Teachers need a raise!

originally posted by: narrator
a reply to: scrounger

I just wanted to respond to a couple of your points.

Point 2: I was a teacher for 8 years and only got a raise when I switched districts, every district I taught in had spending freezes and couldn't give raises to anyone. Meaning, unless I changed districts, I wouldn't have gotten a raise in 8 years. So that isn't necessarily true that you get a raise every single year as a teacher.

where did I say it was 100 percent every district... Ill (for sake of discussion) take you at face value what your saying where you worked. it is not the norm and I ask for facts to justify if that is what is claimed. but to be fair you didnt bitch but did what the taxpayers do ... went somewhere else

Your last point: I left teaching for a better paying job. Of the 40ish people that graduated in my class from college (I graduated in December rather than the traditional class in May, which had a lot more people) only about 8 are still teaching. All have left the profession for better paying jobs.

again I give you credit for doing not saying you leave for a better job. However the rest of your class not teaching we cannot realistically presume that they all left because they wanted better jobs. some may have . but all? your saying none left because they were fired, could not handle it, retired, got married and didnt want to work, ect? Even if they all left for better jobs given the amount of teachers that make that thread still are teaching kinda negates its a majority trend

Saying you value the job if they're good at it: If the pay is crap, why would you expect great workers to take the job?

Its called WORK ETHIC and JOB EXPECTATION. First you WILLINGLY entered teaching KNOWING the pay AND BENIFITS it gave. second ANY EMPLOYEE is EXPECTED to perform at a level the job REQUIRES. I cant find ANY JOB (even teaching contracts) that say if you "feel" the pay is crap you can do a crappy job. Outside of teaching (being protected by the powerful union) if you tried this logic you be FIRED. Yes I EXPECT if you willingly took the job KNOWING THE PAY AND REQUIREMENTS you fulfill them. besides doesnt th is line of thought kinda torpedo the "we are doing this for the children" montra ? seems your "doing it for the children" as long as you feel your being paid right. in short "the children are a pawn, not the reason"


My ex was voted teacher of the year in her district in 2007, by 2009 she was no longer teaching because she found a job that doubled her salary to 66k.

Ok so they left for a better job... how exactly does this justify the "poor me they hate teachers and pay us crap" line? again as ALL TAXPAYERS face with non teaching jobs.. dont like it, leave.

The best teachers are being pushed out because they're realizing that they can do much more for their families by taking non-teaching jobs, while a lot of today's teachers aren't that good at the job, but don't want to leave the profession because they'll be more easily fired for being lazy/bad at other jobs.

thats an emotional attempt at justification. any job you can make that excuse and normallhy be ignored (at best) or laughed at (at worst). Add to it if you dont want to leave the profession then DONT. Just (as many do) ACCEPT the good and the bad. but lets be REALISTIC for a minute. good teachers if treated like alot of professions they would be making MORE than the average or bad ones. Its called MERIT pay / benifits. but YOUR UNIONS fight that concept every step of the way. so since you as a whole KEEP THAT UNION (or at minimum what it fights against) then dont ask us THE TAXPAYER to up your salary along with the average or poor teachers. now your last comment stop the bs. teachers dont leave their jobs to "because theyll be more easily fired for being lasy/bad". they STAY IN TEACHING for that protection.



Pay teachers more, and you'll attract higher quality teachers, and then you'll feel more value in your taxes going to public schools.

Im sorry but as a TAXPAYER i am paying for a product (education) and EXPECT a good bang for my buck. If it were any other product or service if I feel I am not getting what I paid for I GO SOMEWHERE ELSE. I dont have say an oil change place tell me Ill "feel more value" if I pay more and be held to just them. It is up to YOU THE TEACHER to either provide the value I am saying I expect to get. If you dont like it you dont provide it (leave) or I have ablility to go somewhere else. Again the first I dont see teachers doing (just lip service) and the second your unions fight tooth and nail against.

Higher pay results in better hires in every single job category, why wouldn't the same thing work with teaching?

