the renaissance and the anarcho-syndicalists during the Spanish civil war.
Communism doesn't oppose capitalism and Marx called his book "The Capital" for a reason. Go and figure?

originally posted by: PublicOpinion

originally posted by: Fools

originally posted by: PublicOpinion
a reply to: Fools

It is not, it is a natural state of things.

How natural is it exactly? Natural like... err.. say promiscuity, rape and abuse?

So what? The natural state of things is decay with a strong tendency towards entropy. I suppose we should stop brushing teeth and head straight for the cellar, light a candle and just "let it be for good"?

Forget the betterment of humanity, this is about the betterment of your saving accounts. I get it, just be frank about it?

If that is the way you view the natural order of things then so it is. And one might say that all communist/socialist nations have done alot more in the terms of rape and abuse than those that did not.

I already am fairly sure of your response: Real communism has never been tried....

Here's another quick question: did communism operate under capitalism as well?

Hint: the answer isn't "no" and thus your whole response misses the point. But yes, communism is a very old concept. A few nordic tribes with their thing thing come to mind, various peasant uprisings during the renaissance and the anarcho-syndicalists during the Spanish civil war.
Communism doesn't oppose capitalism and Marx called his book "The Capital" for a reason. Go and figure?

You are so incorrect. In fact I think in my OP I stated clearly that without Capitalism socialism cannot exist. It is sort of like saying that without the meat of the zebra the lion cannot exist. Do you understand that?

Socialism is "unnatural". It only lasts as long as the energy supplied by capitalism allows it to exist. Once that energy has been drained, the it dies.

a reply to: Fools

Capitalism cannot exist without socialism, aka quantitative easing. I have no idea in which universe you're at, but I 'd reckon it might be one that thrives on alternative facts.

Keep talking about that energy though, I could use some for my third eye. It died!

originally posted by: PublicOpinion
a reply to: Fools

Capitalism cannot exist without socialism, aka quantitative easing. I have no idea in which universe you're at, but I 'd reckon it might be one that thrives on alternative facts.

Keep talking about that energy though, I could use some for my third eye. It died!

Actually it can and has. Of course there were other systems such as mercantilism and so on that have existed but the over arching system is capitalism. I am glad you disagree, maybe that might make you look a little further into your own claims.

Capitalism itself is just a word that was created to explain the human interaction with the markets it creates and uses. Markets and trade were here long before anyone ever thought to make the study of it a university degree.

a reply to: Fools

So you are talking about the medieval concept of a marketplace with no regards for actual financial markets and the crisis in 2008. That's refreshing! Could you show me the way to my place in line for the bonfire now?

originally posted by: PublicOpinion
a reply to: Fools

So you are talking about the medieval concept of a marketplace with no regards for actual financial markets and the crisis in 2008. That's refreshing! Could you show me the way to my place in line for the bonfire now?

You are REALLY misunderstanding what I am saying. Do you know what over-arching means? Do you understand that there are natural laws that exist without our input? I am guessing not.

a reply to: Fools

Perhaps we should approach economics the way some approaches morality "what would Jesus Do?"

originally posted by: olaru12
a reply to: Fools

Perhaps we should approach economics the way some approaches morality "what would Jesus Do?"

My point is that without water there would be no fish. Capice?

originally posted by: projectvxn
a reply to: rickymouse

Scaling is the issue in nearly all economic systems.

True. For tens of thousands of years, living in small tribes, humans and proto-humans hunted and gathered and contributed to the tribe as a whole, making sure that everyone's individual needs were met. Men and women had different tasks, but everybody did something to contribute, and received something in return. That's not capitalism, yet it allowed humanity to thrive.

originally posted by: olaru12
a reply to: Fools

Perhaps we should approach economics the way some approaches morality "What would Jesus Do?"

Jesus lived with a small association of people -- 12 apostles and who knows exactly how many other random hangers-on -- and their primary source of income was sorcery. Casting demons out of sick people to cure them. In return, they usually got food or a place to stay, which was divided among the followers. Yeah, Jesus got the occasional foot massage with rare and expensive oils. Why not sell it and give it to the poor, his apostles asked? Jesus said because the poor will always be with us, but you'll only have me around for a short time.

So even in that kind of communistic community, the head guy still gets the gravy.

a reply to: Fools

My point is that without water there would be no fish. Capice?

If it wasn't for the destructive power of capitalism there would be no need for unions and or/ socialism. And I don't disagree.

So what?

originally posted by: Blue Shift

originally posted by: projectvxn
a reply to: rickymouse

Scaling is the issue in nearly all economic systems.

True. For tens of thousands of years, living in small tribes, humans and proto-humans hunted and gathered and contributed to the tribe as a whole, making sure that everyone's individual needs were met. Men and women had different tasks, but everybody did something to contribute, and received something in return. That's not capitalism, yet it allowed humanity to thrive.

And I assume you also think that there was no trade with these individuals? Like, I will give you 20 loaves of bread (or whatever) for that ivory necklace??? Nah, that never happened. I am not sure what to say to the hippies of this world.

originally posted by: PublicOpinion
a reply to: Fools

My point is that without water there would be no fish. Capice?

If it wasn't for the destructive power of capitalism there would be no need for unions and or/ socialism. And I don't disagree.

So what?

But of course, primitive people always live in peace and harmony. Of course they do. They never fight or anything. They just give of themselves whatever their neighbors need all the time.

I have a bridge to sell....

originally posted by: Fools
Mods please move this if it belongs somewhere else.

I placed this under Political Ideology as it seems that many people actually think that Capitalism is a political ideology.

