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The REAL Reason Democrats are Against The Wall

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posted on Feb, 4 2019 @ 10:32 AM
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a reply to: AugustusMasonicus

You bring up an excellent point, AM.

Illegal drugs can be shipped via semi-trailer trucks through established ports of entry because the infrastructure (improved roads) that exist at those locations are capable of supporting them.

As you pointed out, it is not possible to drive a semi very far through the open desert.

Now consider what kind of infrastructure would be required to erect, maintain, patrol, and, when necessary, repair a “wall” or other such solid barrier along the extent of its length. Some of the proposed designs would represent a massive construction effort, undoubtedly requiring long stretches of paved roads just to access the construction sites with the kind of heavy equipment necessary for the job. And those roads would have to remain in place (and be maintained in good repair) to patrol and maintain the barrier, in whatever form it takes, as long as the barrier exists.

Aside from the additional costs the necessary infrastructure a barrier, as proposed, would incur (none of which Mexico seems willing to offset) there is an added Security concern no one seems to be recognizing:

The roads we would have to build, through what is now just open desert in many places, to facilitate the construction and maintenance of a wall, could, and would, be used by others to expedite their infiltration of our border areas once the barrier is breached at any particular location.

We would actually be making it Easier! for drugs and undocumented immigrants to escape undetected into the country by speeding their passage through rough territory on roads we pay to maintain!




posted on Feb, 4 2019 @ 10:34 AM
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a reply to: Bhadhidar


I would prefer all monies went to hiring more agents and dealing with the root cause; addiction, than to a wall which doesn't curtail the amount of drugs entering the country.

We also need to address the elephant in the room which is the Mexican government's complicity in the smuggling, the trial made it clear it runs all the way to the top. You cannot expect to stem the flow of drugs when a sovereign nation is part of the influx infrastructure.



posted on Feb, 4 2019 @ 02:55 PM
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originally posted by: Bhadhidar
a reply to: AugustusMasonicus

You bring up an excellent point, AM.

Illegal drugs can be shipped via semi-trailer trucks through established ports of entry because the infrastructure (improved roads) that exist at those locations are capable of supporting them.

As you pointed out, it is not possible to drive a semi very far through the open desert.

Now consider what kind of infrastructure would be required to erect, maintain, patrol, and, when necessary, repair a “wall” or other such solid barrier along the extent of its length. Some of the proposed designs would represent a massive construction effort, undoubtedly requiring long stretches of paved roads just to access the construction sites with the kind of heavy equipment necessary for the job. And those roads would have to remain in place (and be maintained in good repair) to patrol and maintain the barrier, in whatever form it takes, as long as the barrier exists.

Aside from the additional costs the necessary infrastructure a barrier, as proposed, would incur (none of which Mexico seems willing to offset) there is an added Security concern no one seems to be recognizing:

The roads we would have to build, through what is now just open desert in many places, to facilitate the construction and maintenance of a wall, could, and would, be used by others to expedite their infiltration of our border areas once the barrier is breached at any particular location.

We would actually be making it Easier! for drugs and undocumented immigrants to escape undetected into the country by speeding their passage through rough territory on roads we pay to maintain!


A DMZ would work much better.



posted on Feb, 4 2019 @ 04:18 PM
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a reply to: yuppa

I assume you jest, but let’s consider:

A DMZ would have to be still have to be established, patrolled, and maintained (hey, someone has to replace the anti-personnel mines that get set off by lightning and animals, right?).

That would still require at least some semblance of roads where currently only scrub brush exists.

And then you have the same problem: the infrastructure you need to maintain your “security” weakens your security when it is commandeered by the very ner-do-wells you’re securing against.
edit on 4-2-2019 by Bhadhidar because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 4 2019 @ 08:28 PM
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a reply to: AugustusMasonicus


How so? How do you drive semis through the open desert?


Easy. The ground is hard. I have parked my semi on the desert many times. A lot of areas don't even have breakdown lanes; they just clear a space on the desert soil the same size as a breakdown lane.

