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OP/ED:Who is Organising these Spontaneous Popular Uprisings ?

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posted on Mar, 1 2005 @ 08:03 AM

Originally posted by John bull 1
But it's all going to end soon because just as the printing press saw the end of a theocratic Europe, Newspapers and pamphlets saw the end of absolute monarchies, and Television heralded in the political classes, so the Internet will kill them off and invest more power in us and then perhaps we really can have something close to democracy.

This is a really interesting topic JB and ironic to me that I happened to be researching the French Revolution for kicks and giggles anyway when I noticed this and read through it.

As your prior Orwell quote points out, it's all a cycle. As students of Weishaupt and the Bavarian Illuminati will be quick to further point out, it's even predictably cylclical. I'm particularly intrigued at this point by your observation of the Internet being used as a tool of the hoi polloi to kill off the old regime. That's as scary as it is exciting.

Are we not now in our own Reign of Terror?

Maybe not quite yet, but the hallmarks are present. Anecdotally, when all the big fish have been fried, (like Dan Rather and any number of politicians) as the counter revolutionaries expend energies on ineffective little Gannonfish trophies, then we can surely expect "the mob" to go after the "heads" of everything from science, to education, to entertainment...

It would be nice if we had better aim for particularly insideous and oppressive monopolistic concentrations of wealth and power, but the hoi polloi are actually defending them now in what the analyst Thomas Frank has identified as a French Revolution in Reverse... and this speaks directly to many of your prior observations of the string pullers behind these spontaneous uprisings.

I suppose my caution here is in not underestimating the depths of the revolution (or rather in overestimating the mob and it's mental stability). Though the charge may be for "democracy" as you point out or "freedom" or "liberty" or whatever the day's mantra may be, the lower echelons of society are now intrinsically tied to the upper via the most sophisticated manipulation by priests and aristocracy perhaps ever seen in history.

Is the cycle about to be broken? Will the middle finally be destroyed? I fear so. I truly do.

posted on Mar, 1 2005 @ 11:15 AM
Now, i am going to try present as much evidence of what I stated as i can possibly collect, and see if my own assertion is true, beginning with the following.

The following is an excerpt from an article by Brian Becker, one of the founders of A.N.S.W.E.R INTERNATIONAL, and which was covering a meeting in Cuba by more than 100 Marxist, communist, socialist and progressive parties which sent their representatives to Cuba in 1997, to discuss and asses the world situation. This is a reprint from the November 6, 1997 issue of Workers World newspaper.

Some people believe that A.N.S.W.E.R INTERNATIONAL has no ulterior motive and it is just an anti-war movement, but the facts show a different picture of what this organization is, and what it's goals are.

Now, what is important about this meeting is that essentially all these groups agree with the Marxist and Leninist ideology, which history proved to have brought more poverty and oppression against the poor and working classes.

"Comrade Fidel Castro asserts that the preservation of socialist values is of decisive importance. We could not agree more," said the WWP statement. "Every reactionary historical epoch, which is always proclaimed as a crowning and enduring achievement by the ruling classes, gives way to a new, tremendous surge forward of revolutionary struggle.

"But it is crucial that revolutionaries fight tooth and nail for their values, their principles and the revolutionary conceptions put forward by Marxism and Leninism."

[The writer attended the conference and presented WWP's position paper.]

Excerpted from.

Many anti-war groups claim that even thou their goal is for the implementations of the same ideals of Marxism and Leninism, that these ideologies have changed for the betterment of the people, and they are the only anwser to assure the world classes that they will be represented. Pretty much the same way that they tried to sell to the people these same ideals in the past.

Even if we somehow forget what Lenin and Marx actually did to their countries and their people, we just have to look at the dictatorships that exist today, and are following these same ideals to the letter to see that the oppression against the working classes by these regimes is a lot worse than anything that capitalism has done.

These groups who they themselves claim that their goals are to follow those same ideals that Lenin and Marx had, are only giving to the world their assurance that the methods that they will use to achieve these goals have changed, but how can it change when they are following the ideals of two of the worst dictators the world has seen, which has also spawned the worse dictatorships that exist even today?

Here is another excerpt from the GreenLeft party, which states the goals from both the socialist and communist parties.

