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The "Walls Don't Work" Argument is the Stupidest One Yet.

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posted on Jan, 10 2019 @ 03:01 PM
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a reply to: dug88

If the wall saves just one family from being torn apart, because someone was killed by an illegal immigrant, $23B is well worth it.




posted on Jan, 10 2019 @ 03:02 PM
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originally posted by: Propagandalf

originally posted by: dug88

originally posted by: Propagandalf

originally posted by: dug88

originally posted by: Propagandalf

originally posted by: dug88

originally posted by: Propagandalf

originally posted by: dug88
How would a wall have stopped these 600,000 people from being in america illegally in 2017?


The wall is being proposed along the US/Mexico border, not at legal points of entry.


Yeah...but the wall is proposed as a solution to illegal immigration. I'm guessing less than 600,000 people crossed that border in the same time period. I just think the wall is probably the least effective solution to the problem rather than that it won't work. It's a bunch of money to stop a very small percentage of illegal immigration when less money could be spent on more effective measures.


Obviously the wall is concerned with those who refuse to enter through legal points of entry along the southern border. I don't think anyone implied it is going to stop those who overstay their welcome.


Yeah....that's worth $23 billion. The arguments I see is that...illegal immigration takes jobs, it allows criminals into the country and generally lowers the quality of life for people in said country. Personally...if my government were going to spend $23 billion to tackle such a problem, I would prefer something that actually decreases the numbers of illegal immigrants within the country and deals with with mass corruption allowing them to stay rather than these mystery people running across open desert into america.

But I guess it appeals more to fearful people to have a giant wall proposed than something like...we will spend money enforcing deportations and cracking down on businesses hiring and aiding illegal immigrants in the country or implementing proper border checks or ya know useful solutions that will actually decrease the number of illegal immigrants actually currently detrimenting your country.


It's a one time cost, excluding maintenance. In 2019 they are spending about the same on general border security. That's 22 percent higher than 2017. That number keeps climbing every year.

You'd rather people enter the country illegally without papers, without a security check, from the third-world, bringing in anything they want, than someone who enters legally but overstays their welcome?


No...I think whatever is guaranteed to stop and deal with the largest amount of people for the least amount of money is ideal.


Nothing works better and is more cost-effective than a massive barrier.


Alright well...tell ya what. In 5 years or so, if the wall goes up, we can come back to this and if illegal immigration into america has dropped significantly or noticeably after the wall and the cost of maintenance continues to be viable. I'll admit I was wrong and walls work well. They haven't really worked all that well historically though.



posted on Jan, 10 2019 @ 03:02 PM
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a reply to: dug88




Yeah...but the wall is proposed as a solution to illegal immigration.


This is what I don't understand. If these folks are paying $$$ coyotes to guide them through the desert, risk rape, starvation, dying of thirst, then why don't they just jump on a cheap flight to Canada ($300) and walk over the immense boarder to the US side?

Oh right, they do.



posted on Jan, 10 2019 @ 03:03 PM
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originally posted by: dug88
How would a wall have stopped these 600,000 people from being in america illegally in 2017?


Youre absolutely right, we need to stop issueing visas and deport those who are on them currently.

Good thinking!



posted on Jan, 10 2019 @ 03:03 PM
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Dubba
edit on 1 10 2019 by caterpillage because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 10 2019 @ 03:04 PM
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originally posted by: dug88

originally posted by: Propagandalf

originally posted by: dug88

originally posted by: Propagandalf

originally posted by: dug88

originally posted by: Propagandalf

originally posted by: dug88

originally posted by: Propagandalf

originally posted by: dug88
How would a wall have stopped these 600,000 people from being in america illegally in 2017?


The wall is being proposed along the US/Mexico border, not at legal points of entry.


Yeah...but the wall is proposed as a solution to illegal immigration. I'm guessing less than 600,000 people crossed that border in the same time period. I just think the wall is probably the least effective solution to the problem rather than that it won't work. It's a bunch of money to stop a very small percentage of illegal immigration when less money could be spent on more effective measures.