Im gonna call out this statement as BULL COOKIES. First when you include BENIFITS (hmm seems missing in this debate wonder why) as a package your have more than the average taxpayer . With some benifits alot do not enjoy like paid (fully or mostly) heath insurance, vacations, guarenteed salary, ect. You also have some with wage freezes but most do not and with increases that most taxpayers never see if any. Now the dirty fact we are spending more per student (even in poor districts) than we ever have before. with MOST OF IT GOING TO SALARIES AND BENIFITS. but by far we are not getting an increase in results at any level.


Look lets deal in FACTS.
1. Teachers KNOW what they are getting into and CHOOSE to take the job and stay in it.
2. the claims of "for the children" is BS and you stated as such by the attitude "if the pay is crap why do you expect "
3. we have been throwing money at the education system for salaries and benefits for decades and NOT getting a return proportional to investment as a whole .
4. teachers pay and benefits (both in content and increases) have NOT reflected the economy as a whole and working taxpayers specifically.

But the biggest elephant in the room is we hear all the time at negotiations and strike threats is "we can leave for better things if you dont pay us more". but funny thing.. teachers in mass DONT DO THAT. In fact when a school district out east called their bluff and FIRED all of them and attempted to hire more took them to court to let them strike with no risk (sadly they won).

Look again teachers are worth it IF THEY DO A GOOD JOB.
But its well past time for the job to be like all others that TAXPAYERS HAVE
Effected by economy, judged by outcome and yes if you dont like it... LEAVE.
not hold our kids hostage knowing they are secure in that if they hold out they have NOTHING TO LOOSE.

scrounger

a reply to: scrounger

Listen, oh naturally smart and wise one. Did you get where you are in life teaching yourself to read, spell, become competent at arithmetic & basic science, history? You did that all yourself, right? Just you, and a stick to scratch letters and numbers in the dirt?
No? Mama helped?

What was that? All mommy touched on was basic reading and numbers? WOW, it all clicked for you, huh? What is that, some kind of genetic knowledge trick?

No it did't. You had 12 years of one teacher after another refining your basic knowledge skills every single year so you could grow up slightly less stupid than you started out, and have enough basic skills to at least punch a cash register to pay bills with in adulthood. Or maybe go to college to expand on that foundation education in effort to make a better income, no? Kind of the point of going to college, isn't it? To have someone teach you how to do more complex, higher income fetching work for a living (women's studies BS degrees not included)

Do you think the s# you learn comes free or something? Should someone going to trade school fling a fiver their way and call them overpaid, too? Teaching is a job, not volunteer work. If you think it IS, put your opinion, and ensuing lack of income, where your mouth is and show everyone how it's done free of charge.

a reply to: Nyiah

typical emotional rant with some personal attacks thrown in for color.

I was wondering when one would step out of the shadows and post and by god you stepped up to the plate.

But in your whole rant you seem to ignore the fact that all the education benefits were done and credited to GOOD TEACHERS not what they were paid.

In fact since you like to rant explain how our school systems were turning out (as a whole) better product (educated students) with less money in the past?

BTW nice you insinuate only teachers are worthy of a good paycheck over soldiers, police, fire, and yes even the plumber that comes and fixes your toilet.

tell you want... try this rant in a group of steel workers and see how far you get

but when you care to debate with facts, counter points and in short like an ADULT look me up

I relish it

scrounger

a reply to: lakenheath24

The average in my district is right around 70k. Very few teachers make 30k and where they do, it's for valid reasons. For reference, the median income in my area is 53k.

Just this last election we heard all about our underpaid teachers and how our schools need even more money. Luckily the people voted that crap down.

a reply to: scrounger

Look who's talking about being emotional. For F's sake, you don't even consider varying cost of living spreads across the country. The 30k a teacher may live large on in Appalachia is NOT going to go far in San Francisco. Pay has to mimic local standards, or say hello to shortages.