The collapse of Eastern Europe has caused the SACP to rethink many of its frameworks. This, says Suttner, has implications for all Marxists. “I think we are moving towards a conception that the socialist project is not the property of the Communist Party alone; that its success in South Africa is dependent on the broadest range of left forces unifying and using their strength to advance democracy in such a way that the conditions for socialism are created.”

Excerpted from.

Now, the following is a link to one of the sites of the Workers Party movement. The title of this link is "Index to
Bolsheviks and War [1985]
Lessons for today's anti-war movement"

Here is an exerpt from the above link.

The anti-war struggles of the past in the U.S. have not always been mere protest movements of a passive character composed mainly of middle class elements and the youth. Those earlier struggles against wars of U.S. imperialism were altogether different, particularly the movement against the first imperialist world war of 1914-1918.

The truth of the matter is that at that time the struggles had mainly a working class and socialist character. Opposition to the war took on many forms and was often militant in character resorting to direct action and armed resistance. Opposition to the draft was widespread, and took on massive proportions in many of the cities of the U.S.

I wonder were so many people from these same forums take the idea of a new revolution in the US.....

Another anti-war group, which was formed by members of the Revolutionary Communist Party, USA (RCP) goes by the name of "Not in Our Name."

Here is an excerpt from Wikipedia about both groups.

Revolutionary Communist Party, USA
The Revolutionary Communist Party, USA (RCP, USA), known originally as the Revolutionary Union, is a revolutionary Maoist organization that was formed in 1975. The RCP states that U.S. imperialism will never peacefully change. They believe that the only way for the oppressed masses to ever liberate themselves is through waging a people's war, and building a new socialist society on the ashes of capitalism.

Excerpted from.
Revolutionary Communist Party, USA

Not in Our Name
Not in Our Name (NION) is a United States organization founded on March 23, 2002, in order to resist the U.S. government's course in the wake of the September 11, 2001 Terrorist Attacks.

Role in the anti-war movement
In certain ways, the founding of NION parallels that of ANSWER. ANSWER was founded on the eve of the U.S. invasion of Afghanistan, largely by members of the Workers World Party, with which it maintains connections so strong as to be widely considered a front group. NION was founded six months later, largely by members of the Revolutionary Communist Party (RCP), which continues to be prominent among its leadership.

Excerpted from.
Not in Our Name

One of the statements which all of these groups keep saying, and telling other anti-war protesters is that the US has no enemies at all, but we can see that this is not true according to the goals many of these same groups proclaim to be after, which is the dissolution of the US government and capitalism not only on the US, but the world.

Derrick Thomas, a 22-year-old student and former U.S. soldier, said, "This is my first protest action. Seeing U.S. policy from the inside, I can tell you that there is no reason to go to war with Iraq. There is no threat anywhere in the world to the U.S."

Excerpted from.

Yet, we can see this is not true, because these same groups are proclaiming themselves enemies of capitalism and the United States, and so do all those regimes which are following the Marxist-Leninist doctrines.

Another idea often debated by those adherents to the Marxist-Leninist doctrines is the following.

"There's nothing wrong with socialism. Much of Europe is socialist. Much of Western Europe has socialist parties that have democratic roots going back to before the beginning of the 20th century." This is how Michael Powell, New York bureau chief of the Washington Post, tried to explain why he failed to note in an April 17 puff piece about anti-war organizer Leslie Cagan that she is a co-chair of a group called the "Committees of Correspondence for Democracy and Socialism."

But he left out something even more important — that the Committees of Correspondence for Democracy and Socialism (CCDS) is an offshoot of the old Moscow-controlled Communist Party USA (CPUSA). "I call her a leftist," Powell protested, as if that were an accurate and complete characterization of Cagan's ideology.

Powell, a reporter for the paper that broke open the Watergate scandal, apparently could not find it within his power or ability to reveal that Cagan is a co-chair of a group dominated by former veteran CPUSA members such as Angela Davis. The CCDS Web site refers to the Communist Manifesto as a "stirring document" that is relevant today.

Excerpted from.

According to Senator Barbara Boxer (D);

"It's a new day. Communism is dead. It's even dead in Cuba."

It would most certainly be a surprise to all the communist regimes that still exist today to hear her say this, as they are alive and well despite the claim of this Democrat Senator.

Let's see if this is true even in the United States.

Keynote Speech at One PLP May Day Event in New York City


There is good news and bad news:

The bad news is that capitalism is still here. Class struggle is hardly on the radar screen for now, and workers still hold very dangerous illusions about reform.

