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Brexit, Today is the Vote!

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posted on Jan, 21 2019 @ 02:00 PM
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a reply to: Freeborn

Selective in what way ?

facts are facts , they were used to highlight that we have always been at the mercy of the rich and poweful
yet some how this is snowflakey or being selective with historical facts, would you care to elaborate on what you mean by that ?




posted on Jan, 21 2019 @ 02:10 PM
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originally posted by: Flavian
a reply to: eletheia

I see it simply as honouring what we had already committed to. Or to put it another way, when we are about to start a shiny new path, it isn't a good idea to start by renaging on previous commitments. It doesn't exactly foster any goodwill.



Hmmn..... Shame the EU politicial elite don't feel the same,

*Goodwill* doesn't apparently appear in their dictionary!



posted on Jan, 21 2019 @ 02:23 PM
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a reply to: sapien82



Selective in what way ?


Facts are presented in such a way as to portray the English as bastards and responsible for all of Scotland's woes.

The reality is that the English may well have been bastards but they generally acted as enablers for one group to act out their grievances and dissatisfaction with another group.....in the cases mentioned Clan v Clan differences and disputes and Lowlanders resentment and dislike of Highlanders.
Those Acts would have been impossible without active Scottish involvement and brutality towards other Scots.
Yet Scots rarely present it that way.

Selective.



facts are facts , they were used to highlight that we have always been at the mercy of the rich and poweful


Yet there is an insistence on trying to portray as just English 'rich and powerful', the reality is very, very different.
You may recognise that, many of your countrymen fail to do so....I get the impression that is because it doesn't fit in with the 'English bastards' narrative or that 'England is responsible for all of Scotland's woes' has become engrained in the Scottish national psyche.



yet some how this is snowflakey.....


Not the selective presentation of facts, the whole people 'feeling the pain' today that their ancestors suffered centuries ago.
It wasn't directed at you....but I'm sure you understand the point.

Yes, there were injustices....there were acts of out and out barbarity that can not and should not be excused.
But no-one alive today was responsible for it and very, very few alive today have benefitted from it.....I know I certainly haven't!

It is all very snowflakey.....those bastard English, three hundred years ago they did this....it pains me so much and causes me insufferable pain....absolute bollocks.
We've all had it #, we all still have it #.....rise up above it and get the # on with it!



posted on Jan, 21 2019 @ 02:34 PM
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a reply to: Freeborn

I understand what ye mean , but not once have I said "the bastard English" or even suggested that Scotlands current crisis is entirely the result of "the bastard English"

I was simply highlighting that which you already agree with me on , we the people are always at the mercy of those who rule us ! I just so happened to use those historical facts because we were also talking about history and identity and culture.

the act of union etc, all those other acts that were detrimental to the people , did we vote for them ? no we have never agreed to any of these "acts" yet they are carried out as if by experiment at the hands of the rich and poweful !
did the people of scotland have their say in the original act of union ? no it was the choice of the lords and the church because it benefited them!

the history of the UK is rich and bloody , it seems we cant discuss it without people taking it to heart and is often the case the discussion returns to tribal grounds for some , I was using at as a tool for learning to emphasise the fact its always going to be us vs them! , its not the English , the Scots, the Welsh the Irish, its them , those who rule us the ones who always take and take and then blame it on someone else then seek to divide us !

but why prop up a system that continues to take advantage , thats why i think shutting it down and starting again is the best way forward out with the old and in with the new !



posted on Jan, 21 2019 @ 03:19 PM
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a reply to: eletheia
All the national polls seem to be always wrong and in favor of the establishment.
So if 46% of respondents in Sky's poll want to leave without a deal (which is massive anyway), it's most likely to be even higher, just as the studio audience poll showed.