You do a lot to bitch and moan, but do nothing to address the fact that teacher shortages lead to oversized classrooms in the 90's/'00's. I remember when classes used to max at 12-15 kids. WTF happened? Whine-asses like you wanted to pay less, therefore there were less people willing to do the work on less income and the inevitable happened -- classroom sizes spiked. You want teachers to adequately maintain order in & teach effectively in a class of 30+ kids today for 30 grand or less, holy s#, you pathetically cheap fools. Yeah, you get what you pay for all right -- kids with a run of the room and no incentive to listen to a teacher who quite literally does not have the time spread among that many kids per period to pay attention to each individual kid anymore. That's the difference between when I was in school in the 90's, and today. You want a whole lot more, on far less. That's not going to work. And you have the balls to bitch about healthcare packages? You've completely MISSED everything wrong with the education system today, and bennies has nothing to do with it.

originally posted by: Nyiah
Listen, oh naturally smart and wise one. Did you get where you are in life teaching yourself to read, spell, become competent at arithmetic & basic science, history? You did that all yourself, right? Just you, and a stick to scratch letters and numbers in the dirt?
No? Mama helped?

What was that? All mommy touched on was basic reading and numbers? WOW, it all clicked for you, huh? What is that, some kind of genetic knowledge trick?

Listen, it's possible. I was raised by wolves, or so my old man alleges, and they taught me:

• Spelling
  
• Reading
  
• Calculus
  
• Latin
  
• And most importantly, to always eat the liver of your prey first

originally posted by: Nyiah
a reply to: scrounger

Look who's talking about being emotional. For F's sake,

Hmm you dropping the F bomb (well as much as ATS would allow) in accusing me of being emotional. Notice I never used profanity just strongly worded FACTS or opinons. not a good start and a fail in attempt at adult discussion.


you don't even consider varying cost of living spreads across the country. The 30k a teacher may live large on in Appalachia is NOT going to go far in San Francisco.

Here is what the average range and pay for teacher in San Francisco coming from source salary.com. "$62,017 to $82,006 with the average base salary of $71,034." If your gonna make an argument you need to use FACTS not a clearly emotional rant that I destroyed with facts within a .02 second google search. Emotional rant fail two


Pay has to mimic local standards, or say hello to shortages.

your comment about local standards again is emotional non fact based rant . you dont signify comparing to what? for example are you saying say a garbage man should compaire his pay to a heart doctor in the area? common AGAIN if your gonna debate use FACTS not emotions. BTW what shortages are there in teachers... be SPECIFIC since in most areas if a teacher leaves there is another to take their place.

You do a lot to bitch and moan, but do nothing to address the fact that teacher shortages lead to oversized classrooms in the 90's/'00's. I remember when classes used to max at 12-15 kids. WTF happened?

well to start the population got bigger and it was not economical or feasable to have class sizes that small in larger urban areas. in fact I hate to bust your emotional rant but even small rural school districts had larger class sizes due to consolidation of students due to what they could afford for teachers. but I digress your numbers may have been true for you (for purposes of discussion) but that size was not common even "back then". But to further deal in reality the increased class sizes we STILL had better outcome in 50 60 70 with less money spend. even further (other factors do play a role) class sizes are 20+ in private schools with teachers making less with better outcomes.

Whine-asses like you wanted to pay less, therefore there were less people willing to do the work on less income and the inevitable happened -- classroom sizes spiked. You want teachers to adequately maintain order in & teach effectively in a class of 30+ kids today for 30 grand or less, holy s#, you pathetically cheap fools. Yeah, you get what you pay for all right -- kids with a run of the room and no incentive to listen to a teacher who quite literally does not have the time spread among that many kids per period to pay attention to each individual kid anymore. That's the difference between when I was in school in the 90's, and today. You want a whole lot more, on far less. That's not going to work. And you have the balls to bitch about healthcare packages? You've completely MISSED everything wrong with the education system today, and bennies has nothing to do with it.

Now on to the last part of your emotional fact missing rant.
there are LOTS of factors why there are differences in earlier education outcome and now.
Family structure, lack of society morality , economic up and downturn, ect.
but one constant is the continued demanding of more wages will fix the problem .
We hear about all the class sizes, discipline lack of supplies, ect every negotiation time and MAGICALLY giving more wages and benefits all that goes away. Untill next time.

Now one fact you keep trying to overcome and ignore with emotional rants is this.
we the TAXPAYER are the ones FUNDING the educational system. In blunt simple terms WE ARE THE ONES BUYING THE SERVICES that teachers provide.
so yes we have (your emotional rant) "the balls" to question EVERYTHING attached to the service I am paying for.

