Not many are denying ignorance

Uncle Joe,

I am not implying that aliens created the Nazca lines, although that would be a viable hypothesis, as in some ways the Nazca lines are like more sophisticated and permenant crop circles. What I am saying, is that whoever built the Nazca lines had advanced technology. You suggested the theory of hot air balloons. That IS an advanced technology. The first hot air balloon was flown in the modern age in the late 18th century. Do you know what the implication are of an ancient culture having hot air balloons thousands of years before the modern age? It is similar to the implications of an ancient culture electroplating thousands of years before the modern age.

There's your evidence that our ancients were advanced, right away.

The theory of the hot air theory was propounded by researchers who found many depictions of Incans in flight, in machines, some of the flying canoes and stories of flying humans and one such account of a boy being sent to fly over enemy territory for spying missions. So, yes flight existed. However, according to the null hypothesis, historians are only willing to concede to balloons, and only because the Nazca lines exist, because the implications of actual flying aeroplanes has more far-reaching implications. That does not mean that they were in fact using balloons.

That does not explain how they created those lines - it only explains that they could see their creations. How would you coordinate such a tedious effort and how would you maintain precision over several miles? Some of those lines are as thin or narrow as six inches and in others, several hundreds of yards. The probability for error is huge, that there is bound to be some irregularity using crude techniques. Yet, we can see just how perfect the spider creature is. There are no irregularities - it is done with amazing precision. This would mean an advanced system of mathematics and metrics and other accesories and tools.

So, whichever we look at it, we see they were "advanced" and when we put into perpsective, we see that it took us less than 200 years to go from hot air balloons to jet propulsion engines. The difference between a chemical battery and a fuel cell is only a century.

So, whichever way you look at it the ancients are advanced, as the following are facts:

The Incans had flight and were capable of feats of remarkable engineering with Nacza lines and irrigation systems
The Egyptians performed electroplating and were capabe of remarkable feats of engineering with the Pyramids and the Sphinx.
The Babylonians also had a dry cell battery, therefore showing that electro-chemistry was understood.

In China and even Babylonia there are accounts, just like those of Incans, of flying machines and kings having them constructed. Now, this is consistent with the knowledge that flight existed from above. So, here is your first proof of advanced technology. Unfortunately, at least to my knowledge, there exists few records of this knowledge in other world literature.

This is not the case with the Sanskrit texts, that are still intact, and it is our biggest fortune that they are and our biggest misfortune that despite this vast body of knowledge and overhwhelmimg evidence,we are still oblivious to it. These Sanskrit text push the level of technology much further, and it is consistent with the physical and cosmological understanding, the theological, archaeological and historical proof.

First and foremost the chemical battery and both an airship are described in the Sanskrit text Agastya Sahmita. This is consistent with the fact that electrochemisty was practiced during that time and flight did exist - a hot air balloon they say, right? It further describes an airship as a primitive form of flight.

We then have evidence of a solar-electric mercury ion engine in the Sanskrit text Samaraga Suddatra. How it works is described in such detail that it is identical to how a modern ion engine works. Further still, this ancient ion engine has been flown in India in 1895 before a large audience to 1500 feet, witnessed by the Maharaja of Baroda(who is knighted) and has been published in the state newspaper. This is your second proof.

We then have the fact that an entire text of ancient aeronautics exists, that goes into details on strategy, aircraft components, onboard machines, pilot aircraft, pilot uniform and food provisions and metallurgical formulas and how everything works, and they all conform with scientific principles(television, adaptive camoflage) and from which the highest scientific community from prestigious institutes in India(and indeed Asia) the national metallurgical lab and the national space research organization are working on and fabricated several new materials and devices from it. That is your third proof .

We then have evidence of a highly advanced understanding of physics(read vedic physics) quantum dynamics, particle, waves, light and mechanics and plasma physics. And an Sanskrit text discussing light spectroscopy and giving directions on how to construct one, and it has been constructed and published in India's science and history journal. That is your fourth proof.

We then have evidence of plastic surgery, brain surgery and other very delicate surgical procedures(51 operations on the eye alone) being carried out in free hospitals under the administration of anaesthestics. As well as psychothearpy. This is your fifth proof.

We then have evidence of advanced metals like steel and zinc being manfactured on an industrial level in ancient factories and exported to Persia and Europe. As well as an ancient iron pillar that is corrosion resistant. This is your 6th proof.