Obviously the wall is concerned with those who refuse to enter through legal points of entry along the southern border. I don't think anyone implied it is going to stop those who overstay their welcome.


Yeah....that's worth $23 billion. The arguments I see is that...illegal immigration takes jobs, it allows criminals into the country and generally lowers the quality of life for people in said country. Personally...if my government were going to spend $23 billion to tackle such a problem, I would prefer something that actually decreases the numbers of illegal immigrants within the country and deals with with mass corruption allowing them to stay rather than these mystery people running across open desert into america.

But I guess it appeals more to fearful people to have a giant wall proposed than something like...we will spend money enforcing deportations and cracking down on businesses hiring and aiding illegal immigrants in the country or implementing proper border checks or ya know useful solutions that will actually decrease the number of illegal immigrants actually currently detrimenting your country.


It's a one time cost, excluding maintenance. In 2019 they are spending about the same on general border security. That's 22 percent higher than 2017. That number keeps climbing every year.

You'd rather people enter the country illegally without papers, without a security check, from the third-world, bringing in anything they want, than someone who enters legally but overstays their welcome?


No...I think whatever is guaranteed to stop and deal with the largest amount of people for the least amount of money is ideal.


Nothing works better and is more cost-effective than a massive barrier.


Alright well...tell ya what. In 5 years or so, if the wall goes up, we can come back to this and if illegal immigration into america has dropped significantly or noticeably after the wall and the cost of maintenance continues to be viable. I'll admit I was wrong and walls work well. They haven't really worked all that well historically though.


Again, this applies only to illegal border crossings along the southern border, not illegal immigration by other means.

Walls have always worked, and every wall is better at keeping people out than no wall.



posted on Jan, 10 2019 @ 03:06 PM
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I don't think anyone's saying walls don't work, at least no the rational people. I don't think anyone's saying that we don't need border security, at least not the rational people.

A wall by itself though is nothing. If you go to the most secure borders in the world, they are way more than walls...In a lot of cases it's more about towers, wire, fencing, other types of obstacles, drones etc.

We get too caught up in "we need a wall" and I get it, but. If you get this wall, then how much more money does it take for all the stuff that makes the wall/border actually secure. You're too focused on the wall.

And if you're talking about no borders, open borders, that's fine, but when you're talking about Mexico, you need to have some programs in place that beef up Mexican security/economy. How much would that cost?

Things to consider.

And to lighten the mood, I wish I knew how to imbed. There's a great Trump video going around from the mid 2000s with him talking about obstacles and saying. If you see concret wall in front of you go over, through or around it. But get to the other side. LOL I love it!

And keep in mind that it's a very secure border, which is what we want, but there is no wall running all the way across Korea.
edit on 10-1-2019 by amazing because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 10 2019 @ 03:07 PM
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originally posted by: FilthyUSMonkey
a reply to: dug88




Yeah...but the wall is proposed as a solution to illegal immigration.


This is what I don't understand. If these folks are paying $$$ coyotes to guide them through the desert, risk rape, starvation, dying of thirst, then why don't they just jump on a cheap flight to Canada ($300) and walk over the immense boarder to the US side?

Oh right, they do.



Canada won't let them in the country.... and if Canada was going to let them in the country, then odds are they can actually get a travel visa to the US and there is zero need to be running across the desert.

The folks crossing our southern border are not highly educated immigrants. These are people coming out the backwaters of Mexico and other south american states.



posted on Jan, 10 2019 @ 03:08 PM
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originally posted by: Propagandalf

originally posted by: dug88

originally posted by: Propagandalf

originally posted by: dug88

originally posted by: Propagandalf

originally posted by: dug88

originally posted by: Propagandalf

originally posted by: dug88

originally posted by: Propagandalf

originally posted by: dug88
How would a wall have stopped these 600,000 people from being in america illegally in 2017?


