Court order for fingerprinting...for a TRAFFIC ticket?

I live in rural Missouri. Last month I got stopped by a highway patrol because the light above my license plate was out. I got a ticket for driving with an expired license (I have a 6-year license and just spaced off the renewal date.) There was no option to pay the fine before court (usually you can just pay the ticket, and if you do then no court appearance needed) so I got my license renewed and showed up in court yesterday to see how much the fine was going to be.

As I was waiting in line to talk to the prosecuting attorney (that's how it's usually done here; you talk to the prosecutor, tell him why you did whatever you did, and he decides then whether to ask for the full fine, part of it, drop the charge, or whatever) a bailiff started calling people's names and handing them papers. As I got closer to the front of the line, I could hear that he was telling folks to go down to the sheriff's department after court and get fingerprinted. Nearly every person there, excluding the prisoners brought up from the jail, got one of these papers. I thought, "Wow, that's really weird; we must have a lot of bad folks here today..." Then he handed me, someone there for just a traffic ticket, the paper and told me to go get fingerprinted after court.

It was a court order for fingerprinting. I've attached the image but it's a bit blurry.



WHAT?

I thought fingerprints were only taken if you were arrested? I hadn't been arrested, just gotten a ticket for an expired--not revoked or suspended--license!

As court actually got going and the charges against people were read, it became obvious that about half the people there had minor drug charges--we may have legalized medical mj last year but fining people for possessing small amounts and sending them to drug court still funds the court system here, grr. But the majority of the other half were tickets for no insurance, expired tags, or expired driver's licenses. And all these people had to go get fingerprinted by the sheriff.

Moreover, from conversations I heard, it appears that every single time a person goes to court for a ticket they have to get fingerprinted again. Someone behind me in line was saying it was the fifth time they'd been fingerprinted in the last year and how many sets of fingerprints did they need. (Yeah I know, 5 tickets in a year doesn't say much for the person in question, but still.)

What the hell is going on with that?

I'm livid about this. I looked up the section of the law mentioned in the above paper, and I don't see anything about fingerprinting people who haven't been arrested. Has anyone else had this happen, explain what's going on, or how on earth this is ok? What's next, are we going to have to give a DNA swab for running a red light or having expired tags?

How Orwellian is that? I would consult an attorney.

a reply to: riiver

Depends on who's paying for it each time?

Is it going on your account and getting added onto your court charges? Check your balance and check if they are adding things onto it?

Ask who pays for these. Chances are taxpayer pays for all of it and it's billing fraud, just like medical billing fraud when they charge the same thing multiple times or order unnecessary tests.

If you think it's fishy, write in a tip to some major well-known journalist agency that does investigations. No local media. Anonymous tip off FBI.

And yeah, that's BS - I'd get myself locked up over making a scene over this. I can see it now.

a reply to: Metallicus

I think I'm going to. It really is Orwellian. I'm still so mad I'm nearly speechless.

And the thing that really pisses me off is that my fingerprints are already on file with the state-- first because I'm a massage therapist, and we have to be fingerprinted to get our license. And they're also in the police database because a long time ago I was arrested for failure to appear (which is a whole 'nother story about Missouri's screwy system for paying tickets.) Why do they need ANOTHER copy?

a reply to: Duderino

That's what I'm thinking. Court costs most places around here are generally about $50. In THIS court, court costs were like $120. I nearly had a heart attack. And the fines imposed on people were generally double or triple what they are in other local courts. (In the past I was victim advocate for a domestic violence shelter, so I've sat through LOTS and lots of court days.)

How else are we supposed to keep them mexicans from using your drivers license? Surely you do not mind the inconvenience.If you do not like the finger prints then we have an rfid we can offer.

a reply to: riiver

Hey!! I got all the way through this before I realized who had posted it! Well, it's a helluva thing, honestly. You know, this makes me realize something, you bringing this to our attention. Back in the day you always had the "sky is falling" guy, and everyone would shake their head at him and say, "oh, you're over-reacting, you're exaggerating, calm down!" Of course the mantra of the reactionary was always the same, "slippery slope, slippery slope, slippery slope". As it's beginning to reveal itself, however, it seems ol' Chicken Little was right all along. There are slipper slopes, and if you give authority an inch they'll take a mile (and everything contained in that mile to include your house and freedom).