We then have a highly advanced form of computer notation, hashing algorithms, binary numbers and bionomial theorem. This is your 7th proof.

We then have the discovery of ancient planned urban cities, with modern sanitation and irrigation systems, multistories houses, mapped out onto a grid with an accuracy of 1.1mm, with even streets and wide boulevards. and even public baths/pools. In addition ancient engineering texts that discuss acoustistics and climatology. This is your 8th proof.

We then the theological evidences discussing multidimensional holographic cyclic universes, mapping the age of the Earth exactly, calculating the speed of light, postulating the heliocentric model of the solar system and gravitation and light and discussing expanding universes caused by big bangs(bindu vishputs) as broken symmetry of the superforces and oscillating superstrings as the cause of matter, space and time relativity. So much so, that some modern scientists regard it as the bible, the father of quantum mechanics, Schrodinger for instance. This is your 9th proof.

We then have "mythical" evidence, though which are called History in the Vedas, which discuss interstellar space travel, teleportions, time dilation and transmutation of metals, consciousness embedded weapons systems, artificial intelligence, genetic engineering and human cloning and weapons of mass destruction. And these epics are now proven to be history and the cities it describes that were sunk with weapons have indeed been found, and ancient sites with high level of radioactivity have been found. This is your 10th proof. Further still, even the "myth" are based on scientific principles.

The transmutation of bells metal to gold. Bells metal being an alloy of copper and tin = Cu29 + Sn50 = Au79

Human asexual cloning, by taking a specimen of flesh, dividing into 100 parts, and then incubating them in chambers, to produce 100 boys.

Everything discussed above, especially the last proof(LOL) is millenias ahead of modern western civilization. So the only reasonable and the only conclusion that can be reached that there were hi-tech civilizations in the past. Why should the western civilization have hot air balloons, then less than 200 years later - jet propulsion; but, the ancients, and not just the Vedic Aryans, but entire civilization at the time - can't have solar ion engines and lasers, when they have flight(hot air ballons?) knowledge of electrochemistry, particle physics, light physics - not even in a thouand years.

The most obvious and simple answer is that a hi-tech civilization did indeed exist. It explains everything. However, if you want to argue aliens, that's up to you.

[edit on 28-2-2005 by Indigo_Child]

Indigo_Child - your posts are so long, and full of so many amazing revalations, that debating them is like nailing a jelly to a wall - frustrating and ultimately pointless. You haven't posted much in the way of references to any of your claims, so without blind trust I can't take them on board.

I don't mean this rudely, it is just much easier within the confines of a discussion board to keep to one point and then move on to the next.

Could we go through each of your "proofs" in turn?

I would be particulary interested to see the evidence for:

Human asexual cloning, by taking a specimen of flesh, dividing into 100 parts, and then incubating them in chambers, to produce 100 boys.

As this seems like a very crude, if not "magical" description of cloning. Could you show me the references for this? I'd be particulary interested in the science itself.

Ingigo, I don't believe that by not immediately buying into anothers theory that I'm not denying ignorance. You make some great points and have obviously done a great deal of research but I personally am still a little sceptical. It's not anything against your theories, it's just my way of finding what I believe to be the truth. I do believe in a lot that you speak of such as ancient civilizations being much more advanced than we give them credit. I think this is where I get so sceptical with your beliefs though. I mean, how advanced do you believe that these civilizations were? Were they on par with our current civilization or would you say, the world of like 200 years ago? 400 years ago? 1,000 years ago?

Blackguard XIII says:

"the incans had balloons, remember "

Uncle Joe says:

"Incas, using ballons were able to mark out where they wanted their markings to go..."

I've not seen anything that says that the Incas or their precursors had balloons, whether capable of carrying a person or not.

Do you have any links to this?

I checked this out a bit further. The only thing I saw on a search for "Nazca Prehistoric Balloon" included this from

exn.ca...

"No spectacular engineering feat

Since many of the drawings must be viewed from the air to be seen in their entirety, the task of getting such large figures so perfectly proportioned and the lines so straight was thought to have required an observer from above to guide the drawings. This led some to hypothesize that the Nazcans may have been capable of flight!" (See sidebar)

"But Dr. Persis B. Clarkson, an archeologist and geoglyph expert at the University of Winnipeg says the technology required was very easy and straightforward. 'It was not a difficult technology... all you need is the will.' As Clarkson explains, all it took was careful and diligent attention to sight lines."