The wall is being proposed along the US/Mexico border, not at legal points of entry.


Yeah...but the wall is proposed as a solution to illegal immigration. I'm guessing less than 600,000 people crossed that border in the same time period. I just think the wall is probably the least effective solution to the problem rather than that it won't work. It's a bunch of money to stop a very small percentage of illegal immigration when less money could be spent on more effective measures.


Obviously the wall is concerned with those who refuse to enter through legal points of entry along the southern border. I don't think anyone implied it is going to stop those who overstay their welcome.


Yeah....that's worth $23 billion. The arguments I see is that...illegal immigration takes jobs, it allows criminals into the country and generally lowers the quality of life for people in said country. Personally...if my government were going to spend $23 billion to tackle such a problem, I would prefer something that actually decreases the numbers of illegal immigrants within the country and deals with with mass corruption allowing them to stay rather than these mystery people running across open desert into america.

But I guess it appeals more to fearful people to have a giant wall proposed than something like...we will spend money enforcing deportations and cracking down on businesses hiring and aiding illegal immigrants in the country or implementing proper border checks or ya know useful solutions that will actually decrease the number of illegal immigrants actually currently detrimenting your country.


It's a one time cost, excluding maintenance. In 2019 they are spending about the same on general border security. That's 22 percent higher than 2017. That number keeps climbing every year.

You'd rather people enter the country illegally without papers, without a security check, from the third-world, bringing in anything they want, than someone who enters legally but overstays their welcome?


No...I think whatever is guaranteed to stop and deal with the largest amount of people for the least amount of money is ideal.


Nothing works better and is more cost-effective than a massive barrier.


Alright well...tell ya what. In 5 years or so, if the wall goes up, we can come back to this and if illegal immigration into america has dropped significantly or noticeably after the wall and the cost of maintenance continues to be viable. I'll admit I was wrong and walls work well. They haven't really worked all that well historically though.


Again, this applies only to illegal border crossings along the southern border, not illegal immigration by other means.

Walls have always worked, and every wall is better at keeping people out than no wall.


Uhhh..well there's.the Berlin wall in recent history that didn't really work very well...then there's the korean DMZ that people manage to cross every year....Hmmmm the great wall of.China never worked. Walls between countries have never really stopped people.



posted on Jan, 10 2019 @ 03:10 PM
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a reply to: dug88




Uhhh..well there's.the Berlin wall in recent history that didn't really work very well...then there's the korean DMZ that people manage to cross every year....Hmmmm the great wall of.China never worked. Walls between countries have never really stopped people.


Would you say having no walls in those places was much better at stopping people from crossing?



posted on Jan, 10 2019 @ 03:10 PM
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a reply to: Propagandalf





A barrier is a common sense, tried and true method of security. Walls have been used for thousands of years, in one form or another, since the dawn of civilization.


I can add this piece of information, that is entirely anecdotal:

I was stationed near the Czech border in the 1980s. There was a "1 K zone" on the border, with NATO forces on one side and Soviet troops on the other. Each side had a very tall fence with razor wire on top. The 1 K field in between was said to have land mines. There were guard towers on both sides every few kilometers. Troops on both side patrolled with live ammo.

They had check points on the roads that went from East Germany to the Czech side, because some traffic was authorized.

That barrier worked pretty well from what I could see.I never had any doubt that I wanted to stay completely outside of those two fences. Pretty sure you would die in there.

So yes, fences and walls can work.

Anyone up for trying that stuff on the southern US border?

If so, explain. I am interested.

Thanks for your consideration.


edit on 10-1-2019 by FilthyUSMonkey because: spelling border wrong again!

edit on 10-1-2019 by FilthyUSMonkey because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 10 2019 @ 03:12 PM
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originally posted by: amazing
I don't think anyone's saying walls don't work, at least no the rational people. I don't think anyone's saying that we don't need border security, at least not the rational people.