We just need to leave without a deal
Copy relevant EU law into British law (workers rights etc)
Strike a trade deal with the EU without giving away any democratic rights
Get back to our domestic problems/policies

Overtime parliament can get rid of all the bad laws, as can the government if they put it in their manifesto's at general elections. Then we need to change our voting system as 'first past the post' clearly doesn't work.



posted on Jan, 22 2019 @ 02:04 AM
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a reply to: 83Liberty

The problem is that you have a population who voted leave the EU, but a majority of MPs who want to stay. They need to find some way to over-turn the referendum, and as there's no consensus on how to do that you have dysfunction. The other issue is the Labour party playing crass politics.

However flawed the governments proposal is, you have to give May credit for actually trying to leave.



posted on Jan, 22 2019 @ 06:41 AM
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a reply to: sapien82


I understand what ye mean , but not once have I said "the bastard English" or even suggested that Scotlands current crisis is entirely the result of "the bastard English"


Of course not.


But its an attitude that many Scots adopt and something they infer rather than say outright.

Similar with the selective presentation of facts I mentioned; things are persistently shown as English acts of injustice on the Scottish people. Of course there's an element of that and to suggest otherwise would simply wrong. But how often do Scottish commentators fail to mention the Scots on Scots aspect? Nearly every single time as far as I can see.



I was simply highlighting that which you already agree with me on , we the people are always at the mercy of those who rule us !


Definitely.
So what are 'we' going to do about it?



.... the act of union etc, all those other acts that were detrimental to the people ,


Were they detrimental?
What were the options available at the time?



.....did we vote for them ?....


Of course not, none of us even had the vote back then.



.... the history of the UK is rich and bloody ,....


Same as most places as far as I can tell.



it seems we cant discuss it without people taking it to heart and is often the case the discussion returns to tribal grounds for some ,.....


Such is the nature of man.....and that is what 'they' exploit all the time.



.... I was using at as a tool for learning to emphasise the fact its always going to be us vs them! ,


Preaching to the converted my friend.



its not the English , the Scots, the Welsh the Irish, its them ,....


English nationalism is demonised.
Scottish, Irish and Welsh nationalism is lauded.
As part of Scottish, Irish and Welsh nationalism the English are quite often portrayed as the devil incarnate and as being responsible for all the ills in those respective country's.
It plays along with the divide and conquer agenda and quite ironically helps preserve the status quo.
There is a growing resentment in England of this attitude, further strengthening their control.

But some people just refuse to see past the romanticised notions that are peddled to them and wallow in the bigotry and division.



.....those who rule us the ones who always take and take and then blame it on someone else then seek to divide us !


Alas, very true.



.... but why prop up a system that continues to take advantage , thats why i think shutting it down and starting again is the best way forward out with the old and in with the new !


Again, preaching to the converted my friend.

So what are we going to do other than talk?



posted on Jan, 22 2019 @ 07:02 AM
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We voted to leave the EU and the Scots voted no to independence. why can't that be it?

Slightly off topic - what has happened to the Banter Cafe?



posted on Jan, 22 2019 @ 07:09 AM
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originally posted by: oldcarpy
We voted to leave the EU and the Scots voted no to independence. why can't that be it?

Slightly off topic - what has happened to the Banter Cafe?


The banter has been hijacked by the 'Prince Charlie stole our shoes brigade', such is the way!



posted on Jan, 22 2019 @ 08:18 AM
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I am of the understanding that the house of lords have voted to allow the repeal of article50 no-deal brexit.

from previous knowledge of parliamentary matters it seems the cart is before the horse.

after an overwhelming vote in parliament for article 50 some two years or so ago, it seems parliamentarians have flipped-flopped and repeal of the no deal wto brexit is in the offing.

f. uk



posted on Jan, 22 2019 @ 09:12 AM
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a reply to: midicon

its relevant because , we all want change , yet nothing has been changed in over 300 years despite us being told it has changed for the better , the mantra of " we are better together" was being used relentlessly , but clearly that isnt the case

it should be " we are better together for the benefit of a few"



posted on Jan, 22 2019 @ 11:08 AM
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Satire:


edit on 22-1-2019 by ipsedixit because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 22 2019 @ 12:00 PM
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edit on 22-1-2019 by midicon because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 27 2019 @ 04:07 PM
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The following information, put just this way, is new to me and I wonder why this sort of thing has not been given the media attention it would seem to deserve.

www.theguardian.com...