"For the straight lines, two wooden stakes could be used to guide the placement of a third stake along the line. One person 'sights along' the first two stakes and instructs a second person where to place the third stake. Strings could also have been used to help ensure the lines were straight. This process could be repeated for hundreds of kilometres with due diligence."

Now the "sidebar' discussed above is pretty interesting, since it shows (at least to my satisfaction) that the pre-Incas actually had the cloth that was close enough to being airtight. A couple of modern people actually built a hot-air balloon using that same ancient materials and technology and it got off the ground and went up to about 400 feet for about ten minutes. One of those guys was Julian Nott, who is probably the greatest living balloonist and a very credible researcher.

But showing that something can theoretically be done is not any sort of evidence that it was done, as Thor Heyerdahl learned to his dismay when the scientific establishment blew his hypotheses off.

Anyway, if anyone has any more data or links to such stuff, I'd like to find out.

Fatherlukedude, I apologise for not mentioning sources and references. This is because, I have provided all the data in the other threads, especially the main one, "Absolute proof: Ancient Indian civilization existed" it is 150 pages. However, I will create an index later to help people sift through the mountains of information.

I will, however come some from the "10th proof"

Regarding the human cloninng:

In Adi Parva(Adi chapter) of the Mahabharata, the Kauravas(a crucial family in the story) were created after the queen Gandhari delivered after two years of pregnancy a ball of flesh. The help of a sage, Dwapayan was then seeked and he divided into one hundred parts and treated it with herbs, ghee(i.e. chemicals) The pieces were then covered with cloth and kept in a cool chamber and incubated for two years, out of which 100 boys were born all of the same age. This was first brought into light by Dr Matapurkar from the Delhi Mualana Azad medical college, who says that they were indeed cloned.

Interesting this kind of cloning is identical to how plants are cloned. What is very telling about this story, that they knew that a single cell carries the code for an entire human being. Further more, it not magical, it is some kind of scientific process. There was no Rishi who used used magical incantations to materialise 100 boys. It was a long 2 year process of incubation. Now as the Mahabharata is now proven to be a real event and the Kauravas were the most important family in the story. It would therefore mean it is very likely the cloning was a real event.
Source: www1.timesofindia.indiatimes.com...

Consciousness embedded weapon systems:

In Mahabharata, the Arjuna uses weapons that have their own intelligence - not just smart - but intelligent. Each weapon has their own role and power and when released they seek out their target themselves. Krishna uses one to kill a king Salva who had acquired a highly advanced flying machine from another race, called the Danavas, which was also operated by artifical intelligence - mechanical Danavas. Salava's craft's had unusual abilities it could cause holograms and even become invisible, and was causing a lot of havoc to Krishna's side . So, Krishna employs a special weapon "sun like missiles" that seeks out sound and destroys the craft.

Artificial intelligence:

An android is called a yantra-purusa(machine man) and can behave like a human being, but is really an artifically created machine. In the Buddhistic Bhaisajva Vatu, an account is given of a painter who goes to Yavana country to visit a teacher of mechanical engineering. Thereupon, he meets an android girl, who washes his feet, who he mistakes for human, but she can't speak. More such accounts are given of android palace guards and even an entire city of androids presided by a human being from a control center in the palace.

There are also lesser advanced mechanical contraptions that adorned palaces.
Source: www.skepticfiles.org...

Space travel and time dilation.

There are several accounts of kings and sages going out into space on space ships or by astral projection. In one sch account a king goes to the realm of the god Brahama to seek his help on choosing a husband for his daughter. Brahma is at the time listening to a musical performance by the Ghandarvas and asks him to wait. When the performance is over, the king approaches him with his question, and Brahma laughs. He tells him that the prospective husbands for his daughter he was considering, no longer exist on Earth. That not even their sons, and their grand sons and so many generations after them exist. Their names cannot even be heard. He said that 160 million years on Earth had already elapsed, but according to Brahama Loka(universe/place/planet) only 19 min had passed. According to other Loka time was still slower relative to Earth, but was many factors less. For instance in Svarga-loka, 1 year of their time is 360 of ouor own.