No matter what the service be oil change, doctor and yes even teachers we are not getting what we are paying for then to have them demand we just give more is not acceptable.

Add to it o ranting one the taxpayer DOES NOT HAVE in this economic time (as improving as it is) the money to give more.

the teachers union as seen fit to limit firing bad or not effective teachers, limiting oversite by taxpayers and fighting any sort of merit system that would BENEFIT good teachers all we have is REFUSING TO GIVE MORE.

its time that the teachers and educational system as a whole be subject to the SAME economic , benefits, pay, ect system that the rest of us have to deal with.

condensed if you take a job with XX pay/benefits and requirements you DO YOUR JOB .
If you dont like it you FIND ANOTHER JOB. If we dont like what your doing you DONT GET A RAISE AND/OR GET FIRED.

now I saved your best rant for last

" and bennies has nothing to do with it"

But your reactions and continued harping on pay shows the exact opposite.

emotional epic failure number one.

BTW just a word of advice...
if your idea is to support teachers with your current tactics your not doing them any favors and helping the calls for no more money .


scrounger

originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus

originally posted by: Nyiah
Listen, oh naturally smart and wise one. Did you get where you are in life teaching yourself to read, spell, become competent at arithmetic & basic science, history? You did that all yourself, right? Just you, and a stick to scratch letters and numbers in the dirt?
No? Mama helped?

What was that? All mommy touched on was basic reading and numbers? WOW, it all clicked for you, huh? What is that, some kind of genetic knowledge trick?

Listen, it's possible. I was raised by wolves, or so my old man alleges, and they taught me:

• Spelling
  
• Reading
  
• Calculus
  
• Latin
  
• And most importantly, to always eat the liver of your prey first

very well stated

however you could have reminded him that what he is asking for (in a mocking way) is called currently HOME SCHOOLING .
Which also is (within limits) giving BETTER CHEAPER education.

but that would probably just result in another emotional rant.

Scrounger

Look let me be clear to those thinking I am "hating" on teachers or think their work is not important.
I have great respect FOR GOOD teachers and think they can be worth their weight in gold.
But so can ALOT of other occupations and if one is honest ANYONE who does their best and works hard to support their family no matter what occupation one holds.

But it is time to cut though the emotion, the hype and the idea that somehow teachers are above any other occupation and by their very job title automatically given respect.

Its time to review them as we would ANY OTHER job, service, occupation , ect.

Its time to apply (abit maybe cold and harsh) criteria that we hold other jobs and services too.

1. what funds do we have available for the service.

I am sorry but there is NOT unlimited funds available from taxpayers NO MATTER HOW VALUABLE any particular service is.

teachers are NO EXCEPTION

2. What is best way to distribute the LIMITED funds available.

this is where the whole education system needs to be HONESTLY gone through with a fine tooth comb with REASON AND REALITY .
For example do we more need extra para's in the classroom or more sports coaches (yes I deliberately choose a hot button topic).
do the teachers need a raise or do we need to put it into updating tech for the classrooms.
do we REALLY NEED all the administrators , vice principles , or the "admin pencil pushers just sitting on their asses waiting for retirement" be made to TEACH.
You get my point.

3. Do we have in place a UNBIAS rating system how schools and teachers are doing being administered by people OUTSIDE of the school/system.

as with ANY OCCUPATION you need a standard to gauge if something is doing well/working or not
teacher unions fight this tooth and nail claiming "kids are not widgets". Which is true.
But as with any occupation you can document if (ex) a kid is being disruptive, parents dont come in, has special needs, ect.
If they do that you can see who needs some special education, who needs removed and who really isnt doing their job.

4. You need to have ALTERNATIVES if the system or school is failing.
If say your oil change place isnt doing their job the best it can be or not at all. You go somewhere else.
same for schools. If one school is not doing well that money being spend should be available to be applied to somewhere else like charter or private school.
but again unions fight this because now they have to compete instead of a monopoly.

