Here's What Happens When "Punching A Nazi" Is OK

Spoiler: nobody actually got punched. There wasn't any Nazi, or at least I don't think so. And it wasn't an incident instigated by a "progressive." But someone could have gone to jail, and it was an eye-opening example of discrimination by people with authority. It really made my blood boil.

Here's what happened:

I had to be in court yesterday for a traffic ticket. I live in a very rural area where "camo" is considered a color, everyone wears ball caps, and hunting season is almost a multi-week public holiday. Mossy Oak and Realtree are fashion statements here, lol. As I walked into the lobby outside the courtroom, I noticed two bailiffs having an argument with a man.

He was youngish, maybe 35, and dressed in a Mossy Oak shirt much like the one below with a t-shirt underneath, nice jeans, and tennis shoes. Pretty standard here, and the shirt was actually very nice.

T-shirt example (his was more shades of brown):



Being the nosy person that I am, I listened to what was going on for a minute. The bailiffs were telling the guy he couldn't go into the courtroom in that shirt. He asked why. They told him no camo allowed in the court. He told them he could take it off, but the shirt he had on underneath was short-sleeved (which is not allowed in court--how odd). They told him they'd find him another shirt but no way, no-how was he going into the courtroom in his nice Mossy Oak long-sleeved T. This went on in a circular fashion for a few minutes.

I peeked into the courtroom to see if the judge had arrived and things were starting. Saw a woman wearing a camo hoodie jacket in much the same print as the shirt of man who was getting hassled. Hmmn. I read the "what's not allowed" list by the courtroom doors. No short sleeves, no shorts, no caps...not a word about camo. Double hmmn.

When I came back out, the bailiffs were trying to get the guy to wear an inmate's jail shirt they'd brought up from the jail (interestingly, it had short sleeves.) He was getting quite upset. Not yelling or cursing, but obviously thoroughly pissed off. I went back into the court and sat down. Camo man never appeared.

As the docket list was read, anyone who didn't immediately stand up and say "here" had a warrant issued for them immediately. A couple of people showed up 5-10 minutes after their name was read and were arrested for failure to appear.

Camo man still didn't appear. Court went on for about an hour and a half, then the judge called a break. After a few minutes Camo man came in. When the break was about to end, the bailiff came and told him he had to leave the room, that he couldn't wear his camo shirt in the room. Camo man said he'd spoken to the judge during break and was told it was fine.

The bailiff called him a liar and proceeded to try to make him leave. Camo man refused, saying the judge had okayed it. Finally the bailiff (and the bailiffs are sheriff's deputies, btw) went and asked the judge-- who told him it was fine for camo man to wear camo in his court.

Mind you, through all this at least one other person wearing not just camo but the SAME KIND of camo had been sitting in the courtroom unmolested.

When camo man was called up to hear the charges, it turned out he was there for the exact same type of ticket I was there for--but he was fined twice as much.

So. This guy COULD have been arrested for failure to appear, because he wasn't allowed into the court for wearing something that WASN'T on the "unacceptable" list. He was denied the chance to speak to the prosecutor before his case was called, which every other person in the court was able to do. He was fined twice as much as me for the same thing. The bailiffs tried to make him go into court wearing inmates' clothes, which imo would have been very prejudicial. AND he had his whole day ruined by two jerks.

Why? I don't think it had anything to do with his shirt.

The problem was that Camo Man looked like a Nazi. He had a neck tattoo. He had gauges in his ears. He had a super-short, buzzed, Nazi-looking haircut. He had a "cocky" walk and a soldier's stance. He just looked like a Nazi to these two hicks. And because he looked like a Nazi, these fine upstanding sheriff's deputies decided to give him a hard time. Luckily he didn't yell at them or cuss them or he probably would've ended up in jail.

What was he in court for? A ticket for driving with an expired driver's license.





NOTE: When court was over, I searched him out and asked him, just in case I'd missed something, what happened, what started the whole situation etc. As it happens, I'd seen pretty much the entire incident. He went to walk into the courtroom, the bailiff barred his way and escorted him back to the lobby, he asked why, and that was about where I came in.

a reply to: riiver

I am not a fan of NAZI's (at all no matter were they are in the world) but that sound's completely unfair, the bailiffs were actually interfering in court proceeding's and should have been reprimanded severely for that.