The good news is that communist ideas and the Progressive Labor Party are alive and well and we are slowly, but surely, growing both in the United States and inter-nationally.
But again – there is good news –there is opportunity: The world-wide upsurge of anti-warsentiment contain the seeds of revolutionary growth and ofa new and improved communist movement.

Excerpted from.
Endless Imperialist Wars, Fascist/Racist Terror,Jobless ‘Recovery,’ Debacle in Iraq and the Fight to Rebuild a Mass Revolutionary International Communist Movement

The name that i gave to the link above cannot be seen normally on the link i gave, unless you try to copy the white part in the first page where the word "INTERNATIONAL" can be found on the top.

We can see how dead communism is....

The above excerpts only points to the goal of such groups as ANSWER INTERNATIONAL and other anti-war groups have in mind, but in itself these articles show no proof that any government is backing any of these groups. For that we will have to look at what former Russian military have to say about this, and even what generals from the PLA of China have said about this same topic, and the ways in which they say they must achieve the goal of making China the new and only superpower.

China Threat Brief - Overview

“Whom does the Communist Party of China
regard as its international archenemy? It is the
United States.” From a 1993 report of senior PLA officers and high-level diplomats
“Yang wei zhang hua (Use the West for China’s
purposes).” Mao Tze Tung

“(As for the United States) for a relatively long time it will be absolutely necessary that we quietly nurse our sense of vengeance…. We must conceal our abilities and bide our time.” (This is, in many ways, classical Chinese thinking. In the Chinese “Seven Military Classics,” from ancient times to present, China has accommodated an enemy if it was perceived that it could overpower it.) LTG Mi Zhenyu, Vice Commandant Academy of Military Sciences, Peking, 1996

Excerpted from.

BEIJING—In 1996, colonels Qiao Liang and Wang Xiangsui were in Fujian province for military exercises aimed at threatening the island of Taiwan. As Chinese M9 intermediate-range missiles splashed into waters off two main southern Taiwanese ports, the United States dispatched two aircraft carrier battle groups to the region.

Like most Chinese officers, the colonels were furious at the U.S. move, seeing it as another sign of American interference in China's internal affairs. But to Qiao and Wang, the first crisis in the Taiwan Strait was also a lesson.

"We realized that if China's military was to face off against the United States, we would not be sufficient," said Wang, an air force colonel in the Guangzhou military district's political department. "So we realized that China needs a new strategy to right the balance of power."
Among their sometimes creative and sometimes shocking proposals for dealing with a powerful adversary are terrorism, drug trafficking, environmental degradation and computer virus propagation. The authors include a flow chart of 24 different types of war and argue that the more complicated the combination -- for example, terrorism plus a media war plus a financial war -- the better the results. From that perspective, "Unrestricted War" marries the Chinese classic, "The Art of War" by Sun Tzu, with modern military technology and economic globalization.

Excerpted from.

The following is an excerpt from a student of the Canadian Forces College, about whether or not China is a threat to the west. i am excerpting only the introduction of the paper.

The aim of this paper is to demonstrate that China's economic and military transformation, under the current Communist regime, has the potential to seriously threaten the future security of Canada and the West. The paper first looks at the economic reforms that have radically changed the Chinese economy. Then, the paper presents the significant changes that have taken place concerning military strategy, equipment modernization and power projection capability. The strategic view and policies of Canada and the US are discussed in light of these changes and other recent incidents. The paper then presents the argument that there are three potential problem areas in which China could possibly threaten the West. The paper concludes by noting that China is a Communist country that is dissatisfied with its status in the world and that the West must not be naive to its intentions and ambitions.

Excerpted from.

China is not the only country which has found that in order to fight against the west they must use these sort of covert tactics. The Russians are not that far behind.

I would like to ask about Czechoslovak communist Army General and member of the Czechoslovak Defense Council, Jan Sejna, who defected to the United States in 1968. Sejna defected before Brezhnev’s minions in Czechoslovakia had chance to arrest him for warning then Secretary General of the CP of Czechoslovakia Alexander Dubcek about a Russian-led invasion. Sejna says in his book We Will Bury You that he had firsthand knowledge of the Soviet long-range plan to stage a false collapse of the communist Warsaw Pact alliance in order to disarm America and NATO. Do you agree that this is what happened in the “former” bloc countries?

