Reconciling Creationism with Evolution: both are correct...

originally posted by: Barcs
a reply to: cooperton

Chemical reactions are NOT random chance.

But the random mutations are.

But speaking of chemical reactions, they act according to meticulous laws. No law creates itself, there always needs to be someone/something to enact the law. These chemical laws act according to specific mathematical patterns, further indicating that the enforcer of these laws is very intelligent considering these very laws are what has kept the physical world perpetuating for the past known history.

a reply to: cooperton

But speaking of chemical reactions, they act according to meticulous laws. No law creates itself, there always needs to be someone/something to enact the law. These chemical laws act according to specific mathematical patterns, further indicating that the enforcer of these laws is very intelligent considering these very laws are what has kept the physical world perpetuating for the past known history.

This simply is not true. Mathematics can describe physical systems. It can enable us to solve problems - but not all problems. Mathematics does not dictate the physical universe.

Organic chemistry doesn't follow "laws". It's the study of the structure and properties of carbon compounds. Patterns emerge but because of evolution, the degree of flexibility in chemical reactions is huge. An organism will self assemble even the most basic compounds in the evolutionary process.

If this wasn't the case, the variety of life on this planet wouldn't exist. They would all look like Turbonium!!

originally posted by: Raggedyman
a reply to: TzarChasm

Bill Nye, isn’t he a children’s tv presenter, really

Among many other things, yes he is a highly credited professional with decades of experience in the education industry, which pertains to both children and adults alike. Definitely something to be proud of.

a reply to: TzarChasm

Oh dear me please TC don’t be that guy

If I see or hear a Christian who says something stupid, is stupid I am not going to defend him. I will distance myself from them

You are defending Nye, please why, you don’t actually think he is intelligent surely
rightwingnews.com...

Or this


Sometimes, just don’t, I will lose respect for you

originally posted by: Raggedyman
a reply to: TzarChasm

Oh dear me please TC don’t be that guy

If I see or hear a Christian who says something stupid, is stupid I am not going to defend him. I will distance myself from them

You are defending Nye, please why, you don’t actually think he is intelligent surely
rightwingnews.com...

Or this

Sometimes, just don’t, I will lose respect for you

I don't see you posting any specific points about what he says and why it is wrong.

a reply to: Raggedyman

Your sources totally look legit, bra.

a reply to: Barcs

Thanks bra, but we are discussing Bill Nye, there is nothing legit about that guy

I could link plenty of serious sites, just wanted something funny and lite, I don’t expect tc was serious either

a reply to: cooperton

Ok but are you saying that it is statistically impossible for a random chance event to create life ?

if I am falling under the same assumption that evolution a random chance event created life as we know it just because it far surpasses our understanding doesn't mean that it couldn't have happened , we just say its far to complex and so must have a divine source or intelligent design because we cant understand it just like everything else we couldn't understand !
Like lightning or the Aurora borealis , or dust devils , earthquakes (all god , before we figured them out )



Why do we have to say that it required intelligent design just because we cant understand the how and why ?
because something so complex just cant have happened from random chance , but fantastical things happen all the time by random chance.

Biological life is far more advanced than our understanding of robotics , funny well biological life has only had a couple of million years head start on our understanding of robotics.

a reply to: sapien82

Like lightning, auroras, cyclones came from where? also the issue is life not auroras or earthquakes.
I don't think you fully understand the issue at hand

originally posted by: Raggedyman
a reply to: Barcs

Thanks bra, but we are discussing Bill Nye, there is nothing legit about that guy

I could link plenty of serious sites, just wanted something funny and lite, I don’t expect tc was serious either

He's got more credibility than the entire YEC movement put together. Sorry. I get that creationists hate him, but he's legit. Yeah he's an entertainer, but he's no dummy and understands most science on a fundamental level, which is far more than what the idiotic science deniers say.

originally posted by: Barcs

originally posted by: Raggedyman
a reply to: Barcs

Thanks bra, but we are discussing Bill Nye, there is nothing legit about that guy

I could link plenty of serious sites, just wanted something funny and lite, I don’t expect tc was serious either

He's got more credibility than the entire YEC movement put together. Sorry. I get that creationists hate him, but he's legit. Yeah he's an entertainer, but he's no dummy and understands most science on a fundamental level, which is far more than what the idiotic science deniers say.