5. Wages and benefits MUST be in line within reason and with the economic times.

For example if one is teaching basic english 101 it is great you have masters. but your job does not need that nor having it should be automatic more money.

if the economy goes south ALL OCCUPATIONS can suffer in pay and benefits . why are teachers exempt from the very factors that effect the people that pay their salaries?

6. in any job there is a system that those that do well get rewarded more (not always) and those that dont perform to expectations are helped to improve or FIRED if they dont.

in education the unions fight for EVERYONE to get the same be they the worst teacher or the best. then complain and say your not paying enough/ need to pay more for better teachers...

lastly education/teachers need to realize you WORK FOR THE TAXPAYER... not the other way around.

Look its time to realize that the money available for education is LIMITED.
you cant keep raising taxes every time you say you need more.

you have to see what you can do with what you have and ONLY ask for more when all other avenues have been exhausted , make every dollar stretch, and most important (as with any other occupation) your wages/benefits going up are NOT guaranteed

In short time to live in the REAL WORLD.

scrounger

originally posted by: scrounger
however you could have reminded him...

I don't need to remind Nyiah of anything, she's pretty sharp.

a reply to: scrounger

Look lets deal in FACTS. 1. Teachers KNOW what they are getting into and CHOOSE to take the job and stay in it. 2. the claims of "for the children" is BS and you stated as such by the attitude "if the pay is crap why do you expect " 3. we have been throwing money at the education system for salaries and benefits for decades and NOT getting a return proportional to investment as a whole . 4. teachers pay and benefits (both in content and increases) have NOT reflected the economy as a whole and working taxpayers specifically. But the biggest elephant in the room is we hear all the time at negotiations and strike threats is "we can leave for better things if you dont pay us more". but funny thing.. teachers in mass DONT DO THAT. In fact when a school district out east called their bluff and FIRED all of them and attempted to hire more took them to court to let them strike with no risk (sadly they won). Look again teachers are worth it IF THEY DO A GOOD JOB. But its well past time for the job to be like all others that TAXPAYERS HAVE Effected by economy, judged by outcome and yes if you dont like it... LEAVE. not hold our kids hostage knowing they are secure in that if they hold out they have NOTHING TO LOOSE. scrounger

Benefits are missing from this discussion because benefits don't pay rent and buy food. Yes, teachers benefits are good. But if they can't afford rent, what good do the benefits do?

Now, to your list of facts.
1. Yes, they know what they're getting into. Why are teachers not allowed to complain about pay? Is any job allowed to complain about how little they make? Or are teachers the only ones not allowed? I don't understand your argument. Pay sucks, people complain. That's universal. It isn't just teachers. My argument is: If teachers know the pay is crap going into it, and someone has the choice of teaching science for 35k or being an engineer for 75k, 9 times out of 10 the person is going to become an engineer. The low pay is forcing out people that could be phenomenal teachers. Increase the pay, and it will attract higher quality teachers.
2. A lot of people teach "for the children". I don't know what you mean by that. That's why I taught. But at the end of the day, having a roof over my families' head was more important to me than the kids I taught. Which is why I had to stop teaching, cost of living was going up, but pay wasn't keeping up with it.
3. Have we? Where? In a lot of areas, teacher salaries are barely above the poverty line. In San Francisco, $117,000 is considered "low income". Teachers definitely don't make that. www.bbc.com...
4. Same as point #3. The pay increases you speak of make it sound like taxpayers have funded salaries of 150k for teachers. That simply isn't the case. Pay hasn't increased proportionally with cost of living for decades.

How are teachers holding kids hostage? Teachers are worth it. Yes, terrible teachers shouldn't teach, I agree with that. But if you don't pay teachers a comfortable wage, what type of teachers do you expect? No, I'm not saying that they're purposely going to be bad teachers. I'm saying that if someone is good at their job, they're going to find the best job for them, and that means good teachers leave teaching for more money. That leaves you with crappy teachers.

originally posted by: scrounger
a reply to: ApacheHelicopetr

I love the comment "how can you expect high standards if you pay us crap" bull#.

Thats how the world works. You want to recruit the best you got to pay up.
Otherwise you get substandard employees who cant get a better job.

originally posted by: scrounger
a reply to: ApacheHelicopetr

JUST LIKE EVERY TAXPAYER WHO WORKS AND PAYS YOUR SALARY.