I don't know what the collapse of communism looks like from the American point of view, but from the painful experience of the citizens of all the post-communist countries the collapse of communism is a pure fiction. Communists and their communist pyramid of power remain untouched. From the self-invited owners of the state wealth, that is from communists and cadres of the communist Gestapo STB, officers of the communist SS "People's Militia" and other comparable criminals, there turned out to be new lawful owners of everything that was of any value in these "former" communist countries – and it was done through a fraudulent privatization process.

The communists are doing everything possible to disarm the West and at the same time they are making sure that their own power and military strength remain untouched. From this position communists can dictate to the West their evil conception of a world communist order. The West can accept this the easy way or the hard way.

Excerpted from.

Time and again high ranking Russian officials say the same thing. here is another example written by Dr. Dennis R. Papazian, a professor of Soviet history.

More recently, Anatoliy Golitsyn, a Soviet defector of high status, has suggested that the Soviet Union is capable of disinformation on such a massive scale that even the Borkenau system is no longer viable.2 In a book first published in 1984, and of necessity written before then, Golitsyn argues that the leadership of the whole Communist bloc came to an agreement in 1958 in which it established a long range program, a master plan, which it would realize through a large scale deception of the West, a monumental scam.
The final phase of the master plan, according to Golitsyn, is a disinformation and deception campaign of such magnitude that it would be "beyond the imagination of Marx, or the practical reach of Lenin, and unthinkable to Stalin. Among such previously unthinkable stratagems are the introduction of false liberalization in Eastern Europe and, probably, the Soviet Union, and the exhibition of spurious independence on the part of the regimes in Romania, Czechoslovakia, and Poland."7 "

Excerpted from.

---edited for errors---

[edit on 1-3-2005 by Muaddib]

posted on Mar, 1 2005 @ 11:29 AM
I guess we can all see how dead communism is, and how they actually use the media, terrorism and other covert tactics against the west, and in general against the United States.

posted on Mar, 1 2005 @ 11:33 AM

Originally posted by rapier28

It's public knowledge that the US has a tendency of funding dissident groups, which is ironic since there tend to be minorities.

Really? would you care to give examples of these "dissident minorities which the US has a tendency of funding"?....

posted on Mar, 1 2005 @ 12:36 PM

What's your point ?

What is the assertion you're trying to make and why is it relevant to this topic ?

I'll tell you what I think. I think you've had all this stuff saved somewhere on a notepad document and my unfortunate thread has given you the best excuse to use it so far.

I accept you point about proof that various US aid packages are going to fund these opposition groups in countries like Cuba, and Iran is difficult to find. It's covert !!

I'll be totally honest and say I didn't read all of you main post. You lost me and I didn't think it was relevant to the topic in hand.

I actually thought it was worse than irrelevant, I thought it was diversionary.

[edit on 1-3-2005 by John bull 1]

posted on Mar, 1 2005 @ 12:47 PM

Originally posted by John bull 1

I actually thought it was worse than irrelevant, I thought it was diversionary.

Great line. Can I steal it?

FYI - Although such interventions are covert, there are some proofs and some charges too.

U.S. Aid Used to Topple Governments

The US government quietly spends millions of dollars supporting anti-Castro dissidents and seeking to topple governments in other countries. The money is distributed through the U.S.-financed National Endowment for Democracy (NED) and USAID. Hundreds of thousands in cash go directly to individuals. NED is alleged to have supported groups opposed to Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez. m

The U.S. government has been quietly sending hundreds of thousands of dollars to activists seeking to undermine President Fidel Castro's one-party state, according to documents and interviews.

The cash assistance is being channeled through the U.S.-financed National Endowment for Democracy (NED) and pays more than two dozen freelance writers for a Miami-based Web site that posts articles critical of the Cuban government. ...The cash also supports opposition figures, human-rights activists, and political prisoners and their families...

The cash payments comprise only a small part of President Bush's intensified campaign to squeeze the Castro regime through the tightening of trade sanctions and increased material support for opposition activists. Yet even some supporters of Bush's approach say that providing cash to dissidents gives ammunition to Cuban officials who denounce the opposition as "mercenaries" for the U.S.

Christopher Sabatini, NED's director for Latin America and the Caribbean, argued the payouts to Cubans reflect the organization's support for democracy in many nations.