That's your opinion, he is a nobody clown, entertaining kids on weekends selling pop culture, kinda makes sense why you are attracted to him
Nobody in the scientific field takes him seriously

You dear TC are a science denier, poisoning science, you hate real science and insert your pseudo science to prop up your confirmation bias with a Sataurday morning tv clown

Clown fish are humans dammit

a reply to: Raggedyman

I'm not posting opinions, just facts. Nye knows science. He's invented things in the past, he's no dummy. Creationists are just slandering him with their invalid illogical opinions.

One thing is for sure........

I do not believe in atheist.

originally posted by: sapien82
a reply to: cooperton

Ok but are you saying that it is statistically impossible for a random chance event to create life ?

if I am falling under the same assumption that evolution a random chance event created life as we know it just because it far surpasses our understanding doesn't mean that it couldn't have happened , we just say its far to complex and so must have a divine source or intelligent design because we cant understand it just like everything else we couldn't understand !
Like lightning or the Aurora borealis , or dust devils , earthquakes (all god , before we figured them out )

The organized nature of our world insists that something organized it. the planet's orbit around the sun can be likened to a golf ball twirling around the cup ad infinitum - it is in a perfect equilibrium. The gravitational pull from the sun, if not in equilibrium, would pull all the planets towards it destroying everything. But it does not, and we have consistent orbits that allow life to enjoy the "goldi-locks zone". This and the other ordered aspects about everything around us is to me a clear indication of design.

Consider the idea of the world being created by random chance to be a human-made imagination. Doubt your doubt! Many accuse God of being solely in our imagination, but we see an ordered world and universe, so it points to an intelligent creator and faculty in the creation of it all.

originally posted by: Phantom423

(chemical reactions acting according to meticulous laws) simply is not true.

Now you're denying science. Look into chemical kinetics. That is how we are able to predict all sorts of properties regarding chemical reactions and it is mostly traceable and predictable through mathematics.

Organic chemistry doesn't follow "laws". It's the study of the structure and properties of carbon compounds.

You will literally disagree with anything I saw for the sake of disagreeing with me. Of course organic chemistry follows laws. Take for example torsion parameters in organic chemistry that determine what is the most stable form of an organic ring due to bond angles and other electromagnetic properties. Organic chemistry relies on predictable laws to allow a consistent stable organism. If any of these laws were to change it would have a drastic effect on biology. Have you ever wondered what enacted these laws? Or do you just blindly believe "evolution did it"?

Patterns emerge but because of evolution

Lol that is rich. "evolution did it".

a reply to: cooperton

Are you saying that statistically it is impossible for life to occur by random chance? (please answer this question as you have ducked it twice now)

as for order , it doesnt necessarily mean intelligent design, I saw leaves fall from a tree and make a pattern on the grass
was that by design or just by random chance ? (let me guess god designed it all for me to see that pattern right )

Human brains are adept at pattern recognition we see patterns everywhere some are better at it than others ( I thought we are all created equal under god ) . Where did pattern recognition come from , well it was the development of the eye through survival of the fittest , genes being passed from one successfull breeding pair to another generation.
The best animals at pattern recognition survived from predators or through better predation to pass on those genes.
So the evidence of the evolution of the eye from single celled organisms that detect light all the way up to the eye of an eagle or snake or human is there for all to see (pun intended)


When we see a pattern we start to think of order , but just because something has order doesnt necessarily mean it was designed by some higher intelligence. Humans like to think this only because it makes us feel more comfortable about being all alone in the universe with no comfort about what happens when we die. So its convenient for us to make up some mystical being who has all the answers to comfort us and our fear of the unknown!
probably also the reason we have so many different pagan gods to explain all the various natural phenomenon.

When we say that evolution is the best answer we have for life , its not because we just say evolution did it , its constantly being improved upon and amended as you know its a scientific theory , its the best answer we have yet that is evidenced by everything on earth. Yet there is only a handful of books that speak of a singular god that created everything.

where as "god done it" is the be all end all ,as we have no way for sure to prove that unless we have a board meeting with god! yet we have the ability to prove evolution is fact by continually researching and finding more information.
There hastn been any new evidence of god since the bible , yet science continues to advance and improve upon its theory of evolution.

As I have said before if god was super intelligent being, that created every single law we observe which gives order to the universe , including the bonding of atoms in chemical arrangements from the van der waals forces , ionic bonds , covalent bonds , even the laws that govern quantum states and also the laws that govern large astronomical bodies
and all the complex relationships of the various systems on the living earth.
God would also need a creator because something so complex would need to be designed, so it never ends at god !
Also with so many other gods that humans have many books of , why is the monotheist god the correct god , just because it was a best seller , and more popular or made more sense than the pantheon of pagan gods , or was it just society being indoctrinated by the people who had a vested interest in controlling the masses with a singular god?
so christians are right , no muslims, no pagans are right ! so many gods all claiming they made the universe.