TheRedneck



posted on Feb, 4 2019 @ 08:46 PM
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a reply to: AugustusMasonicus


Yeah, boogeyman, because vast quantities of drugs are not coming over the border in the remote areas, it's not logistically feasible. There is no infrastructure to transport the drugs, that's why they use the ports of entry.

Read my reply to you above. You obviously know nothing about the situation. Trucks don't require 'infrastructure' is the ground is hard enough, and that ground is hard enough.


The witnesses run the gamut from cartel members to our own agents and CIs.

So the cartel members aren't going to give up the good secrets and our guys don't know them. If they knew where all of the drugs are coming in, why are they still getting in?


How does the barrier treat demand? Does it also make people not move drugs through ports entry like they are doing now?

You know what? A wall also won't stop world hunger.

Do you have any arguments against it that actually make sense?


Drugs are not being walked across the border, they are being driven, in large trucks, daily, and we catch very little of it because there are not enough agents to inspect them all.

There's also no reason they can't just drive across the desert. See above.


Sure, as soon as you post a video of a large drug bust where someone is walking the drugs across the border where there is no wall.

So you don't have the video I requested... thought so.

As to your request, that is simply ridiculous. Go to the border. Look across a hard flat desert to Mexico and tell me no one can drive across it. I'm sure you would do so, but you'd be lying.

TheRedneck



posted on Feb, 4 2019 @ 08:51 PM
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originally posted by: Bhadhidar
a reply to: yuppa

I assume you jest, but let’s consider:

A DMZ would have to be still have to be established, patrolled, and maintained (hey, someone has to replace the anti-personnel mines that get set off by lightning and animals, right?).

That would still require at least some semblance of roads where currently only scrub brush exists.

And then you have the same problem: the infrastructure you need to maintain your “security” weakens your security when it is commandeered by the very ner-do-wells you’re securing against.


ever hear of the newer smart mines? animals wont set them off. and also good luck getting the codes to disarm or even fool with the explosives. also humvees or m raps work wel in desert.



posted on Feb, 5 2019 @ 06:34 AM
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originally posted by: TheRedneck
Easy. The ground is hard.


Is the Rio Grande hard too? They cruising over that to get to the areas without roads so they can drive their drug-laden trucks over cacti?


they just clear a space on the desert soil the same size as a breakdown lane.


Is that what they're doing? I'd love to see evidence of this.



posted on Feb, 5 2019 @ 06:38 AM
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originally posted by: TheRedneck

Read my reply to you above. You obviously know nothing about the situation.


Says the guy who refuses to address the evidence from the El Chapo trial.


Trucks don't require 'infrastructure' is the ground is hard enough, and that ground is hard enough.


See reply above.



So the cartel members aren't going to give up the good secrets and our guys don't know them. If they knew where all of the drugs are coming in, why are they still getting in?


Already explained, it's a volume play, they throw enough at the ports of entry that it doesn't matter when there's a bust, so much more didn't get caught.



You know what? A wall also won't stop world hunger.


Nope, just like it wont stop illegal drugs.


Do you have any arguments against it that actually make sense?


Besides the superfluity aspect? Nah, I like when we waste money on circle jerks.



There's also no reason they can't just drive across the desert. See above.


Once more, I'd love to see evidence of this.



So you don't have the video I requested... thought so.


I do have it, I'm waiting on yours.


As to your request, that is simply ridiculous.


As to your request, it is simply ridiculous as it is a strawman of your own creation.



posted on Feb, 5 2019 @ 06:59 AM
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a reply to: StallionDuck

Let’s face it the drug problem isn’t going away, the only sensible answer is to legalise drugs. Portugal tried it and it worked for them.

example



posted on Feb, 5 2019 @ 09:36 AM
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a reply to: AugustusMasonicus


Is the Rio Grande hard too? They cruising over that to get to the areas without roads so they can drive their drug-laden trucks over cacti?