Doesn't change the fact that highly qualified people will look elsewhere and leave substandard people to become teachers.

originally posted by: scrounger
a reply to: ApacheHelicopetr
you dont get to do a #ty job because you feel your pay is crap.

And you don't get highly motivated and qualified people by paying #.

originally posted by: scrounger
a reply to: ApacheHelicopetr
in ANY OTHER FIELD you be FIRED for such a work ethic

In any other field you would get paid more and company's that require highly qualified workers that DONT collapse.

originally posted by: scrounger
a reply to: ApacheHelicopetr

so your saying your entitled as a teacher to be crappy because of your pay?

Nope but I see the huge trouble in recruiting teacher and how school have to scrap the barrel as school cant compete with the private sector for SKILLED workers.

originally posted by: scrounger
a reply to: ApacheHelicopetr
look if you dont like the pay and job requirements....DONT TAKE OR STAY IN THE JOB.

AND THATS THE #ING PROBLEMS!

Most teacher with decent qualifications and skills ARE walking. Thats why most places have a crisis in recruiting maths and science teachers

Only reason I am staying is I already made money. But most my colleges are walking and are being replaced by under qualified staff as why would a science grad get a 35k a year job when they can get a 80k a year job?

originally posted by: scrounger
a reply to: ApacheHelicopetr
DONT LIKE THE JOB OR PAY.... DONT WORK THERE

And as I said most teacher are not choosing to stay and are walking.

a reply to: narrator

here is your very first comment quoted

"Benefits are missing from this discussion because benefits don't pay rent and buy food. Yes, teachers benefits are good. But if they can't afford rent, what good do the benefits do? "

this is a emotional and intellectually dishonest comment.

first your attempt to downplay benefits.
there is NO CONTRACT that offers LESS BENEFITS for more pay.
in fact ALL try to keep benefits same (at best) and most of the time INCREASE THEM.

tell me if they offered to take half of the value away from benefits and apply it DIRECTLY to pay do you think any union or teacher would do that?
if not your argument is quite bluntly bs with capital B.

now if you take the second part "But if they can't afford rent, what good do the benefits do?"

well in REALITY if you cant "afford" those things then WHY IN HADES DID YOU TAKE THE JOB?

there is NO SECRET to what the pay and benefits are.
In fact you spend time and money to get a teaching certificate so you had PLENTY OF TIME to decide this may be a poor financial choice.

seems if you choose to take (or stay in ) a job that doesnt make the cut then its on you not the employer.

given how emotional rant driven your first comment was how do you expect to win over people ?


Look to all those feeling as this poster does here is a REALITY CHECK.

Taxpayers ARE THE EMPLOYERS OF TEACHERS.

we have only so much money available for education.

we have to face economic REALITY of pay, benefits, job importance, ect in our daily occupations.

NONE OF US ARE GUARANTEED PAY RAISES , ANY BENEFITS (much less as good as teachers get as a whole) AND CANNOT DEMAND YOU PAY US MORE.

we are expected to do the best we can AT THE PAY WE AGREED TO or you get FIRED.
we are not all expected to get paid the same (unless union) no matter how good or bad we are at our jobs.
if we dont like our jobs we have option and told so to leave.

In fact if we try to strike (for one example) we loose time in grade benefit increases (vacation, retirement, ect ) and pay if we strike.

We can and do stay same and/even loose benefits to include even OUR JOBS due to economic downturns.

no matter how critical or important they may be.

Im sorry but teachers are just ANOTHER OCCUPATION. Better or more important than some but less than others.

there is not unlimited funds for them just like other occupations.

they work for a boss and thats THE TAXPAYERS not the other way around.

in short time to be like everyone else.

BTW despite personal examples here teaching seems hardly lacking in people willing to go into it.

scrounger

a reply to: scrounger

Your the one making the emotional rants heres.

And yes there is a teaching shortage.

Trying to find science and maths teachers is liking finding gold. Why would a science or maths grad take a 35k job when they can get twice as much elsewhere?

Which means many schools are having to use unqualified staff to teach those subjects.