If gods word is absolute why do theists need to update and amend the word of god as science advances to explain our natural universe.

For example there is no mention of aliens in the biblical texts, yet the vatican felt the need to mention aliens recently because they were afraid of the possibility that aliens would blow the lid of religion.

I just dont accept inelligent design as a viable solution, unless life on earth was created by a super advanced alien race , who just posed as our gods ! any advanced science would look like magic or divine intervention to a lesser civilisation. I could go for that .

I think the universe came into being just for the # of it , because why not
Im not exactly an atheist , I dont believe in a god or gods, but id be willing to believe there is some force that connects every living thing and consciousness is a part of that , but not some all powerful being like the god of organised religion!
Beard and robes n all!
If it was created in seven days then # , god is indeed incredible , but that even seems too far fetched no one single thing could create all of this so perfectly to allow for life , as its truly a masterpiece


if random chance is too far out there to consider for you then god super being is too far out there for me !
unless god is actually just random chance .

if anything its just human ego and the desire and curioisty to know why !
nothing to do with god , just us, so we make # up to satisfy our egos

a reply to: Raggedyman

If you've not read anything we have supplied, which you admit you have not. You don't know. In return you cite a source that is biased.

What you don't seem to understand is; that as a scientist, I am constantly testin, and validating what I do, what I beleive. When new evidence appears, I readjust.

I'm not brain washed, I'm educated.

I also question my faith in my deities. So you are not special Raggy.

originally posted by: sapien82
a reply to: cooperton

Are you saying that statistically it is impossible for life to occur by random chance? (please answer this question as you have ducked it twice now)

Yes. According to empirical evidence, there are many leaps that are insurmountable through conventional natural means. I mention just one of these hurdles in this thread Abiogenesis

as for order , it doesnt necessarily mean intelligent design, I saw leaves fall from a tree and make a pattern on the grass
was that by design or just by random chance ? (let me guess god designed it all for me to see that pattern right )

Even leaves have a fractal pattern that branches according to the phi ratio. The phi ratio is an irrational number meaning that its decimal places go on forever without repeating a sequence. In this there is an infinite amount of data or information. Even leaves falling to the ground have a purpose - the decomposing material of the leaf fertilizes the trees and other plants in the ecosystem. It is a beautifully designed regenerative system.

Human brains are adept at pattern recognition we see patterns everywhere some are better at it than others ( I thought we are all created equal under god ) . Where did pattern recognition come from , well it was the development of the eye through survival of the fittest , genes being passed from one successfull breeding pair to another generation.
The best animals at pattern recognition survived from predators or through better predation to pass on those genes.
So the evidence of the evolution of the eye from single celled organisms that detect light all the way up to the eye of an eagle or snake or human is there for all to see (pun intended)

Again, you are simply saying evolution did it. If you are confounded by the logic that God did it, why do you continually use more abstract assumptions saying that random chance created the ordered universe? It is much more likely that an intelligent being put the universe in order.

When we see a pattern we start to think of order , but just because something has order doesnt necessarily mean it was designed by some higher intelligence. Humans like to think this only because it makes us feel more comfortable about being all alone in the universe with no comfort about what happens when we die. So its convenient for us to make up some mystical being who has all the answers to comfort us and our fear of the unknown!
probably also the reason we have so many different pagan gods to explain all the various natural phenomenon.

Optimism is only matched and often surpassed by pessimism. Consider doubting your doubt.

[quote
When we say that evolution is the best answer we have for life , its not because we just say evolution did it , its constantly being improved upon and amended as you know its a scientific theory , its the best answer we have yet that is evidenced by everything on earth.

It is proven impossible by many scientific observations. You'll have to realize this on your own because I've tried to point out as many as I can but you gotta be able to see the forest among the trees.

Yet there is only a handful of books that speak of a singular god that created everything.

All major cultures throughout history point to a single origin from God creating humankind. The Chinese, Egyptians, Hebrews, Sumerians, Greeks, and so forth.

where as "god done it" is the be all end all ,as we have no way for sure to prove that unless we have a board meeting with god!

God did it is just the beginning. Your mind becomes renewed and you view life from a brand new perspective, allowing the language of nature and God to resonate with your very being. This is a thing you have to experience personally, I cannot explain it effectively through words.