It has been claimed that the UK could simply move to WTO terms if there is no deal with the EU. But Anneli Howard, a specialist in EU and competition law at Monckton Chambers and a member of the bar’s Brexit working group, believes this isn’t true.

“No deal means leaving with nothing,” she said. “The anticipated recession will be worse than the 1930s, let alone 2008. It is impossible to say how long it would go on for. Some economists say 10 years, others say the effects could be felt for 20 or even 30 years: even ardent Brexiters agree it could be decades.”

The government’s own statistics have estimated that under the worst case no-deal scenario, GDP would be 10.7% lower than if the UK stays in the EU, in 15 years.

edit on 27-1-2019 by ipsedixit because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 27 2019 @ 04:34 PM
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originally posted by: fakedirt
I am of the understanding that the house of lords have voted to allow the repeal of article50 no-deal brexit.


Your understanding is wrong. The House of Lords cannot unilaterally repeal law.

They debate and consider Bills and put in amendments which go through a convoluted process, or voting to throw the Bill out, although that's a rarity as the Lords cannot stop the "will" of the Commons. The modified Bill then goes back to the Commons. There is then a process that goes backwards and forwards until finally there is agreement.

Here's the Bill that came about from Article 50. It's law. European Union (Notification of Withdrawal) Act 2017



posted on Jan, 27 2019 @ 06:06 PM
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originally posted by: ipsedixit
The following information, put just this way, is new to me and I wonder why this sort of thing has not been given the media attention it would seem to deserve.

www.theguardian.com...


Whats new about that?? just more scaremongering. Remember George Osborne

and his threat of a mega austerity budget immediately after a leave result?

Anneli Howerd is a junior lawyer..... there are lawyers, and there are lawyers

It is only her opinion.

There are many remainers who are wanting to have a second referendum as they

believe people have changed there minds and another referendum would lead to

a remain vote.

However I believe they are wrong...... again only an opinion, my opinion.....Here

is the opinion of a 'former' remainer Dan Hodges a reporter.


DAN HODGES: I was a die-hard Remainer. But arrogant MPs have made me a hard Brexiteer

I've worked in and around politics all my life. My mother was an MP. I've consistently attempted to fight the lazy caricature of British parliamentarians as venal, dishonest charlatans.

From a referendum in which 17.4 million people voted to leave the European Union, to the point where former Ministers of the Crown are sneaking around the Palace of Westminster, convening surreptitious conclaves to conceive ever more complex procedural devices to undermine Britain's departure.

But each one stated they were obliged to honour the will of the people as expressed in the referendum. Four months later, the vast majority were returned to Parliament on additional manifesto pledges to respect the result.

Yet, this week, those same MPs are preparing to stick two fingers up to their voters and, without any fresh mandate, 'extend' Article 50.
Or, in reality, kick the verdict of the British people into the weeds.

When will the penny finally drop? When will Yvette Cooper (whose constituents voted 70 per cent Leave) and her colleagues realise this cowardice – this abject refusal to clearly and confidently honour the instructions they were given in the referendum – created the antipathy towards politicians that led to Brexit in the first place.
Many MPs think that, by blocking all other avenues, voters will opt to stay, rather than risk No Deal. But they are dangerously deluded. If forced to choose between No Brexit or No Deal, most people will opt for No Deal. And I know this because I'm one of them.

I was a committed Remainer. But this morning I'm now a hard-Brexiteer. I finally understand where the anger comes from.

Thank you for that, Dominic Grieve. Thank you for nothing.

www.dailymail.co.uk...


I am personally coming across that attitude and seeing it in many political

programmes and debates.