Another account of space travel is by Yudhistra who ascends into the heaven through space on a space craft of great efflugence.

Source: 216.239.59.104...:FZ4_bqyoFuIJ:www.rsdml.com/PDF/On%2520Conceiving%2520the%2520Inconceivable.pdf+kakudmi+brahma+time&hl=en

Weapons of mass destruction:

I've covered some weapons already, such as the sound seeking missiles above. There are also accounts of thought-seeking weapins, weapons that cause uncosciousness. Indra had a special laser beam dart weapon that worked by a circular reflector producing a shaft of light and vaporizing anything in it's path. There were also weapons that were so powerful they completely obliterated cities -- "an iron bolt, charged with the power of the universe, rose with the splendour of thousands of suns, an incandesent column of fire and smoke" etc

So, what the Vedic Aryans call history is almost like what we would consider a sci-fi epic. And isn't it amazing that there is proof that the Mahabharata actually took place and there places all over the world that show signs of nuclear blasts, especially the ancient Rishi city of Mohenjadaro, which was one of the cities that was destroyed in the war with WMD. This is also consistent with all the other evidence, and these aircraft and weapons are even mentioned in other texts.

Source: www.atlantisquest.com...

``

Question to
Indigo__Child
mood: Amused

~~~~

Aren't you really just entering Phase II of your 'marketing program' ??

Originally posted by FredT

Originally posted by MaskedAvatar
History needs to be rewritten at times, so that cradles of civilization such as Mesopotamia and Persia can be forgotten, to be villified as part of an "axis of evil" for the self-serving purposes of corrupt warmongers.

Bravo Masked Avatar, you continue to amaze me in your ability to work in anti-Bush rants regardless of the topic. No doubt if the sun goes Nova the last post on this board would you blaming the Bush administration.

I see no mention of Bush in my post. Why did you infer it so?

Rewriting and eliminating histories is part of all cultural revolutions that breed ignorance.

The topic is "Not many are denying ignorance". Bravo to you also Fred T, for being in the majority described by that title. It is important to side with some majority, there is safety in numbers and ignorance.

Skychief, I can understand that, and I do not expect you to believe. What you want to believe is your choice, but as long as you are not doing what few have been doing, dismissing it or ridiculing it, when there is such an overwhelming mass of evidence. You asked me a question, how advanced do I think they were. Well, considering the evidence in a very brief summary:

1. A solar ion engine written in an ancient text, leading to the flight of the plane before a highly distinguished audience and the event published.

2. An entire text on aeronautics dealing with strategy, materials, on board components and devices, technologies, food provisions, aircraft uniform. Which is studied by the Indian government, Indian aeronautics defence agencies, technology and science institutes, space research organizations and new materials are developed and the chemical reports published.

3. An entire text on cosmology that teaches about the expanding universes and the big bang and gives directions on creating a light spectrometer, and even gives measurements for all kinds of radiation that has been created at NML India and published in Indian scientific journals.

4. A form of computer notation as advanced as Modern Backus-Naur-For, binary numbers and hashing alogirthms. Ancient factories for zinc and steel. Brain surgery and plastic surgery. And physics so advanced that it discusses particles, subatomic particles, quantum dynamics, energy, plasma and mass equivalence related by the frequency and space-time relativity.

5. Ancient cities with modern sanitation and plubming systems and planned cities, with very advanced engineering. Not, even in India, but elsewhere, such as Egyptians and Incans.

6. Thousands of references of ultra-advanced technology in ancient literature, but more specifically in ancient sanskrit literature, and the fact that everything has a scientific principle. The transmutation of the metal of bells gold, by some freak coincidence, is composed of the alloys whose atomic numbers combine to form gold. The cloning of humans is by incubating cell samples in chambers for 2 years. The adaptive camoflage technology, also called cloaking, has only recently been developed by JPL. Yet, it is described exactly in the VS, and by some freak coincidence again, the material described is a silicon minerals used for creating photocells and micoprocessors and it works exactly the same way as the device in the VS. Heck, even time dilation effects of travelling space craft.

7. And finally, a perfect scientific explanation of the creation of the universe, combining all of the main theories of modern cosmology. Working out the exact the age of the Earth - the exact speed of the light - even the exact life of the Earth - as well the exact method life developed, the reaction of heat and water to form the first germ of life and it then evolving over the course of 860,000 inferior life forms, even the order is specified of fish - frog - snake ...... ape - man. These are all facts. Does that not give these texts credibility?