A wall by itself though is nothing. If you go to the most secure borders in the world, they are way more than walls...In a lot of cases it's more about towers, wire, fencing, other types of obstacles, drones etc.

We get too caught up in "we need a wall" and I get it, but. If you get this wall, then how much more money does it take for all the stuff that makes the wall/border actually secure. You're too focused on the wall.

And if you're talking about no borders, open borders, that's fine, but when you're talking about Mexico, you need to have some programs in place that beef up Mexican security/economy. How much would that cost?

Things to consider.

And to lighten the mood, I wish I knew how to imbed. There's a great Trump video going around from the mid 2000s with him talking about obstacles and saying. If you see concret wall in front of you go over, through or around it. But get to the other side. LOL I love it!



They are saying, often quite literally, walls don't work.

Obviously there will be more than the wall. Trump's proposal for border security is public knowledge. It includes much more than a wall.



posted on Jan, 10 2019 @ 03:14 PM
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originally posted by: FilthyUSMonkey
a reply to: Propagandalf





A barrier is a common sense, tried and true method of security. Walls have been used for thousands of years, in one form or another, since the dawn of civilization.


I can add this piece of information, that is entirely anecdotal:

I was stationed near the Czech border in the 1980s. There was a "1 K zone on the boarder, with NATO forces on one side and Soviet troops on the other. Each side had a very tall fence with razor wire on op. The 1 K field in between was said to have land mines. There were guard towers on both sides every few kilometers. Troops on both side patrolled with live ammo.

They had check points on the roads that went from East Germany to the Czech side, because some traffic was authorized.

That barrier worked pretty well from what I could see.I never had any doubt that I wanted to stay completely outside of those two fences. Pretty sure you would die in there.

So yes, fences and walls can work.

Anyone up for trying that stuff on the southern US border?

If so, explain. I am interested.

Thanks for your consideration.



Thanks for sharing that story.

Of course walls work! I really can't understand why people are trying to argue otherwise. The opposite of a wall is no wall.



posted on Jan, 10 2019 @ 03:15 PM
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originally posted by: dug88

originally posted by: Propagandalf

originally posted by: dug88

originally posted by: Propagandalf

originally posted by: dug88

originally posted by: Propagandalf

originally posted by: dug88

originally posted by: Propagandalf

originally posted by: dug88

originally posted by: Propagandalf

originally posted by: dug88
How would a wall have stopped these 600,000 people from being in america illegally in 2017?


The wall is being proposed along the US/Mexico border, not at legal points of entry.


Yeah...but the wall is proposed as a solution to illegal immigration. I'm guessing less than 600,000 people crossed that border in the same time period. I just think the wall is probably the least effective solution to the problem rather than that it won't work. It's a bunch of money to stop a very small percentage of illegal immigration when less money could be spent on more effective measures.


Obviously the wall is concerned with those who refuse to enter through legal points of entry along the southern border. I don't think anyone implied it is going to stop those who overstay their welcome.


Yeah....that's worth $23 billion. The arguments I see is that...illegal immigration takes jobs, it allows criminals into the country and generally lowers the quality of life for people in said country. Personally...if my government were going to spend $23 billion to tackle such a problem, I would prefer something that actually decreases the numbers of illegal immigrants within the country and deals with with mass corruption allowing them to stay rather than these mystery people running across open desert into america.

But I guess it appeals more to fearful people to have a giant wall proposed than something like...we will spend money enforcing deportations and cracking down on businesses hiring and aiding illegal immigrants in the country or implementing proper border checks or ya know useful solutions that will actually decrease the number of illegal immigrants actually currently detrimenting your country.


It's a one time cost, excluding maintenance. In 2019 they are spending about the same on general border security. That's 22 percent higher than 2017. That number keeps climbing every year.

You'd rather people enter the country illegally without papers, without a security check, from the third-world, bringing in anything they want, than someone who enters legally but overstays their welcome?