HOWEVER, perhaps they KNOW this man, perhaps they had reason to be cautious and just perhaps?.

I worked in security for quite a few years and you get to know people, it is human nature and you have to watch yourself and follow anti discrimination practice but sometime's you just know.
Of course sometime's you are wrong as well and just maybe these deputy's were.

He looked like a Nazi, eh.

White male, between the ages of 18 and 35?

Yup... Welcome to the post PC world.

I don't approve of neck tattoos and strange piercings. I don't like d-bag haircuts, either... But that just means I wouldn't go out of my way to talk to that guy.

Clear case for discrimination.

a reply to: LABTECH767

Yeah, but sometimes, a t-shirt is just a t-shirt. Guy might have been scum of the earth. Guy might have been Al freakin' Capone, but on that particular day, he was there for a traffic ticket and nothing else. It's easy enough to determine that a t-shirt is just a t-shirt.

Right, I get that. Maybe they were familiar with him; he might have been in court 20 times in the past for meth charges for all I know. But the fact remains that they were barring him for going into court, risking him getting arrested for failure to appear (who knows, that might have been the agenda--maybe he's a bad guy who they don't have enough to charge with anything but would like to arrest anyway) etc. over a piece of clothing that was not on the "unacceptable" list. It just seems so wrong, even if he was a known criminal, y'know?

a reply to: riiver

Here's what I would have done in cammoman's place.

Have the deputies sign a statement saying they are denying him entry based on his cammo shirt. Include the names, date, and time and signatures of any witnesses. If they refuse to sign, just record them saying why he is being denied entry because of his shirt.

Once you have evidence, go home, change your shirt, and return. Be sure to explain to the judge why you are late and let him know you intend to press charges. After court, go to the DA and file charges of witness tampering, intimidation, and whatever else you can think of that would apply. I'd talk to a lawyer to find any and all little charges that could even tangentially apply. Keep raising a stink until the DA is forced to do his job and either take those guys to court or have them plead guilty to the charges and take a plea deal.

originally posted by: VictorVonDoom
a reply to: riiver

Here's what I would have done in cammoman's place.

Have the deputies sign a statement saying they are denying him entry based on his cammo shirt. Include the names, date, and time and signatures of any witnesses. If they refuse to sign, just record them saying why he is being denied entry because of his shirt.

Once you have evidence, go home, change your shirt, and return. Be sure to explain to the judge why you are late and let him know you intend to press charges. After court, go to the DA and file charges of witness tampering, intimidation, and whatever else you can think of that would apply. I'd talk to a lawyer to find any and all little charges that could even tangentially apply. Keep raising a stink until the DA is forced to do his job and either take those guys to court or have them plead guilty to the charges and take a plea deal.

Sadly, after talking to him I don't think he was smart enough to think of any of that. It would have been brilliant if he had though.

a reply to: riiver

People will always be prejudiced, and will always judge each other first based on looks.

Try as we may, even in the year 2019, we can't do otherwise.

We are hard wired to be prejudiced.

It is a survival strategy that our self-serving genes use to perpetuate themselves.

This poor (alleged, not even proven) Nazi was just another victim. Poor dude.

But that won't stop it from happening again and again, FOREVER.

Human condition.

I've only read the OP here so it may have already been covered but judges have full control how their courtrooms are run but I've never heard of a dress code before. Granted, you need to be clothed to enter but that's a given. The issue was allowing the girl into courtroom wearing camouflage while harassing the man, obviously. It was wrong and it's that simple.

Devil's advocate : This man is likely a habitual offender (explains the larger fine) and the bailiffs (likely police or county deputies) have dealt with him many times. It's tough to swallow grudges especially when you add in the revolving door "justice" system. Can't blame them for blowing off steam. I'd love to think I'm above doing such things but I'm not sure I could resist the temptation.