What do you think I should think?

[edit on 28-2-2005 by Indigo_Child]

Just to stick to "proof 10":

In Adi Parva(Adi chapter) of the Mahabharata, the Kauravas(a crucial family in the story) were created after the queen Gandhari delivered after two years of pregnancy a ball of flesh. The help of a sage, Dwapayan was then seeked and he divided into one hundred parts and treated it with herbs, ghee(i.e. chemicals) The pieces were then covered with cloth and kept in a cool chamber and incubated for two years, out of which 100 boys were born all of the same age. This was first brought into light by Dr Matapurkar from the Delhi Mualana Azad medical college, who says that they were indeed cloned.

I'm sorry, but I don't think most reasonable people are going to take this as proof of scientific cloning knowledge. It doesn't mention anything of cell biology, embryology, DNA or any of the other basics you would need for cloning.

Aside from that it is just plain wrong. You cannot take a lump of flesh, divide it into 100 pieces, rub them with herbs, put them under a cloth in a cool room and end up with 100 humans. That's not how cloning works. It just sounds to me like a magical folk tale, and I think most people would agree.

I personally believe in the existance of highly evolved ancient civilizations. But again my beliefs do nothing to deny ignorance. But I did notice a responce to this post by someone that I like to see disproved as many times as possible as this mod is the most ignorance embracing person on this site, who usually runs and hides when proven wrong.

And I love to see all the posts supporting the theory of advanced civilizations.

Phae

Originally posted by FatherLukeDuke
Just to stick to "proof 10":

In Adi Parva(Adi chapter) of the Mahabharata, the Kauravas(a crucial family in the story) were created after the queen Gandhari delivered after two years of pregnancy a ball of flesh. The help of a sage, Dwapayan was then seeked and he divided into one hundred parts and treated it with herbs, ghee(i.e. chemicals) The pieces were then covered with cloth and kept in a cool chamber and incubated for two years, out of which 100 boys were born all of the same age. This was first brought into light by Dr Matapurkar from the Delhi Mualana Azad medical college, who says that they were indeed cloned.

I'm sorry, but I don't think most reasonable people are going to take this as proof of scientific cloning knowledge. It doesn't mention anything of cell biology, embryology, DNA or any of the other basics you would need for cloning.

Aside from that it is just plain wrong. You cannot take a lump of flesh, divide it into 100 pieces, rub them with herbs, put them under a cloth in a cool room and end up with 100 humans. That's not how cloning works. It just sounds to me like a magical folk tale, and I think most people would agree.

Asexual human cloning does not exist. We are not capable of doing that - we are not even capable of cloning humans yet. So to say that something is wrong is very presumptious. Further more, it is not a scientific text, rather a story of how they were created. You know, if a lay person was going to describe particle beams, he's not going to talk about mathematical equations, he's going to say a shaft of light emerged from a circular reflector and then vaporized the target. In the same way it is described:

The Rishi divides the flesh in 100 parts - treats them with nutrients or chemicals - incubates them in cool chambers for 2 years.

Now, look at this:

More recently, scientists have been able to clone plants by taking pieces of specialized roots, breaking them up into root cells and growing the root cells in a nutrient-rich culture. In culture, the specialized cells become unspecialized (dedifferentiated) into calluses. The calluses can then be stimulated with the appropriate plant hormones to grow into new plants that are identical to the original plant from which the root pieces were taken.

The specialized are roots - broken up into root cells - treated in a nutrient rich environment - incubated and cloned plants are produced.

Further more, a reasonable person would agree that a single cell contains the DNA code for a human being and therefore it would be theoretically possible to produce a human being from a cell. And 100 cells would produce 100 humans. Which is what has happened.

However, this alone, although enough to convince someone with a Phd in stem cell research, does not convince me by standing on it's own, but when seen collectively with the mass of evidence, it does. Further still, microbiology is implied from the religious texts where the first germ of life is created by heat and water and then evolves. So, it would only be consistent that this is indeed describing cloning.

[edit on 28-2-2005 by Indigo_Child]

Asexual huma cloning does not exist. We are not capable of doing that - we are not even capable of cloning humans yet. So to say that something is wrong is very presumptious.

I don't think it is presumptious to say that if we do manage it, it won't involve putting lumps of flesh under a cloth in a cool room for 2 years. I suspect the technology may need to be considerably more advanced than this.