It is not, it is a natural state of things. A term that was invented to describe the natural state of human commerce. Human commerce includes, buying, selling, trading, and owning. The natural state of human commerce is Capitalism. This is because human beings value things, it's true, we value objects. I am not sure if you ever noticed that before, but you probably should have by now.

Capitalism is this natural human need to value things. This human need to eat, or build shelter, or build a better shelter and eat rare and more expensive foodstuffs. And you "socialist" folks, you really believe that is unfair, you really believe that you can control it so that everyone that exists receives all things they want or need in equal terms.

Natural things do not understand equality nor will they allow abstract human thinking to control them. Socialists will no more control capitalism than a weatherman will control a hurricane. You can try, you can do all you can to destroy a natural system but you will always fail and probably make things worse than they were before. Of course until once again capitalism will be allowed to flow where it wants to flow. Then things will get better. They always do.


Capitalism knows no color, gender, race, or boundaries. It just exists.

This kind of contradicts sociological and anthropological understandings of hunter gatherer societies. Coming from Australia, Australian aboriginals are known to have been a communal society. Food and resources were shared within the tribe and tools were often left where they last used them to be used by anyone as needed. They had no concept of individual ownership. Trade occurred between tribes, such as trading ochre for salted eels, but this was then distributed and used as needed within the tribe. In fact, to this day, indigenous Australians, particularly those in remote areas, struggle to integrate with modern capitalist Australian society.

Here is a snippet from a news article from the Sydney Morning Herald to give you an idea of the attitudes even today.

Ian Hamm is a Yorta Yorta man and chairman of the Indigenous financial literacy body the First Nations Foundation. He says Indigenous people have a unique cultural attitude to money.

“Aboriginal people think of ourselves as a collective," Hamm explained to my colleague Natassia Chrysanthos this week. "That has many strengths but also comes with obligations. One of those is that you share what you have."

The researchers found the practice of “humbugging”, or asking family for money, is common in Indigenous communities. This could be a source of support, but also a drag on an individual's desires to get ahead financially.

www.smh.com.au...

Aboriginal society is spiritually regulated by Laws and Taboo's that are 10's of thousands of years in the making. Transgressing these tribal laws could in some cases be punishable by death and in some remote communities, this still happens. Their society is entirely structured towards a symbiotic existence with the land.

Here is an explanation of hunter gatherer societies in general from a sociological perspective.

HUNTER-GATHERER SOCIETY

The hunter-gatherer society is the earliest form of human society and still persisting to some extent in remote regions of the world. The hunter-gatherer society had an economic base that rested on the use of the naturally occurring animal and plant resources of the environment. The hunter-gatherer society was egalitarian and non-hierarchical in nature. The hunter gatherer society does not practice agriculture or raise and herd animals. Social structure is usually egalitarian with little economic and gender inequality. Private property is minimal in hunter gatherer society. The hunter gatherer society is among the early societies believed to have had a tribal matriarchy. With increasing farming and the increasing contact hunter-gatherer society had with farmers, hunter-gatherer society population has steadily decreased.

sociologyindex.com...

a reply to: Fools

But of course, primitive people always live in peace and harmony. Of course they do. They never fight or anything. They just give of themselves whatever their neighbors need all the time.

I have a bridge to sell....

I'll take two then, ya know... civilized and modern people always live in peace and harmony.

Wait! They don't? Kinda surprising, innit? I thought capitalism is the blast and everything is ok?

originally posted by: Fools
And I assume you also think that there was no trade with these individuals? Like, I will give you 20 loaves of bread (or whatever) for that ivory necklace??? Nah, that never happened.

Not saying it didn't happen, but as for Capitalism being a natural and default way of the world, you're going to have to do a lot better.

I am not sure what to say to the hippies of this world.

Get a job? Cut your hair? Stop listening to that danged rock and roll music all the time? Get off my lawn?

Take your pick, old man.

originally posted by: PublicOpinion
a reply to: Fools

But of course, primitive people always live in peace and harmony. Of course they do. They never fight or anything. They just give of themselves whatever their neighbors need all the time.

I have a bridge to sell....

I'll take two then, ya know... civilized and modern people always live in peace and harmony.

Wait! They don't? Kinda surprising, innit? I thought capitalism is the blast and everything is ok?

You have a misunderstanding of the part about nature. Whether one party or individual gets "on top" of things, it is a natural issue. It does not matter what "laws" man imposes on the nature of things. Can we make hurricanes illegal? Sure we can, does that mean there will be no more hurricanes? Of course it doesn't. This is the same with our actual nature. You can litigate wealth to your heart can't litigate anymore but sooner, rather than later, an individual will create wealth for themselves if they can.

Socialism (pure type) will always lose. ALWAYS.

originally posted by: Blue Shift

originally posted by: Fools
And I assume you also think that there was no trade with these individuals? Like, I will give you 20 loaves of bread (or whatever) for that ivory necklace??? Nah, that never happened.

Not saying it didn't happen, but as for Capitalism being a natural and default way of the world, you're going to have to do a lot better.

I am not sure what to say to the hippies of this world.

Get a job? Cut your hair? Stop listening to that danged rock and roll music all the time? Get off my lawn?

Take your pick, old man.

Isn't at this day and age it kind of dumb to think culturally that someone is an "old" person? Thanks for this, it has me thinking about another post I should make. Going with the cultural flow is no longer "rock n roll" its actually tired and older than me.

a reply to: Fools

Whether one party or individual gets "on top" of things, it is a natural issue. It does not matter what "laws" man imposes on the nature of things

Newsflash: The Night of the Long Knives was just another natural selection issue.

Would you be so kind and put this crap in the mud-pit the next time you wanna play the idiots advocate?

Socialism (pure type) will always lose. ALWAYS.

Is that a prayer or a spell?