To the increasing call of saying "Take the *no deal* off the table" my answer

to that is take *the remain* off the table!



posted on Jan, 27 2019 @ 08:55 PM
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a reply to: eletheia

Why don't Brexiters give us an analysis of Britain's economic situation to counter the sort of thing seen in my previous post. Brexiters have said that a "no deal" situation is not an impediment to the economic welfare of the UK because Britain will simply revert to WTO rules. The expert I cited, above, says it's not so simple. Let's hear the argument from Brexiters that, no, in fact it is that simple. I don't see it.

People who are reacting on an emotional basis, because they don't think their MP should have changed a position on the subject are being unreasonable. The referendum was fought in the dark. The realities of the situation were not well understood or explained. Sticking to a position that one now regards as wrong would be irrational. Expecting an MP to do so, particularly on so momentous a decision is not mature.
edit on 27-1-2019 by ipsedixit because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 27 2019 @ 11:44 PM
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a reply to: ipsedixit
The so called 'experts' are Remainers and the article is full of could's and maybe's, and "it's too difficult" mentality. They don't know what will happen themselves, otherwise they wouldn't have to resort to using such language.

They are also too late. We have already voted to Leave!

It was up to the Remain campaign to highlight these risks to the British public in the EU referendum, and they had failed miserably. They were too busy fear-mongering and stupidly kept bringing up that "£350m a week to the NHS" crap that everyone already knew wasn't true anyway. The Remainers bought up that message in debates more so that the Leave campaign did, it was comical.

I voted Leave in hope of just having a simple free trade agreement with the EU. It would be good for the EU, good for the UK and it would be good for all the people in Europe, but the politicians on both sides are useless.



posted on Jan, 28 2019 @ 04:28 AM
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originally posted by: ipsedixit
a reply to: eletheia

Why don't Brexiters give us an analysis of Britain's economic situation to counter the sort of thing seen in my previous post.


Because all that is all supposition..... NOBODY KNOWS ANYTHING FOR FACT

And thats a fact. Its no more accurate than a weather forecast and they have

science for it!

Remember all the predictions against a leave vote? I'm still waiting .......




Brexiters have said that a "no deal" situation is not an impediment to the economic welfare of the UK because Britain will simply revert to WTO rules. The expert I cited, above, says it's not so simple. Let's hear the argument from Brexiters that, no, in fact it is that simple. I don't see it.


Contrary to the patronising attitude of *remainers* who are predicting the end

of the world as we know it, Brexiteers are not unaware that we will be going

into the UNKNOWN but for them ANYTHING is better than remaining

in the EU. On a smaller scale.......


'Anyone who has been in a bad marriage will tell you that even though

it might have been difficult to get out of it and it was really hard in the beginning

it was well worth it in the end.' ........ I was one of those


Just because something is difficult doesn't mean the UK remaining in an intractable

entrenched, disadvantageous status quo.




People who are reacting on an emotional basis, because they don't think their MP should have changed a position on the subject are being unreasonable.


The MP's are not there to represent themselves they are there to represent

the people who put them there.




The referendum was fought in the dark. The realities of the situation were not well understood or explained.



The only people who agree with that statement are those who want to remain.

I have never come across a 'leaver' pivately or publicly who would agree with that.

Did you not see my post above yours?

An intelligent *remainer* is now a dedicated *Brexiteer ..... and there are many

many more of them!!...




Sticking to a position that one now regards as wrong would be irrational. Expecting an MP to do so, particularly on so momentous a decision is not mature.


WHO?? regards as wrong ..... WHO is that *one* certainly not me or other leavers.

Typical patronising attitude of a remainer who believes they have a superior

knowledge, know more, are better educated and thinks anyone with a different

viewpoint are stupid.





edit on 28-1-2019 by eletheia because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 28 2019 @ 04:30 AM
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a reply to: paraphi

apologies to all on the matter. my statement came from-
www.parliament.uk... -where the lords passed a second motion regarding no-deal as unacceptable. it was an opinion for the record.

f.



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