I don't think it is presumptious to say that if we do manage it, it won't involve putting lumps of flesh under a cloth in a cool room for 2 years. I suspect the technology may need to be considerably more advanced than this.

Now, rather than being presumptious, you are misrepresenting. It does not say they are placed in a room, but in a cool chamber that is sealed with a cloth - what kind of cloth, it could be a special air breathing fabric, for all we know.

And if you are going to clone a cell 100 times, then you would need 100 cells, correct? It sounds right to me, it's even similar to how we clone plants today, and a steam cell reseacher with a phd, also seems to think so.

If you don't mind me asking, are you actually more qualified them the stem cell researcher? I am not trying to undermine you, but maybe someone whose life profession is microbiology and biotechnology and has a doctorate in it, is more qualified to say what is cloning and what isn't?

Now, magic to me, would be if she went to the Rishi and the Rishi cast a spell and manifested 100 kids, or worse still, giving the woman a special potion with she has 100 kids. However, as it is based on taking a specimen of DNA and incubating it, it sounds like science to me. To guy with a phd in stem cell research too. However, we are all welcome to our opinions. I just think you're nitpicking though - but there are only nits to pick.

[edit on 28-2-2005 by Indigo_Child]

knowledge and denying ignorance.....let me first say, I totally accept your proof of ancient indian civilization being technology advanced ect, but that's because I share a common root with you and interpreted all those stories in my own way and had an entire lifetime to considered them, since they were known since childhood.

You cannot deny ignorance of this particular subject, for several reasons, mainly the fact that our vedas are not easy accessible to the regular scholar, we cannot even prove the existence of some these texts, because of our brahmin culture. But mainly because prejudices and stigma associated with our people and culture.

I look at it this way and this why you probably won't hear me fighting too much or becoming too passionate over any one thing. We know what know, they know what they know, you can share thoughts, ideas, theories, but you cannot force anyone to see things the way you see them without absolute physical proof. But this same principle applies to how physical proof is judged and accepted. So basically Indigo be content with your knowledge, be proud that you shared it, be acceptance that some of us learned something but also that many of us didn't.

The elite in any given time in history tend to quash what has already been with their new and improved version. One only has to look at the so-called discovery of America to see how true this notion is.

Originally posted by nightbreid
The elite in any given time in history tend to quash what has already been with their new and improved version. One only has to look at the so-called discovery of America to see how true this notion is.

I unequivocally and unashamedly purloin this intelligent observation in support of my own already stated hypothesis and contribution concerning the very current rewriting of history by a gang of criminals.

I unequivocally and unashamedly purloin this intelligent observation in support of my own already stated hypothesis and contribution concerning the very current rewriting of history by a gang of criminals.

Yes, that is exactly what they are, you have so accurately descibed them - "a gang of criminals" what else do we call racist imperialists that invade sovereign countries, and are so low, that they spread lies about it's culture, that are so transparent, that it a shame that anbody would allow them to be perpetuated today - yet it is happening - and that is embracing ignorance. And this is why I think it very important we debunk his history and accept what is a more glorious history and a more united history of global civilization that is actually very empowering to know.

Yet, these criminals have distorted history just so that they can control people and not let them know what their real origins are and what we as individuals are capable off. Or, what science today, is capable of. It is this kind of control that needs to be denied.

Just think, if we accept that one day we were all from a single race, and our we all have a common ethos. No longer we would segregate humanity into races and religions, rather form a whole based on what we share, because we are share the same Vedic culture. Which is not even a religion, but a model of a knowledge driven society. In the same way we share science, which is universal.

[edit on 28-2-2005 by Indigo_Child]

that's beautiful indigo
I'm glad people still think like you, but it's not going to happen and this is coming from someone who has high hopes for mankind.
"They" cannot acknowledge that history is wrong, "They" would no longer be in control or the same stature in the world. Alot of things will have to be changed first before you get the type of acceptance of the Vedas you want.

Indigo_Child, question(s),
If many here assert that the Bible, a religious text, should not be utilized for ancient historical reference(s), would Indian religious text(s) fall under the same scrutiny? If no, then the Bible, again, a religious text, should and can be used for ancient historical purposes?




seekerof