Brexit, Today is the Vote!

a reply to: shooterbrody

No.

Why would they?

Tell me this whats the alternative to another referendum?

Mays deal won't get through, so what happens then, if not another round of debate?

A decision will have to be made eventually and eventually is right around the corner.

a reply to: OtherSideOfTheCoin

Depends how they do it, if they just rip up the article 50 declaration and go back to business as usual before 2016 then yeah, its a slap in the face of democracy.

We voted to come out of the EU, if we are left with any legally binding ties to the monstrosity that is the EU then that will be viewed as a failure to abide with the results of the referendum and as such the British people.

Now I know you and I will disagree on this......

You know me too well my friend.

...... but I think that a second referendum is democratic,....

Like hell it is.
I fail to understand the logic....a second referendum is democratic but the first one wasn't, why?

We can not have a second referendum on the same thing until the first one is enacted upon....that's pretty bloody common sense to me!

And what if the second referendum votes to Remain.....will the calls of Brexit supporters for a third and deciding ballot be respected and honoured?
You know as well as I do that it wouldn't, so I ask again why would the result of a second referendum be more valid than the result of the first referendum?

if parliament is unable to deliver on the 2016 referendum.

I'm no genius, not by a long shot....but I could have managed this process better, far better.
If they don't deliver it will have been by design.....and it highlights just why our current party political system and electoral procedures are no longer fit for purpose and why we need urgent and radical reform.

a reply to: shooterbrody

You asked me if there has been any instance in the UK of a referendum result not being adhered to and I have pointed out to you that it has happened in the past the 1979 Scottish devolution referendum.

There is your answer.

a reply to: Freeborn

"If they don't deliver it will have been by design"

Bingo!

a reply to: Freeborn

I dont actually think a second referendum is a "good" idea as such rather I think its fast becoming the only possibility that retains some semblance of democracy.

A no-deal is bad, its not going to happen, parliament will do everything they can to stop it and that could just force a retraction of article 50 which would be a slap in the face to democracy.

Now I know you and I disagree one this, its a matter of opinion I guess and I totally get the arguments against a second referendum however, with government about to enter into full gridlock on how to proceed with Brexit then I think they should go back to the people. It might not happen.

Lets wait to see how events in the next few hours play out and take it from there.

If they don't deliver it will have been by design.....

I think that there are lots of people in parliament who are very much in support for Brexit on all sides of the house. That said however I do think that there could be an argument for Brexit's failing having been engineered.

Getting back to the vote tonight, which is of course the topic of this thread.

What do people think about this as a possibility.

MPs might vote for it because they feel it's the only way to deliver on Brexit?

Not saying I agree or disagree, just setting the cat amongst the pidgins to see what people think.

a reply to: andy06shake

But the UK is part of the EU, so technically......

And therein lies the root of the whole problem.

Until we free ourselves of EU dictates we will not be masters in our OWN country.

The UK voted for membership of a Common Market.....at no point was political union mentioned.
We don't want political union, that is the very crux of the matter.

Why should some unelected EU Commissars be allowed to overrule the UK's Right to Self-Determination and DICTATE to us what we can or can not do in our own country?

This whole farce and #show has shown our government and politicians up to be the egotistical, self-centred, self-aggrandising scumbags we always suspected they were and the EU to be the uncompromising, bullying, undemocratic, amoral autocrats we always knew they were.

Its time for a full system re-boot.

They've been working frantically in order to come up with not the best deal for the UK in an exit from the European Union, but in how to not have a Brexit and yet also look like they want one.
The No Deal was probably the only thing that many people who voted to leave could hold on to, as it was clear from early on that our politicians generally didn't seem to want it.
Project fear before the vote quickly turned into project smear afterwards, with anyone that voted to leave being branded as racist or bigoted. Then project incompetence started, "Look we're trying but we can't do anything"

So here we are, a deal that is worse for both sides so no-one with a brain will vote for it. NO DEAL off the table due to some jiggery pokery from the speaker of the house and some crafty rule bending. The result will be a second referendum, because they feel that project fear MK2 will make more of an impact. And with most of the media running the propoganda they're right.

a reply to: OtherSideOfTheCoin

A no-deal is bad, its not going to happen, parliament will do everything they can to stop it and that could just force a retraction of article 50 which would be a slap in the face to democracy.

We were handed another bargaining chip today in the news that Germany's economy is slowing.
No deal means we trade under WTO rules and get to make our own deals while doing that , it's a short term option and means we won't be part of the Customs Union which will keep us still be tied to the EU.

We won't have to give the EU the £39 Billion divorce bill either.

a reply to: gortex

£39 Billion over however many years thats going to be isnt really a massive reason to support a no deal. Neither do I think are the options that operating under WTO rules could offer us. It takes years to establish trade deals, no deal would harm the British economy.