To further the slipper slope angle, I think of the rather raucous threads we've been involved in here lately as they relate to several states (last count was VA, NY and NM) forwarding bills that allow for abortion up until the time of birth. I'm not trying to re-ignite that argument on this thread, but rather use it as an example of the slippery slope. For years pro-life individuals and organizations had been beating this very drum positing that the pro-abortion crowd was going to continue to want expansive rights until they were aborting women at 9 months, and what did everyone say in return, "oh, you're being ridiculous, you're being dramatic" etc. And it's not like this is ancient history, Trump made this very claim during a debate to which Hillary responded in kind as just stated.



Again, [snipped], I'm certainly not trying to hi-jack your thread with this, but rather just using it as a tangible and timely point in regards to the slippery slope that you may (or may not) now be facing. As you asked in your OP, what's next, DNA swabs? Well...maybe. Very possibly in fact, and it's no longer easy to dismiss such thoughts as those of a Chicken Little or reactionary because history is our teacher. Abraham Lincoln said, "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me."

George W. said,



But we all know what he meant. Point is [snipped], I'd do something about it (so long as you feel so inclined, you did make a thread about it and used some of the most salty language I've heard from you yet, so it's obviously gotten under your skin). This is a great forum to start because I would imagine we have some lawyers on here, I know we have many self-professed legal experts (I'm surprised your thread isn't getting a little more traction). Otherwise just reach out simply to some of the free legal avenues made available to us...the ACLU might be a good place to start (you're basically just looking to get educated at this phase, answering the questions; is this legal, why, and if not what recourse do I have).

I'll tell you, I am a complete psychopath, seriously. When something pisses me off and I feel is legitimately wrong, I get s**t changed. You'd be surprised how few of us there are out there that will make the phone call, set up the meeting, call the paper, publish the article, raise the complaint. Most are sedentary, and when you go up against authority you'll see how weak of a person they're used to dealing with by how quickly they dismiss you (laughingly). Then you just use that as fuel in your tank and keep hitting it and hitting it and hitting it until they, inevitably, acquiesce. Every...single...time.

Let me know, I'm curious about what you do. Oh, I PM'd you by the way. Check it out...

PS: I'm curious, is there a financial incentive? Do they charge for the fingerprinting (I wouldn't be surprised).

a reply to: riiver

I'm sorry that your going through that, I know it sucks, and really is crazy. But they do also fingerprint people even if they did not get arrested for the crime right away. Driving on a suspended is a crime and not in the same category as traffic tickets in most areas. The cop probably gave you a notice to appear which is basically the same thing as being arrested but they don't take you to jail. They gave you a break.

So yea as crazy as it is, it's normal. I'll tell you something really crazy/scary to think about. I was once in jail for a non violent stupid crime, and before they would release me the said I had to give a DNA sample before I could go. They actually had a list of crimes that required a DNA sample in the wall and mine wasn't on there. I had a misdemeanor and the list was all violent felonies. So I refused, and after sitting in a cell for a couple hours they let me go. It just goes to show they will use fear and whatever tactics they want to reach there goal. They never got my DNA though and never will.

originally posted by: Duderino
a reply to: riiver

Depends on who's paying for it each time?

Is it going on your account and getting added onto your court charges? Check your balance and check if they are adding things onto it?

Ask who pays for these. Chances are taxpayer pays for all of it and it's billing fraud, just like medical billing fraud when they charge the same thing multiple times or order unnecessary tests.

If you think it's fishy, write in a tip to some major well-known journalist agency that does investigations. No local media. Anonymous tip off FBI.

And yeah, that's BS - I'd get myself locked up over making a scene over this. I can see it now.