In some places. I've seen it as a flat dry creek bed. There are also places where it's a large river year round. We don't need a big beautiful wall everywhere.

And I hate to break this to you, but the entire border is not the Rio Grande. That stops somewhere around Arizona.

Also, one can drive around the cacti. We have this new-fangled invention called "steering."


Is that what they're doing? I'd love to see evidence of this.

Then go to New Mexico or Arizona. Are you asking for gas money or something?

 



Says the guy who refuses to address the evidence from the El Chapo trial.

To the guy who thinks El Chapo is suddenly an honest man and can tell no lies.


Already explained, it's a volume play, they throw enough at the ports of entry that it doesn't matter when there's a bust, so much more didn't get caught.

And you know for an absolute fact that no drugs are brought across the open part of the border? This from the man who doesn't even know what the desert looks like?


Nope, just like it wont stop illegal drugs.

I assume you got a better solution?


Nah, I like when we waste money on circle jerks.

Apparently.


I do have it, I'm waiting on yours.

Liar.

TheRedneck



posted on Feb, 5 2019 @ 10:14 AM
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originally posted by: TheRedneck

In some places. I've seen it as a flat dry creek bed. There are also places where it's a large river year round. We don't need a big beautiful wall everywhere.


Agreed, and you certainly don't need it in the middle of the desert where no trucks are crossing the border, either over a creek bed or a flowing river.


And I hate to break this to you, but the entire border is not the Rio Grande. That stops somewhere around Arizona.


And I hate to break it to you but there isn't a hoard of drug-filled semis crossing the desert.



Then go to New Mexico or Arizona. Are you asking for gas money or something?


I'm not wasting my money to see something that doesn't exist.


To the guy who thinks El Chapo is suddenly an honest man and can tell no lies.


Says the guy who disingenuously and conveniently left off the corroborating testimony by our agents.



And you know for an absolute fact that no drugs are brought across the open part of the border? This from the man who doesn't even know what the desert looks like?


I know for a fact that the vast majority of them are coming through points of entry as our DEA agents stated.


I assume you got a better solution?


I already posted it, get more agents to do more inspections at the ports of entry.



Liar.


Hi kettle.



posted on Feb, 5 2019 @ 05:24 PM
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a reply to: AugustusMasonicus


Agreed, and you certainly don't need it in the middle of the desert where no trucks are crossing the border, either over a creek bed or a flowing river.

Prove there are no trucks crossing the open border.


I'm not wasting my money to see something that doesn't exist.

Then you don't want proof.


Says the guy who disingenuously and conveniently left off the corroborating testimony by our agents.

How would our agents know about crossing routes we don't know about?


I know for a fact that the vast majority of them are coming through points of entry as our DEA agents stated.

Oh, really? Maybe you should contact ICE or at least CBP... it's kinda selfish to keep such in-depth knowledge to yourself.


I already posted it, get more agents to do more inspections at the ports of entry.

So beef up security where there is already security and ignore that areas where there is not security?

I seriously hope you don't work in any type of security capacity.

TheRedneck



posted on Feb, 5 2019 @ 08:32 PM
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a reply to: TheRedneck

Where I live there are a number of roads that are “off limits” to trucks over certain weight limits; mostly impacting multi-axle semi rigs.

The concern being that such vehicles are too heavy for the roads in question, and would damage those roads.

So I have a difficult time imagining big rigs, loaded with illicit drugs, crossing the open desert across the southern border of the US.

But even if they were, wouldn’t they show up on at least a few satellite shots of the desert?

Wouldn’t at least one or two (depending on how prevalent the practice is) have broken down during a crossing?

I can’t imagine the cartels would have so sophisticated (and expensive) support crew system in place that any breakdown would be repaired, in situ, to continue on to its destination. I could imagine a stranded rig being off-loaded and abandoned or destroyed in place: but then where is the wreckage? Surely something would be visible as an anomaly in the open desert.

Like that ocean liner found in the desert during the opening of ”Close Encounters of the Third Kind”.