As I have said before if god was super intelligent being, that created every single law we observe which gives order to the universe , including the bonding of atoms in chemical arrangements from the van der waals forces , ionic bonds , covalent bonds , even the laws that govern quantum states and also the laws that govern large astronomical bodies
and all the complex relationships of the various systems on the living earth.
God would also need a creator because something so complex would need to be designed, so it never ends at god !

It's good you admit it is so complex. Plato solved this dilemma with this simple logic: something cannot come from nothing. Something exists. Therefore, since something cannot come from nothing, and something exists, something must have always existed. To the Judeo-Christians this is the Alpha-Omega: a being transcendent and above the limitations of time.

Also with so many other gods that humans have many books of , why is the monotheist god the correct god , just because it was a best seller , and more popular or made more sense than the pantheon of pagan gods , or was it just society being indoctrinated by the people who had a vested interest in controlling the masses with a singular god?
so christians are right , no muslims, no pagans are right ! so many gods all claiming they made the universe.

There have been many, many names for the Most High. Yet the Most High transcends even names, we can understand one day, but we have to forfeit all ignorance.

If gods word is absolute why do theists need to update and amend the word of god as science advances to explain our natural universe.

Only theists who compromise the unchanging God feel the need to amend. Our scientific understanding changes, God does not.

For example there is no mention of aliens in the biblical texts, yet the vatican felt the need to mention aliens recently because they were afraid of the possibility that aliens would blow the lid of religion.

The fallen are essentially aliens in the most literal sense.

I just dont accept inelligent design as a viable solution

But you admit life is very complex? Intelligent design is the more likely answer, considering the order and complexity we observe in our world and our selves.

a reply to: cooperton

The organized nature of our world insists that something organized it. the planet's orbit around the sun can be likened to a golf ball twirling around the cup ad infinitum - it is in a perfect equilibrium. The gravitational pull from the sun, if not in equilibrium, would pull all the planets towards it destroying everything. But it does not, and we have consistent orbits that allow life to enjoy the "goldi-locks zone". This and the other ordered aspects about everything around us is to me a clear indication of design. Consider the idea of the world being created by random chance to be a human-made imagination. Doubt your doubt! Many accuse God of being solely in our imagination, but we see an ordered world and universe, so it points to an intelligent creator and faculty in the creation of it all.

You can believe in a god if you wish. As I've said before, it doesn't matter one way or the other because there's no evidence either way. And as far as I'm concerned, it's fine if there is a god and just as fine if there isn't. I'm not going to waste time on the subject.

Now you're denying science. Look into chemical kinetics. That is how we are able to predict all sorts of properties regarding chemical reactions and it is mostly traceable and predictable through mathematics.

These are not LAWS. They are formulas. Mathematical relationships. Recipes to make things.

You will literally disagree with anything I saw for the sake of disagreeing with me. Of course organic chemistry follows laws. Take for example torsion parameters in organic chemistry that determine what is the most stable form of an organic ring due to bond angles and other electromagnetic properties. Organic chemistry relies on predictable laws to allow a consistent stable organism. If any of these laws were to change it would have a drastic effect on biology. Have you ever wondered what enacted these laws? Or do you just blindly believe "evolution did it"?

A scientist thinks of "laws" as unchangeable predictions under any circumstance - like the laws of thermodynamics in a closed system. Bond angles can change. Bond angles bend and have a vibrational frequency dependent on the environment. Bond angles have to be flexible otherwise everything would break apart! Torsion parameters can change. Get a good physical chemistry book.

Potential energy functions:



Evolution is a property of nature on this planet. There is no evidence to the contrary.

originally posted by: Barcs
a reply to: Raggedyman

I'm not posting opinions, just facts. Nye knows science. He's invented things in the past, he's no dummy. Creationists are just slandering him with their invalid illogical opinions.

Yes barcs it’s evident the kind of scientists you are attracted to and believe
I can see that
Nye knows enough science to make himself look stupid.
Mixing science with politics for an outcome

a reply to: Noinden

Why don’t you post up some proof, empirical evidence
Can you see me replying to your posts Noi, of course I have read what you have posted you ninny
I couldn’t care less what you question Noi, I was pointing out atheists who hate science by not questioning it, not you
But that’s irrelevant

What is relevant is you posting up empirical ROT evidence for evolution
Putting on a white coat doesn’t make you a scientist, a scientists from the Bill Nye school of science



I am so sorry you think you know anything or think you deserve recognition of your stature, it’s irrelevant to me