On a side note, you should always dress for court as you would for church. It's just a courtesy thing but I strongly believe in showing respect whenever you can. Also, why were you in court for a traffic ticket? I've never heard of anyone needing to appear in court for a traffic citation unless they planned on contesting it. Just pay the fine, get your receipt, and save everyone some trouble and money in the process. *Shakes head*

Edit Just looked at your other thread and saw where you couldn't pay it without an appearance in court. I'm just below you in Arkansas and that's just crazy to me.

Hey riiver I've been commenting on your previous court thread. I know what you witnessed is messed up, I've seen worse myself, especially if it could possibly result in an add on charge. (Failure to appear)

But unfortunately over the years I've realized people tend to forget or most likely do not care they are in the presence of a judge. It is one of the highest elected positions in each county and people should naturally have respect for the court.

When you show up wearing camo to court you should except to be given a hard time. I find it very hard to believe anybody would think it's ok to wear a camo shirt to court.

The proper attire is a collared shirt or better yet a button up with a tie and cackies. I keep a whole outfit in my closet just for court. I've never worn it anywhere else lol.

As far as them hassling 1 and not the other, do some time in jail and you will be in for a real eye opener. It is normal practice and honestly it's to be expected.

a reply to: 772STi

When you show up wearing camo to court you should except to be given a hard time. I find it very hard to believe anybody would think it's ok to wear a camo shirt to court.

Don't take this wrong--I don't intend it to be snarky--but you've obviously never been to court in rural southwest Missouri. Most people wear jeans and t-shirts. Occasionally you'll see men in button-down shirts, but when you do they're often plaid flannel work shirts. If someone is dressed up, they're probably someone who works for the court system. Actually camo guy was one of the better-dressed people there, I kid you not.

a reply to: riiver

I would never take offense to that, your %100 right. I've never been to court in rural Southwest Missouri. If I ever move there I'm sure I will . I have been to court many times in South Florida and have seen the dumbest of all Americans. =Florduh

If you say that camo attire is normal in Missouri I will take your word for it without question. But I will tell you that singling a person out in the criminal justice is normal please take my work for it. I have done county and prison time and trust me it's the norm.

a reply to: a325nt

Never heard of a dbag haircut.

a reply to: riiver

Maybe they were FASHION POLICE.

a reply to: acrux

Lol. They need to step it up if they were.

To you and you alone he looked like a Nazi. In your mind, that is what a Nazi looks like. You don't know what other people think a Nazi looks like.

You are not a mind reader. You don't know what the bailiffs were thinking about his fashion sense.

a reply to: curme

Actually I didn't think he looked like a Nazi; he didn't have a German uniform of any kind on. That was a reference to how the past couple years everything certain people find offensive is suddenly "Nazi." I thought he looked like a dude in a camo shirt.

However, the fact remains that they (the bailiffs) took such issue with how he looked that they tried to keep him out of court for a bogus reason--they flatly LIED and said camo wasn't allowed in court, when it wasn't listed on the list of "unacceptable" clothes and the judge himself had no issue with it. I saw this and heard it with my own ears and eyes. So call it what you want, but it's still and example of what happens when "it's ok to punch a Nazi" or in plain English, it's ok to oppress in whatever way someone who you don't like the look of.

originally posted by: Anathros
I've only read the OP here so it may have already been covered but judges have full control how their courtrooms are run but I've never heard of a dress code before.

Most courts I'm aware of have dress codes. I showed up for jury duty once in a Big Johnson t-shirt (I don't dress up unless I'm being paid to or someone I actually care about is having a function), it was clean, no holes, looked good... encountered deputy dipsnip who gave me the song and dance, so I had to return to my truck and throw on a western shirt I kept behind the seat in a duffel for emergency reasons. I decided on that day that I wasn't going to be wasting any of my time (certainly not at the pathetic rate they paid) serving on that jury. I stared holes into the defendant from the moment they entered the court. Within 10 minutes the dude was fidgeting and kept looking at me. At 15 minutes he started whispering to his lawyer, who looked over at me and saw I was staring at his client with a scowl. At 20 minutes I had the defendant and his lawyer constantly looking over at me with concern. Without ever being asked a single question I was among the first group of jurors in the pool released from the courtroom... the first juror number the defense called out to be sent home, in fact. Problem solved, haven't been inside a courtroom in the 20 years since.