Since 2000, the NED has allocated about $4.9 million to its Cuba program, financing about a dozen groups annually. ...Sabatini said about 20 percent of the NED's assistance to Cuba reaches the island in cash, primarily to support the work, training and travel of activists. The NED's Cuba budget is scheduled to double in the next fiscal year to about $2 million.

Two of the primary Cuba-related groups handling the NED's cash payments are CubaNet, a Florida-based Web site that publishes the work of freelancers, and the Center for a Free Cuba, a Washington group led by anti-Castro activist Frank Calzon.

The two groups also receive USAID funding. Calzon's organization has taken in more than $5 million in recent years and CubaNet more than $1.3 million, according to USAID figures.


NED already is embroiled in a dispute over its alleged support for groups opposed to Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez, a fiery populist increasingly at odds with the United States. During the run-up to last year's presidential recall referendum in Venezuela, Chavez charged that NED-financed groups were conspiring with the Bush administration to defeat him.

....Mustn't forget the School of the Americas either, or the new ones in Thailand etc. ...All of which are less than the tip of the iceberg of course, but still, evidence of investment...


posted on Mar, 1 2005 @ 10:05 PM

Originally posted by Muaddib

Originally posted by rapier28

It's public knowledge that the US has a tendency of funding dissident groups, which is ironic since there tend to be minorities.

Really? would you care to give examples of these "dissident minorities which the US has a tendency of funding"?....

Err.... Jeez.... I'am sure that PM Allawi has majority support in Iraq now doesn't he...

posted on Mar, 1 2005 @ 10:29 PM
Well these very countries will one day decide like the US that any parties wishing to demonstrate had better get a licence first, this way the governemnet can build quarantine areas and advise the public that such demonstartaions will only be allowed in those areas. They can cite the US as the democratic role model for this action.

How strikingly opposing is that tactic considering the above US practice of late? Perhaps those very rogue countries actually now afford their demonstrating citizens far more freedom than the country inciting them.

posted on Mar, 2 2005 @ 12:07 AM

Originally posted by John bull 1

What's your point ?

What is the assertion you're trying to make and why is it relevant to this topic ?

Your thread was about who is organizing popular uprisings... i pretty much think those links i gave tell us who is making many of the popular uprisings not only on the US but other countries in the world.

I don't mind if you didn't bother to read them, yet you bothered enough to bring down my response and links, even thou you yourself confesed not to have read them, because they don't show that the US government is all evil like you and soficrow seem to think...

Anyways, you two agree on each other's posts, i got people agreeing with mine no worries....

posted on Mar, 2 2005 @ 12:15 AM

Originally posted by rapier28

Err.... Jeez.... I'am sure that PM Allawi has majority support in Iraq now doesn't he...

He was an interim PM.... He wasn't put there as a permanent pm.

Now people in Iraq are voting who they want are they not?.....

posted on Mar, 2 2005 @ 12:22 AM
BTW John bull 1, i used the word "assertion" because i hadn't given any links or evidence to back up what i said before my long post, and if you would have bothered to have read the links I gave, you would have seen that they are relevant to this thread.... Anyways, do whatever you want, i am not forcing you to read anything... But i see where your interests lie...

Oh and another thing John;

How do you organize spontaneity?

[edit on 2-3-2005 by Muaddib]

posted on Mar, 2 2005 @ 01:25 AM

How do you organize spontaneity?

That was the point I was making in a humourous way.

It's called an oxymoron (look it up in a dictionary it can be your word of the day.

The point being that these uprisings are not spontaneous but make up a pattern that could indicate a U.S policy of funding small opposition groups that manipulate public opinion and organise demonstrations.

You see that was the point of the post. It was to point out that this pattern was emerging.

The wider topic of worldwide governments funding of any group is interesting but not one I want the particular point I'm making to be drowned in.

To make my point clear it is that the U.S.A is using groups like Pora as a tool for regime change and possibly there are similar groups mobilising demonstrations in the Lebanon and there are sleeper activist groups in Iran, Syria, and even Saudi Arabia.

The most obvious way of countering my point is to use the argument that it's happening all over the place but with other governments/organisations and to contrast the lack of evidence for the point I'm making with other examples.

I accept that but the point I'm making is still the same and though your point is a good counter I'm not going to be diverted by it because mine is far more interesting because it's developing a successful track record.