I have seen zero evidence that a no-deal would be good for the British people when looked at in balance with the dire consequences that would come with no-deal.

Bear in mind, Mrs May postponed the vote on 10 December because she knew she would lose. The time she has had since then has been to try to get a better deal or persuade some to switch.

If she loses by the 225 she's predicted to, that's some powers of persuasion or negotiation she has.

a reply to: Tortuga

Bear in mind, Mrs May postponed the vote on 10 December because she knew she would lose.

That actually makes me think that she knows that she will lose the vote and then the question becomes what her plan is going to be. She's had a month to think this over so does she have some kind of plan that is going to be revealed after the vote.

a reply to: OtherSideOfTheCoin

To call the whole idea a mess is an insult to the word mess.

The Un-united Kingdom hasn't a clue, Like all politicians they have no idea how to govern anymore, to get into politics you only need two sheep skins- one in obfuscation and the other in prestidigitation-which is the act of using money and making it disappear-something all Politicians are great at.

What will happen? more bureaucratic red crap-it's time to $h!t or get off the pot IMO.

a reply to: OtherSideOfTheCoin

If there was a 2nd Referendum ( which i doubt ) and the result is again to leave, then we will be back to were we are again.

If the result was to remain, there would be people on the streets, feeling they had been cheated.

No scenario has a good outcome.

a reply to: Freeborn

"Its time for a full system re-boot."

Could not agree more, but if that's the case we should do more than just Brexit.

As there is not much point in replacing the tyrants in Brussels with our own homegrown Tory bastard variety once again.

The problem with democratic politics is that one side always wins, and its the same side only slightly different wrapping paper that's none the less corrupt to the core.

I don't know what a viable alternative would be all the same but i do know that real change generally requires blood.

a reply to: alldaylong

If there was a 2nd Referendum ( which i doubt ) and the result is again to leave, then we will be back to were we are again.

Not really, it depends entirely on the question, you make it a legally binding vote, you make the question simply "Leave with no deal or remain"

originally posted by: OtherSideOfTheCoin
a reply to: Tortuga

Bear in mind, Mrs May postponed the vote on 10 December because she knew she would lose.

That actually makes me think that she knows that she will lose the vote and then the question becomes what her plan is going to be. She's had a month to think this over so does she have some kind of plan that is going to be revealed after the vote.

A second referendum, that was always the plan. But she has to look as if she is being dragged kicking and screaming towards it so as to keep up the pretence of democracy.
A democratic decision was made by the people and the servants of the people have had plenty of time to sort this out. We have MPs who are ignoring the majority of their constituents, they seem to have forgotten they are there representing them.

a reply to: OtherSideOfTheCoin

I dont actually think a second referendum is a "good" idea as such rather I think its fast becoming the only possibility that retains some semblance of democracy.

But I think it undermines democracy.
The people democratically voted to come out of the EU.....no strings, nothing. Simple, come out of the EU.
That has not been implemented....either by design or incompetence, or a mixture of both.

Any second vote undermined the validity of the first.
So I ask on what grounds was the first vote invalid or undemocratic?

We should be venting our anger at the #ing scumbags, idiots and treasonous wretches in Parliament who have failed us and led this country to this sorry state.

A no-deal is bad, its not going to happen,.....

27% of all German manufactured cars are sold in the UK.
Without British tourists the economy of Spain, Portugal and probably Greece would go bust.

Come out in a No Deal.
Don't buy their cars.
Don't go there on holiday......they'll come running to us for a deal.

..... parliament will do everything they can to stop it

They will indeed.

As for tonight; as I said before.....May's deal has no chance of getting accepted.

I suspect an extension on the March 29th deadline will be sought and somehow ultimately the British people will be betrayed for the simple reason the political elites and their supporters don't want any change to the status quo.....they don't give a toss about the wishes of the British people or their cares, concerns and best interests.

An appalling situation to be in and a damning indictment of our society.

a reply to: OtherSideOfTheCoin

Leave with no deal

As i said,if that was the outcome of a 2nd Referendum, then we would be back to where we are.

When May's deal is rejected tonight, we are in the land of leaving with no deal, as that is the only option left. The EU have said it's the deal offered or nothing.

a reply to: Tortuga

A second referendum, that was always the plan. But she has to look as if she is being dragged kicking and screaming towards it so as to keep up the pretence of democracy.

You know this sums up what I think could happen and it puts me in a very difficult position.

On the one hand I support a second referendum yet on the other hand if we do get one, this isn't how I think anyone would want to get it. I do think that they have a plant to force a second referendum.

What I think would have been better would have been to have said all along that the British people would get their say on what the final deal would have been all along. If they had done that then this debate about a second referendum probably would never have been an issue.