Whoa! You're a sneaky one...that's a devious spot. Billing fraud, hadn't even crossed my mind. We should be able to add people here so that we can follow them (their threads and comments). Definitely a good find on your part there...

a reply to: TheElectricPriest

Funny you should say that about the ACLU. I actually heard a story from another woman there that's prompted me to contact the ACLU on her behalf. Gonna keep it to myself till I know what's what, but it's a case of police overreach.

a reply to: 772STi

Well my thought--when I calmed down a little--was that the case might be something like that; that maybe it's a weird ticket-in-lieu-of-arrest thing, but if so the whole fingerprinting thing is pretty new. I'll have to look at my ticket and see (don't have it to hand atm) but I'm pretty sure it says citation and not notice to appear. When I get my hands on the ticket I'll post it.

Meanwhile, any other Missourians have this happen with tickets?

a reply to: riiver

Sounds very much like a scam of some kind.

originally posted by: riiver
a reply to: TheElectricPriest

Funny you should say that about the ACLU. I actually heard a story from another woman there that's prompted me to contact the ACLU on her behalf. Gonna keep it to myself till I know what's what, but it's a case of police overreach.

Well, I've never reached out personally to the ACLU, and I know that they're often a very controversial organization, but I would imagine they'd be a good place to start (again, if you choose to go forward, I would probably encourage you to start out as if on a fact-finding mission, calling around searching for who you ultimately want to talk with but may not necessarily know who that is yet).

I thought that both of the posters above me made excellent points as it relates to you case. Unfortunately the member who said that the summons to court was an order in lieu of arrest and therefore mandating fingerprinting made a lot of sense to me, and they may very well be right. Were they also fingerprinting people for just traffic violations, parking tickets, etc.?

Anyway, keep us informed, and you know I want to hear about the other case, but I'll leave that to your discretion...

And it's kinda off-topic, but probably the weirdest thing about the whole situation is this:

When I was told how much the fine would be, there was no talk of "If you haven't paid this by X date, then you'll have to come back to court on X other date," which is pretty standard here. Instead, they told me that if it wasn't paid within 30 days they'd tack on a $25 fee, and if it wasn't paid within 60 days, it would...go to collections.

What?

(In the past, I've seen people come back to court literally every month for 6 or 8 months while paying on fines.)

So, a bit puzzled, I asked, "So if I don't get it paid in 60 days--I'm unemployed at the moment and I don't know how on earth I'm going to pay it by then--they're not going to, like, come arrest me or something?" And they said, no, it would just go to collections.

That makes no sense at all to me.

a reply to: riiver

"Police overreach" lol. Welcome to America. First time I had my fingerprints taken was because I was walking next to someone suspected of graffiti. Yep. You're in the system like the rest of us. No escape.

originally posted by: sine.nomine
a reply to: riiver

"Police overreach" lol. Welcome to America. First time I had my fingerprints taken was because I was walking next to someone suspected of graffiti. Yep. You're in the system like the rest of us. No escape.

Do you think you are free just curiously? Many Americans still say they live in the land of the free and here in oz or the UK we are subjects with no freedoms yet when I read stories like yours and the op it gives the impression you have less freedoms than we do.

a reply to: hopenotfeariswhatweneed

I believe we have the foundation for freedom, but we've never achieved it. I think we have more opportunities for free speech, but even that is slipping away.

There is too much power in unelected government in the US. It robs the people of their power. When they realize this as a group, there will be blood. Hate to say it, but it's true. "We the people" have already lost power.

Thomas Jefferson was truly wise when saying "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

It's inevitable.

a reply to: sine.nomine

Yeah it seems the people are far too apathetic, makes me suspicious the water has been spiked with something.

originally posted by: hopenotfeariswhatweneed
a reply to: sine.nomine

Yeah it seems the people are far too apathetic, makes me suspicious the water has been spiked with something.

I know what you mean. That's why this slow burn of erasing history is scary. If the memory of what the US stands for is gone, they can get away with anything. It's a takeover. Don't mistake that for some grassroots racism BS movement.

originally posted by: sine.nomine
a reply to: riiver

"Police overreach" lol. Welcome to America. First time I had my fingerprints taken was because I was walking next to someone suspected of graffiti. Yep. You're in the system like the rest of us. No escape.

No, my reference to police overreach is something else--someone I spoke to at court who had a shocking story to tell and who needs to contact the ACLU or someone about it. If she doesn't, I'm going to on her behalf.