[edit on 2-3-2005 by John bull 1]

posted on Mar, 2 2005 @ 02:08 AM
This pattern was emerging? Since when? 1776?

Bull: Who is organizing these spontaneous uprisings?

Well that’s a very broad question Mr. Bull and while I won’t attempt to answer it in the main I will say that in regards to the events in Haiti today, where men were shot down in the streets like dogs for chanting in support of Aristide (the only democratically elected ruler of Haiti since ever) such a question holds great bearing on the course of human events.

The history of Haiti and the plight of the people there must serve as hard evidence to any honest student of history that the USA is not a defender of democracy and the notion that it does ( as my country insanely maintains) deserves nothing short of ridicule.

The facts of Haitian history must stand as an extreme irritant that will consistently fly in the face of any persnickety dilettante that would hold the U.S.A. forth as a benign defender of democracy.

History will deliver a rude correction to the teachings of any that now vainly hope America will facilitate democracy taking root in their land or any other.

Is it your posit that the uprising in Haiti was the result of US agitators? Or is it that in some cases the US is the demon and in others the hero?

I would like to play optometrist and correct your vision so that you, like I, see an America as much a demon abroad as at home.

It is my desire one day rise to the level of submitting fiction to your illustrious venue but I recoil at the loss of copyrights and am permanently repelled.

I will say that while fishing in the deep blue one day I encountered at distance refugees on a raft. I regarded this event as an omen of good fortune as I well knew the proclivity of game fish to dwell in the proximity of shade. The refugees hailed me likewise as an omen of their salvation. I smiled and waved as I baited the hook and trolled beneath their floating weir. As I got game fish on I played them well and in thanks I smiled and waved goodbye to the ones that had brought me such good fortune.

I ask only if you have any knowledge of the depravations of which you speak or are you merely clacking teeth?

“Rebels ousted President Jean-Bertrand Aristide during a three-week revolt.”

Ha! Rebels! Ha! Try US CIA agents, more like.

posted on Mar, 2 2005 @ 02:29 AM
Is the US, funding opposition groups in countries with hostile regmes? Probably.
Are China and perhaps the old Soviet communist parties funding opposition groups in western capitalist countries? Probably.

I think there is ample evidence on both sides of a "shadow war"going on, not, as during the cold war, through proxy guerilla groups, but in the minds and souls of people around the world. It is a shadow war, but it is war none the less. It is a war of freedom versus tyranny, a war between those who would allow mankind to remain the master of his wn destiny and those who would attempt to lead us down the path to a non existant "radiant future" It is, simply put, a war between good and evil.

Is the US funding reform minded grups in Lebanon, Syria, Iran, and Saudi Arabia? It damn well better be. The fact is those who oppose freedom have no qualms about pushing thier agenda, through fair means or foul, in an attempt to lead us all into thier "radiant future" and we had better not have any problems opposing them. If we fail to fght the forces of darkness, if we go quietly into that good night, all hope for humanity is lost, for if we do not fight, we have already lost.

Fight for freedom, fight for democracy, fght in the cafe's and on the web, fight with your words, your minds, and your intellect. Fight in the arena of public opinion, n the board rooms, and in the cty halls. Do not be lx, do not make the mistake of underestimatng our enemies, and do not forget, we are not just fighting for our future, we are fighting for the future.

Thank you muadib, for exposing ths threat, that we may wage holy crusade agianst it.
God and country.

posted on Mar, 2 2005 @ 09:06 AM

Originally posted by mwm1331

Is the US funding reform minded grups in Lebanon, Syria, Iran, and Saudi Arabia? It damn well better be.

Too bad we are, it shows that we can't facilitate a dialogue on the world level and create a world community committed to work for peace.

Thank you muadib, for exposing ths threat, that we may wage holy crusade agianst it.
God and country.

I know you are a fighter and I respect you for that. We always disagree and have yet to agree but I have hope we may find that enjoyment sometime in our future discussions. I don't put you down for having your thoughts, I will always keep the door open to dialogue with you that we may understand eachoter even if we don't agree, we will always be able to learn from eachother.

Question: Will you join the armed forces and fight, have you already, are you currently?

By the way, did you happen to get to read any of the howard zinn free chapter links I posted in the other forum we were talking in?

- 00ps

[edit on 2-3-2005 by 00PS]

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