I’ve heard of no such “unexplained” discoveries. By your account, shouldn’t there be many?

edit on 5-2-2019 by Bhadhidar because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 5 2019 @ 08:41 PM
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originally posted by: TheRedneck

Prove there are no trucks crossing the open border.


How do I prove a negative? You're the one who thinks everyone is lying and that drugs are actually getting in on semis traversing the desert as opposed to ports of entry.


Then you don't want proof.


Do you have proof? Oh, wait, you just asked me to get you some.


How would our agents know about crossing routes we don't know about?


You mean strawmen?



Oh, really? Maybe you should contact ICE or at least CBP... it's kinda selfish to keep such in-depth knowledge to yourself.


Why? The government witnesses testified to this fact and the border agents have been asking for more help in checking vehicles since the last decade.


So beef up security where there is already security and ignore that areas where there is not security?


I'm not interested in dumping money into an area with no proven threat.


I seriously hope you don't work in any type of security capacity.


If I did I'd listen to the people who worked for me and deploy resources where they recommended them based on their experiences in dealing with the situation. But then again I'm a sensible person.






edit on 5-2-2019 by AugustusMasonicus because: networkdude has no beer



posted on Feb, 5 2019 @ 10:58 PM
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a reply to: Bhadhidar




So I have a difficult time imagining big rigs, loaded with illicit drugs, crossing the open desert across the southern border of the US.


You feel that way for good reason, it's just not a plausible idea, I believe even Sanders admitted most drugs enter ports of entry.



posted on Feb, 5 2019 @ 10:59 PM
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a reply to: AugustusMasonicus


If I did I'd listen to the people who worked for me and deploy resources where they recommended them based on their experiences in dealing with the situation. But then again I'm a sensible person.

The plans Trump is proposing were submitted by CBP agents. In other words, he is "listening to the people who work for him and deploying resources where they recommend them based on their experiences in dealing with the situation." You are the one who has been declaring those who have actually been to the border are lying about it and that we should ignore the advice of the agents on the ground because of unknowns and the claims of a known drug lord.

And I know you're not stupid. So apparently, you're having a good yuck.

Fine. Laugh by yourself. I tire of your mental gymnastics.

TheRedneck



posted on Feb, 6 2019 @ 06:43 AM
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originally posted by: TheRedneck

The plans Trump is proposing were submitted by CBP agents. In other words, he is "listening to the people who work for him and deploying resources where they recommend them based on their experiences in dealing with the situation." You are the one who has been declaring those who have actually been to the border are lying about it and that we should ignore the advice of the agents on the ground because of unknowns and the claims of a known drug lord.



BRANDON JUDD*: I don't think it's going to be - well, OK, it's going to be a lot more secure. But what we're talking about is we're talking about a wall in strategic locations. We're not talking about a great wall of the United States. We're not talking about a continuous wall from California down to Texas. We're talking about a wall in strategic locations which then helps the Border Patrol agents do their job better.

INSKEEP: Because there are some places that are so sparsely populated and the ground is so fierce or so harsh you really don't need...

JUDD: Correct, correct.


So no wall in the desert to stop phantom semis. Why is that? Is it because drugs are coming in at ports of entry as the agents testified?




*Brandon Judd is the head of the Border Patrol Union.



posted on Feb, 6 2019 @ 09:30 AM
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a reply to: AugustusMasonicus

That quote is the exact same thing Trump is calling for. A wall in some areas, a fence in others, increased patrols in others.

More mental back-flips. Cute. Care to try a mental cartwheel next?

TheRedneck



posted on Feb, 6 2019 @ 10:02 AM
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originally posted by: EmmanuelGoldstein
a reply to: StallionDuck

If you were in charge of a multi-billion dollar a year heroin exporting business headquartered in Mexico, would you let a wall stop you from doing business and making money?
Come on man, the wall is a complete waste of time. Why not just arrest employees who hire illegals and execute all heroin smugglers on site?


Are the walls in your house a complete waste of time?



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