Yes there us a flood of English and social studies teachers because they cant get jobs.

But for other subjects not so much.


The USA is sinking in education rankings for a reason.

If your not willing to pay more than you may as well accept China as the next superpower now.

originally posted by: ApacheHelicopetr
a reply to: scrounger

Your the one making the emotional rants heres.

ahh so you accustation keeps stating... but instead of countering (with facts) my points to lead with this shows the counter using irrelivant comments.

And yes there is a teaching shortage.

REALLY? You may bring up ISOLATED cases but as a whole explain how at every contract time in MOST of the school districts there isnt a rash of quittings? hmmmm

Trying to find science and maths teachers is liking finding gold. Why would a science or maths grad take a 35k job when they can get twice as much elsewhere?

Your first part is true of ALL TEACHERS . But what you choose to ignore is this is CAUSED BY THE UNIONS. you know those people that FIGHT TOOTH AND NAIL the idea of MERIT pay for good teachers. so your wanting better wages under a system for ALL TEACHERS , be good, bad or lazy. As for the last part tell me why we again still see science and math teachers not quitting at contract time .

Which means many schools are having to use unqualified staff to teach those subjects.

um care to back this up? Because last I checked ALL TEACHERS have to meet minimum requirements to teach (again dictated by teachers unions). So if your getting "unqulified staff" then you need to bring a complaint to the standards boards and have them removed. not claim you want more pay.

Yes there us a flood of English and social studies teachers because they cant get jobs.

again some PROOF of this SPECIFIC accusations.

But for other subjects not so much.


The USA is sinking in education rankings for a reason.

yea they are.. but it isnt due to pay and benifits of teachers. but what you are IGNORING and trying to downplay is private , charter and home schooling educational levels is much better than public schools at times up to half the cost. seems your "more money solves all" montra is failing now isnt it Adding to it not evey other country spends more than us and getting better results.

If your not willing to pay more than you may as well accept China as the next superpower now.

ah the "china" emotional response. the reason its emotional BS is unless your advocating using the china school system approach (that would be comparing apples to apples) .
because there school system has more to it than just "money spent".

again your whole comments is emotional, fact limiting argument.
what your saying is "spend more money and get more results"

the cold hard truth is that approach HAS FAILED .

its time to realize that you cant keep adding more money expecting a better result.
you need to stop trying to bury the fact the teacher union doesnt want school choice (aka competition), doesnt want standards of performance to judge how good/bad a teacher is, and most important does not want MERIT PAY AKA BETTER TEACHER BETTER PAY.

to boil it down you want more money spent on a system that pays the same for a good teacher vs bad teacher.

the kids are not the important part but a negotiation tool to be forgotten when the contract is signed.

scrounger

a reply to: scrounger

FACT: There is a shortage in Science and math teachers. And the reason is science and maths degree holders can easily get higher paid jobs elsewhere.

source

Teaching is competing with the private sector for people with these degree and the private sector is winning as they pay more.

So you have a choice:

Pay more for science and maths teachers and have your children taught by qualified professionals.

Don't pay more and have your children taught by unqualified wannabees likely with a worthless degree from some libral arts college in "something" studies.

I though I might add a perspective from Australia. I am about to embark on a 5 year stint at university to become a teacher. Got tired of working with my hands in construction and I teach martial arts and have been told I'm quite good at it. I also did quite well at school at history and creative writing so I'm studying to be a high school humanities and English/literature teacher. I'm 34 years old so this is quite a gamble. The good thing is, as an Australian citizen, the government will be paying for a considerable sum of the degree being a "commonwealth supported placement". I will only have to pay the "student contribution" which will leave me with a debt of about $25-30,000 at the end of it. In my state, teachers average about $74,000 a year. Starting salary is about $51,000.

There is debate in Australia currently about increasing the value of teachers. The opposition Labor party have asked Australian universities to increase the entry scores for teaching or will legislate to enforce it if they win government later this year. They are talking about bringing the entry scores inline with Law and medicine. This would coincide with government funding to increase renumeration for teachers. The Labor opposition party has stated that they want only the "best and brightest" people teaching our children. Sounds like I'm getting in at just the right time should I succeed lol.