No...I think whatever is guaranteed to stop and deal with the largest amount of people for the least amount of money is ideal.


Nothing works better and is more cost-effective than a massive barrier.


Alright well...tell ya what. In 5 years or so, if the wall goes up, we can come back to this and if illegal immigration into america has dropped significantly or noticeably after the wall and the cost of maintenance continues to be viable. I'll admit I was wrong and walls work well. They haven't really worked all that well historically though.


Again, this applies only to illegal border crossings along the southern border, not illegal immigration by other means.

Walls have always worked, and every wall is better at keeping people out than no wall.


Uhhh..well there's.the Berlin wall in recent history that didn't really work very well...then there's the korean DMZ that people manage to cross every year....Hmmmm the great wall of.China never worked. Walls between countries have never really stopped people.


Again, a few instances of people getting across does not mean the barrier doesn't work. Miillions of people are in NK and only handful make it across the DMZ. I'd say it is quite effective. I think about 1000 NK defect every year but that isn't the same as making it across the DMZ.

You aren't making any sense....

Do you remove prison walls because one or two people manage to escape? Do you not keep money in a safe because a bank somewhere gets robbed?

There are ALWAYS exceptions. The point is that you are addressing the bulk of the issue, not expecting 100% success as that is impossible.



posted on Jan, 10 2019 @ 03:16 PM
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a reply to: Propagandalf

Most illegal people here in America, did not cross into the country in Mexico.


Also, the international boundary is the second largest undefended border. If we are going to put a wall in Mexico, why not there?

A wall will not stop drugs, it may deter some people. Until they dig tunnels. The drugs can be delivered by drones. Over the wall in seconds.
edit on 10-1-2019 by iplay1up2 because: Fix



posted on Jan, 10 2019 @ 03:18 PM
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originally posted by: iplay1up2
a reply to: Propagandalf

Most illegal people here in America, did not cross into the country in Mexico.


Also, the international boundary is the second largest undefended border. Are we going to put a wall in Mexico, why not there?

A wall will not stop drugs, it may deter some people. Until they find a tunnel. The drugs can be delivered by drones. Over the wall in seconds.


You're right, and although I'm not a Trump Supporter, I still think we need some kind of Secure border. No?



posted on Jan, 10 2019 @ 03:19 PM
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Jim Acoustic just proved otherwise lol


www.foxnews.com...



posted on Jan, 10 2019 @ 03:21 PM
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a reply to: Edumakated





Canada won't let them in the country.... and if Canada was going to let them in the country, then odds are they can actually get a travel visa to the US and there is zero need to be running across the desert.


But I keep hearing about these coyotes who charge $$$$ in the thousands for guiding folks across the desert. You would think for those bucks the refugees could get a pass port and visa, and then fly. Get a tourist visa. Every country I have applied to for tourist visa since 9/11 have never blinked at giving me one.



posted on Jan, 10 2019 @ 03:21 PM
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originally posted by: iplay1up2
a reply to: Propagandalf

Most illegal people here in America, did not cross into the country in Mexico.


Also, the international boundary is the second largest undefended border. Are we going to put a wall in Mexico, why not there?

A wall will not stop drugs, it may deter some people. Until they find a tunnel. The drugs can be delivered by drones. Over the wall in seconds.


I'm not sure why you guys say those who break into the country are the same as those who come through legal points of entry and overstay their welcome. That's not the case.

And you're right, it will not stop everyone. Would you stop using a condom because it does not stop pregnancy or STDs 100% of the time?



posted on Jan, 10 2019 @ 03:21 PM
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a reply to: amazing

Border security for sure. Including more outposts along the border. With added high tech surveillance and such. So we can detain them. Also we should make the punishment greater, for anyone found crossing in after a certain date. So they get fair warning, no more.


Asylum seekers are different, IF THEY ARE NOT ABUSING OUR SYSTEM, AND DESERVE ASYLUM.



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